Crisis in Venezuela

[Skye]

https://twitter.com/BBCBreaking/status/1092355124385730560
https://twitter.com/sebastiankurz/status/1092350419601375233
Kurz also recognizes Guaidó unequivocally.

[Gass3268]

UK, Spain and France were also joined by Germany, Poland, Latvia and Denmark.

https://twitter.com/marianaatencio/status/1092411214867644417

[Sir Mohamed]

Fine decisions on the part of Europeans. Whether it changes much is another question. As long as Maduro has support from the military, it's complicated.

[Frodo]

Fine decisions on the part of Europeans. Whether it changes much is another question. As long as Maduro has support from the military, it's complicated.

He may have support from the military, but it is hardly monolithic.  Do we know how the rank and file feel about Maduro's regime, and whether it differs from the top brass who command them? 

[Senator-elect Spark]

So right now the people of Venezuela are protesting in the streets and I just wrote an article about this for my school newspaper.

Have will this political crisis be resolved, if at all?

[PSOL]

So right now the people of Venezuela are protesting in the streets and I just wrote an article about this for my school newspaper.

Have will this political crisis be resolved, if at all?

The army isn’t detecting against the Chavistas enough nor is the Opposition united nor widespread in demographic appeal to have one protest to bring out the government right now. I suspect a pointless civil war with Maduro ultimately staying.

[WMS]

The thing that gets me about this thread is how well it illustrates a division in The Left I have noticed for some time.

On one side, you have your social democrats and perhaps the democratic socialists. Their goal is to help the less powerful in society and to help all people be able to participate in a democratic society. I call this the 'Scandinavian approach'. Yes I am aware there are imperfections and issues with this approach but on the whole it is one I approve of.

On the other side, you have the Hard Left. Their main motivating factor, as far as I can determine, is hatred of the West in general and the United States in particular, as well as the attainment of power at any costs to force an agenda of what seems to be the supremacy of the state, ostensibly for reasons of helping the less powerful but from what I can tell mainly to replace the old elites with themselves. There are various names I could call this but the 'Cuban approach' should press the right buttons. I very strongly oppose this approach as inexorably leading to totalitarian regimes with massive doses of hypocrisy.

Venezuela has been darkly fascinating for how much the Hard Left WILL NOT BUDGE in supporting the Chavistas, no matter how corrupt and oppressive they act, nor how much suffering they inflict on the people they claim to support. Consistently, EVERYTHING is the fault of the United States, and/or the West as a whole, or the imperialist/corporatist/warmongering/etc forces of international capital, or Donald Trump, and so on. This isn't the only case where this applies, but this is a thread about Venezuela after all.

The Hard Left just can not or will not engage in any self-reflection over the types of things they support. It is quite possible to both oppose abuses by multinationals and also oppose abuses by state regimes as well. One can oppose both Monsanto and Maduro, both Pinochet and Pyongyang.

I find it frankly horrifying how, both in Venezuela and in, oh, Nicaragua, the hard left governments can kill hundreds of protesters and there will be either silence or excuses from certain quarters. If something is a violation of human rights, the ideology of who commits it shouldn't mean anything.

[PSOL]

The thing that gets me about this thread is how well it illustrates a division in The Left I have noticed for some time.

On one side, you have your social democrats and perhaps the democratic socialists. Their goal is to help the less powerful in society and to help all people be able to participate in a democratic society. I call this the 'Scandinavian approach'. Yes I am aware there are imperfections and issues with this approach but on the whole it is one I approve of.

On the other side, you have the Hard Left. Their main motivating factor, as far as I can determine, is hatred of the West in general and the United States in particular, as well as the attainment of power at any costs to force an agenda of what seems to be the supremacy of the state, ostensibly for reasons of helping the less powerful but from what I can tell mainly to replace the old elites with themselves. There are various names I could call this but the 'Cuban approach' should press the right buttons. I very strongly oppose this approach as inexorably leading to totalitarian regimes with massive doses of hypocrisy.

Venezuela has been darkly fascinating for how much the Hard Left WILL NOT BUDGE in supporting the Chavistas, no matter how corrupt and oppressive they act, nor how much suffering they inflict on the people they claim to support. Consistently, EVERYTHING is the fault of the United States, and/or the West as a whole, or the imperialist/corporatist/warmongering/etc forces of international capital, or Donald Trump, and so on. This isn't the only case where this applies, but this is a thread about Venezuela after all.

The Hard Left just can not or will not engage in any self-reflection over the types of things they support. It is quite possible to both oppose abuses by multinationals and also oppose abuses by state regimes as well. One can oppose both Monsanto and Maduro, both Pinochet and Pyongyang.

I find it frankly horrifying how, both in Venezuela and in, oh, Nicaragua, the hard left governments can kill hundreds of protesters and there will be either silence or excuses from certain quarters. If something is a violation of human rights, the ideology of who commits it shouldn't mean anything.

Would being against US intervention in Venezuelan affairs be a “Hard-Left” position worth ridiculing, even if that individual is opposed to Maduro’s government to you.

Because I can tell you now, no matter what one may believe, it is not strategically viable for us here in the States nor good for the region to heavily intervene in Maduro’s removal.

[WMS]

Would being against US intervention in Venezuelan affairs be a “Hard-Left” position worth ridiculing, even if that individual is opposed to Maduro’s government to you.

Because I can tell you now, no matter what one may believe, it is not strategically viable for us here in the States nor good for the region to heavily intervene in Maduro’s removal.

No, as long as such a view is also consistent with being opposed to Russian, Chinese, and Cuban intervention in Venezuelan affairs as well.

Is providing humanitarian aid getting heavily involved? We're not alone in that effort.

[PSOL]

Would being against US intervention in Venezuelan affairs be a “Hard-Left” position worth ridiculing, even if that individual is opposed to Maduro’s government to you.

Because I can tell you now, no matter what one may believe, it is not strategically viable for us here in the States nor good for the region to heavily intervene in Maduro’s removal.

No, as long as such a view is also consistent with being opposed to Russian, Chinese, and Cuban intervention in Venezuelan affairs as well.

Is providing humanitarian aid getting heavily involved? We're not alone in that effort.

It’s questionable to not allow a neutral party, such as the UN, be involved in distributing the aide to the most needy. What the United States is doing is allowing Opposition-backed NGO’s distribute aide. There could be an abuse of such a relationship so as to prove to the Venezuelan people that backing Guiadó would lead to an end to the crisis, and a more short-term bribe of allegiance now.

[WMS]

It’s questionable to not allow a neutral party, such as the UN, be involved in distributing the aide to the most needy. What the United States is doing is allowing Opposition-backed NGO’s distribute aide. There could be an abuse of such a relationship so as to prove to the Venezuelan people that backing Guiadó would lead to an end to the crisis, and a more short-term bribe of allegiance now.

Err...hasn't Maduro outright refused to let any international aid into Venezuela?

Why yes, that is EXACTLY the case: Look here...

[American2020]

I consider both Maduro and Trump as symbols of hardcore populists from left and right.
I don't agree with hawks like Bolton and abrams, but I don't stand with hard-left supporting Maduro, especially after seeing the dramatic social and economical situation in Venezuela.
Populism offers only ephemeral dreams and the consequences are desastrous.

I've alternative to Abrams: Bill Richardson, Jimmy Carter or other.

[WMS]

I agree that the Trump Administration is not the right one to handle this problem. Why not Bill Richardson? If nothing else, I'm curious what conclusion he would come to...

[PSOL]

It’s questionable to not allow a neutral party, such as the UN, be involved in distributing the aide to the most needy. What the United States is doing is allowing Opposition-backed NGO’s distribute aide. There could be an abuse of such a relationship so as to prove to the Venezuelan people that backing Guiadó would lead to an end to the crisis, and a more short-term bribe of allegiance now.

Err...hasn't Maduro outright refused to let any international aid into Venezuela?

Why yes, that is EXACTLY the case: Look here...

I recant my statement on US aide. It is the least bad alternative thanks to the continued inept maliciousness of Maduro. The rest still stands though at this time.

[WMS]

I hope that there will be a peaceful transition to a democratic government which doesn't starve the population while raking in massive illicit gains. I'm not holding my breath though...

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

Let's be honest here, the "Maduro is good because American imperialism" point of view is just as morally reprehensible as a Cold War-era "well, he's a murderous bastard, but at least he's sufficiently anti-communist" mentality.

There's a fair difference between not wanting the U.S., or some other foreign country, to use the crisis in Venezuela for its own advantage, and realizing Maduro has long lost his legitimacy and that we should support the people of Venezuela's struggle to free themselves from that corrupt, disastrous regime.

[WMS]

Let's be honest here, the "Maduro is good because American imperialism" point of view is just as morally reprehensible as a Cold War-era "well, he's a murderous bastard, but at least he's sufficiently anti-communist" mentality.

There's a fair difference between not wanting the U.S., or some other foreign country, to use the crisis in Venezuela for its own advantage, and realizing Maduro has long lost his legitimacy and that we should support the people of Venezuela's struggle to free themselves from that corrupt, disastrous regime.

Two sides of a mirror, isn't it?

As long as the section I emphasized above is followed I can respect that view. It's the people who scream about U.S. interference but are awfully quiet about Russian, Chinese, Cuban, etc. interference that make me roll my eyes.

[CatoMinor]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-47325201

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[Skye]

Just a quick bump to this thread to say that Venezuela is currently clocking at 50+ hours without electricity. Because chavismo.

[American2020]

Just a quick bump to this thread to say that Venezuela is currently clocking at 50+ hours without electricity. Because chavismo.

https://twitter.com/sotiridi/status/1104467982032535552

https://twitter.com/NicolasMaduro/status/1103822286422003713?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw...

[American2020]

https://twitter.com/ChinaDaily/status/1105427446252347394

https://twitter.com/caroline_bcn3/status/1105434622391918592

[dead0man]

man, when is that invasion going to happen.  The US military "massed" on the border more than a week ago, what's taking them so long? : )

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

man, when is that invasion going to happen.  The US military "massed" on the border more than a week ago, what's taking them so long? : )

Or maybe the invasion is ongoing, but it's too secret for Maduro to notice?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Guaido's chief of staff kidnapped.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

Let's be honest here, the "Maduro is good because American imperialism" point of view is just as morally reprehensible as a Cold War-era "well, he's a murderous bastard, but at least he's sufficiently anti-communist" mentality.

There's a fair difference between not wanting the U.S., or some other foreign country, to use the crisis in Venezuela for its own advantage, and realizing Maduro has long lost his legitimacy and that we should support the people of Venezuela's struggle to free themselves from that corrupt, disastrous regime.

I broadly agree, but "support" is a very imprecise word. It's a spectrum, with "thoughts and prayers" on one end, and "Afghanistan, Iraq & Vietnam" at the other. While I support continuing our existing treaties for the immediate future, I also think entangling ourselves in military adventurism (for supposedly "good" motives or not) is a bad idea.