The Ik, A Libertarian Tribe of Uganda

[Emsworth]

Humans learned thousands of years ago to work as a team, as part of a community; and that it is to the mutual benefit of everyone to cooperate together.  That is an important concept.

It does not follow that anyone should be forced to work with another person.

[Bleeding heart conservative, HTMLdon]

I believe self-interest can be a positive motivating factor for good.  The problem is that people do not see their actual self-interest, but instead see only their apparent self-interest.

I firmly believe in Capitalism, but not because of some moral hoo-hah.  I believe in it because it has proven in practice to, with some government action, cause the most wealth to be generated to benefit the most people.  The key is that we have to have a very limited amount of government action to make this possible, otherwise unfettered Capitalism fails just as miserably as unfettered Communism.

People must be educated to see that their actual self-interest, the good of the community, does them more good than what sometimes appears as their self-interest.

[Bono]

I believe self-interest can be a positive motivating factor for good.  The problem is that people do not see their actual self-interest, but instead see only their apparent self-interest.

And of course, their real self-interest shall be determined by you.

[John Dibble]

I believe self-interest can be a positive motivating factor for good.  The problem is that people do not see their actual self-interest, but instead see only their apparent self-interest.

I would agree with this - reasoned self-interest usually has far better long term results than apparent self interest. Basically the difference is thinking long term.

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I believe in capitalism for both practical and moral reasons, but I would also agree some minimal government involvement is necessary(though we probably disagree on what exactly is needed). For instance, the government should enforce contracts by punishing those who decide not to follow them. Though, I would disagree that unfettered capitalism would fail as misearbly as communism, because those businesses and people who regularly screw people over wouldn't be successful because nobody would trust them enough to do business with them in the long term, while trustworthy businesses and people would still get those benefits(though I would admit that more people would get screwed over without some government involvement).

[jokerman]

I believe self-interest can be a positive motivating factor for good.  The problem is that people do not see their actual self-interest, but instead see only their apparent self-interest.

And of course, their real self-interest shall be determined by you.

Their self interest shall be determined by a democratic majority of their decision.

[Bono]

I believe self-interest can be a positive motivating factor for good.  The problem is that people do not see their actual self-interest, but instead see only their apparent self-interest.

And of course, their real self-interest shall be determined by you.

Their self interest shall be determined by a democratic majority of their decision.

Majority of their decision is an oxymoron.
That's just mob rule.
And besides that, what makes a majority more qualified to know about a person's self-interest than that person. Seems to me a majority would have much less acess to information.

[Emsworth]

I believe self-interest can be a positive motivating factor for good.  The problem is that people do not see their actual self-interest, but instead see only their apparent self-interest.

And of course, their real self-interest shall be determined by you.

Their self interest shall be determined by a democratic majority.

Once we accept this philosophy, we will have ceased to be our own rulers. We will have forsaken our liberty, lost our freedom, and resigned our destinies into the hands of the mob.

Tyranny of the many is no better than tyranny of the few. Tyranny is still tyranny, even if it is supported by the majority.

[jokerman]

I believe self-interest can be a positive motivating factor for good.  The problem is that people do not see their actual self-interest, but instead see only their apparent self-interest.

And of course, their real self-interest shall be determined by you.

Their self interest shall be determined by a democratic majority.

Once we accept this philosophy, we will have ceased to be our own rulers. We will have forsaken our liberty, lost our freedom, and resigned our destinies into the hands of the mob.

Tyranny of the many is no better than tyranny of the few. Tyranny is still tyranny, even if it is supported by the majority.

Enslavement and tyranny can come from poverty and big business as well as government intervention. 

[Emsworth]

Enslavement and tyranny can come from poverty and big business as well as government intervention. 

There is no enslavement when one enters into employment voluntarily. With businesses, one has the choice of entering or not entering into a contract. With government, however, one has no choice at all.

[Bono]

Enslavement and tyranny can come from poverty and big business as well as government intervention. 

There is no enslavement when one enters into employment voluntarily. With businesses, one has the choice of entering or not entering into a contract. With government, however, one has no choice at all.

Actualy, with business it's not so straighforward.
Let's say I have no contact with a certain business until one day a spill from one of their products destroys one of my harvests. Why should I have to accept the limited liability that is imposed upon me by the state?

[Emsworth]

Let's say I have no contact with a certain business until one day a spill from one of their products destroys one of my harvests. Why should I have to accept the limited liability that is imposed upon me by the state?

Here, too, the coercion is the result of government action. Governments, not businesses, impose limited liability.

[Bono]

Let's say I have no contact with a certain business until one day a spill from one of their products destroys one of my harvests. Why should I have to accept the limited liability that is imposed upon me by the state?

Here, too, the coercion is the result of government action. Governments, not businesses, impose limited liability.

I agree, I was just pointing out that modern day busineses have little of laudable.

[jokerman]

Enslavement and tyranny can come from poverty and big business as well as government intervention. 

There is no enslavement when one enters into employment voluntarily. With businesses, one has the choice of entering or not entering into a contract. With government, however, one has no choice at all.

Those who collectively control all the wealth have no incentive to help the disadvantage and create equality of opportunity, but will want to create a permanent aristocracy.  In Government we can vote and choose what course it will take.  So, we can check the government but we as individuals have zero power of huge corporations.

[Bono]

Enslavement and tyranny can come from poverty and big business as well as government intervention. 

There is no enslavement when one enters into employment voluntarily. With businesses, one has the choice of entering or not entering into a contract. With government, however, one has no choice at all.

Those who collectively control all the wealth have no incentive to help the disadvantage and create equality of opportunity, but will want to create a permanent aristocracy.  In Government we can vote and choose what course it will take.  So, we can check the government but we as individuals have zero power of huge corporations.

It is government that gives power to those huge corporations with things like limited liability, government contracts, monopolies and protectionism.

[jokerman]

Enslavement and tyranny can come from poverty and big business as well as government intervention. 

There is no enslavement when one enters into employment voluntarily. With businesses, one has the choice of entering or not entering into a contract. With government, however, one has no choice at all.

Those who collectively control all the wealth have no incentive to help the disadvantage and create equality of opportunity, but will want to create a permanent aristocracy.  In Government we can vote and choose what course it will take.  So, we can check the government but we as individuals have zero power of huge corporations.

It is government that gives power to those huge corporations with things like limited liability, government contracts, monopolies and protectionism.

But without the government they would rule in a ogliarchical aristocracy anyway.  And it is proper that the goverment provides a fair arena so to speak for capitalists to compete, though under the Republican economic philosophy government is an institution created for leachlike corporations to feed off of.  I see the arguments that big government enhances the power of the rulling class but the people still can push to reform that.

[Bono]

Enslavement and tyranny can come from poverty and big business as well as government intervention. 

There is no enslavement when one enters into employment voluntarily. With businesses, one has the choice of entering or not entering into a contract. With government, however, one has no choice at all.

Those who collectively control all the wealth have no incentive to help the disadvantage and create equality of opportunity, but will want to create a permanent aristocracy.  In Government we can vote and choose what course it will take.  So, we can check the government but we as individuals have zero power of huge corporations.

It is government that gives power to those huge corporations with things like limited liability, government contracts, monopolies and protectionism.

But without the government they would rule in a ogliarchical aristocracy anyway. 

How can they do that without a government power tokeep competition from appearing?

[jokerman]

Enslavement and tyranny can come from poverty and big business as well as government intervention. 

There is no enslavement when one enters into employment voluntarily. With businesses, one has the choice of entering or not entering into a contract. With government, however, one has no choice at all.

Those who collectively control all the wealth have no incentive to help the disadvantage and create equality of opportunity, but will want to create a permanent aristocracy.  In Government we can vote and choose what course it will take.  So, we can check the government but we as individuals have zero power of huge corporations.

It is government that gives power to those huge corporations with things like limited liability, government contracts, monopolies and protectionism.

But without the government they would rule in a ogliarchical aristocracy anyway. 

How can they do that without a government power tokeep competition from appearing?

Competition would never have a chance to rise.  The sons of corporate rulers would inherit all of the wealth, and a permanent aristocracy would be the result. 

[Bono]

Enslavement and tyranny can come from poverty and big business as well as government intervention. 

There is no enslavement when one enters into employment voluntarily. With businesses, one has the choice of entering or not entering into a contract. With government, however, one has no choice at all.

Those who collectively control all the wealth have no incentive to help the disadvantage and create equality of opportunity, but will want to create a permanent aristocracy.  In Government we can vote and choose what course it will take.  So, we can check the government but we as individuals have zero power of huge corporations.

It is government that gives power to those huge corporations with things like limited liability, government contracts, monopolies and protectionism.

But without the government they would rule in a ogliarchical aristocracy anyway. 

How can they do that without a government power tokeep competition from appearing?

Competition would never have a chance to rise.  The sons of corporate rulers would inherit all of the wealth, and a permanent aristocracy would be the result. 

There would always be venture capitalists, people who would loan money, you name it. If someone could come up with a lucrative business idea, one of those would invest their money, since they would rather get richer than conspire to keep everyone down.