AOC's latest gaffe shows just how expensive Medicare for all would be

[Cold War Liberal]

Soon she will call for the government to seize the means of production. Are these the type of people we want in congress?

Yes?

[Badger]

Being a freshman Congresswoman isn't an excuse for making such uninformed statements to the public. If she doesn't understand what she's talking about, as she's clearly displayed many times, she shouldn't talk about it like she does. That applies to any politician, including Trump. When she continues doing this, people are right to call her out on it. She doesn't deserve a free pass.

As much as the left wants to claim that the right has an obsession with AOC, they really should be questioning why she brings criticism upon herself so often instead of staying quiet on issues she doesn't understand and preparing for her new job.

Your criticism would have been more credible if the majority of the Republican caucus weren't climate change deniers and creationists.

Your response would have been taken seriously if you bothered to read where I said this applied to any politician.

But the point remains, shouldn't this role perhaps, just possibly, apply a teensy-weensy bit more to the president of the United States then to a fresh woman in Congress? Particularly when by any meaningful objective standards the former does so on a far far greater and more numerous basis?

I'm not sure what part of "That applies to any politician, including Trump" is so difficult for you to understand. When Trump says dumb things, he deserves to be called out on it. When AOC says dumb things, she deserves it too. If people are dumb to think that being new to politics gives her a free pass, then the same should apply to Trump. To think otherwise is just being a hypocrite.

um
Except it isn't because Trump is in a much more powerful position. Trump being new to politics doesn't affect his power that much because there's only one president and he has vast powers designated by the constitution.

AOC, on the other hand, has her power noticeably reduced by her freshman status because seniority matters a lot in the House. So not identical situations at all.

All politicians should be held to that standard, regardless of position and how much power they hold.

And there we will fundamentally, passionately, disagree. I will readily call out and be much much more concerned about idiotic things that the president of the United States says then any member of Congress or, as I would apply from your line of argument, a state assemblyman, Village mayor, or Precinct committeeman.

Now how about in terms of quantity and size of misstatements at least?  By any relatively objective standard Trump says my nominally idiotic things, and it's not just that he says them, it's that he apparently believes them, more often than literally every Democratic member of Congress combined, and does so on a stupefying level of, well, stupidity that simply isn't comparable.

This situation is a perfect example. While AOC said some debatable, possibly foolish, numbers supporting medicare-for- all, Trump has, just within the last 48 hours for example, posted claims that somehow the Mueller investigation has absolved him of any collusion with Russia, and stated without an ounce of proof or factual basis that James Comey testimony before Congress was a giant pack of Lies.

The bottom line is Trump supporters literally have zero, I mean less than zero, moral Authority or credibility, to call any present member of Congress, at least Democrats since we don't have extremist habitual Liars like Louie gohmert and Steve King among others, when they ignore or at least shrug their shoulders over the fact that the president of the United States who may support literally lives in a fantasy world in his head which is primarily the result of arguable diagnosable mental illness.

[pbrower2a]

Yeah. 21T is what will probably be spent on HC in the next
So, would I want to spend 250 a month on insurance that I'll have to change each time I get a new job or 350 a month on taxes that goes with me and which I only pay when I'm not laid off? I mean, it's a good question. Right now, I'd be ok with expanding Obamacare to what it was when it was originally proposed or how Pelosi passed it. I get it. Too many people are dependent on the status quo to immediately nationalize a sixth of the economy. That girl I almost married almost voted for Romney over Obamacare because she was into hospital revenue.

Cute.  You really have no idea how expensive insurance is without subsidies from the tax system or employers or directly from the government, especially when you get old.  Here's a hint. IT"S DAMN EXPENSIVE!!!!  I'm a 50-55 year old non-smoker who gets his insurance from the Marketplace.  Pre-subsidy it's around $900/month. Thankfully, the subsidy cuts that down considerably, but it's still a pain.

You aren’t paying anywhere near $900 and in a single payer system you’d still probably pay less than you do now.  Healthy wealthy Ralphy might pay quite a bit more...but that’s a feature, not a flaw.

Angry_weasel knows what he’s talking about.  You’re just marveling at big trees with no concept of the forest you’re lost in.

I'll grant that single payer will reduce costs, but if you think it'll cut two-thirds of the cost, you're living in fantasyland. By one-third is possible, but going beyond that is going to lead to considerable impacts on quality and availability of care.  Already with some specialties, if you're on Medicaid, you're screwed. You may have to wait months if there's even a specialist available. Squeeze the turnip too much and there will be no more blood as health care providers leave the system to do other things that pay more.  Moreover, even if we were to get health care down to the fantasy one-third level, we're still talking an average of $800 per worker per month in costs.

You must remember an ultimate reality of the high cost of the medical system we have. Much of it isn't going into medical treatment per se. Inflated costs include easy profits for people who have no other way of a gravy train. Start with monopolistic pricing of prescription drugs and medical devices. Add to that the unusual feature of a for-profit bureaucracy that has every incentive to load costs onto any payer. Medical facilities have their 'edifice complex' which does wonders for building contractors and construction workers. In many communities the hospital is the biggest or second-biggest employer (the other is the school district, but at the least, public K-12 education is one of the most efficiently-run activities around). Then come lobbyists and ambulance-chasing attorneys.

Don't forget people who fail to take care of themselves. I need go into few details about such. Sure, I used a riding cart at Wal*Mart a couple times -- during gout attacks. If I can spend two hours in the store and leave with $15 in merchandise, I probably got a good hike in.

Then there are the outright crooks -- people who hustle the system with fraudulent claims. You know -- the fellow with a horrific back injury  who brags to his buddies about his perfect game bowling. (I got a backache so severe that it imitated a coronary and I got the coronary treatment.  Sure, someone else ended up paying for it, but I sought and got the least expensive treatment for the backache. Physical therapy -- no pills).

[Young Conservative]

Our healthcare is in part more expensive because we get more care per visit, pay our doctors more, and fund most of the world's drug and medical innovation with higher prices for drugs and our patent laws. When talking about more care, think that someone in the UK might not get an MRI, we readily offer them to people. When thinking of our medical innovation, think about how almost all major medical research and drug innovation is concentrated In the US. Heard an Obama Econ advisor speak about this before. We get more care, and its more expensive, but its also more preventative. Our 5 year cancer survival rate is the highest in the world, we don't ration care, anyone can receive the care they want, emergency rooms can't deny people. You can hate on our healthcare all that you want, but theres no place in the world id rather get a heart surgery done or be a doctor.

[Badger]

Our healthcare is in part more expensive because we get more care per visit, pay our doctors more, and fund most of the world's drug and medical innovation with higher prices for drugs and our patent laws. When talking about more care, think that someone in the UK might not get an MRI, we readily offer them to people. When thinking of our medical innovation, think about how almost all major medical research and drug innovation is concentrated In the US. Heard an Obama Econ advisor speak about this before. We get more care, and its more expensive, but its also more preventative. Our 5 year cancer survival rate is the highest in the world, we don't ration care, anyone can receive the care they want, emergency rooms can't deny people. You can hate on our healthcare all that you want, but theres no place in the world id rather get a heart surgery done or be a doctor.

Arguably true about the quality of our health care, but none of that has to do with, and in fact is short Changed by, the American Health insurance industry. It is the Achilles heel of our medical system. Thoroughly a bug and not a feature.

[ag]

I am amused how many ostensibly conservative and America-first posters seem to advocate for the US to continue to subsidize the rest of the world by providing research and developments others are using, but US (and, to a significant degree, US government) pay for. Where is this sudden internationalist impulse coming from?

[ag]

While, I would agree, US may be the best place to be a doctor or a medical researcher, I am not sure it is the best place to be a patient. In terms of life expectancy at birth US is somewhere between Taiwan and Bahrain, closer to Eastern Europe and Latin America than to the major Western European or Asian nations. And citizens of those nations get a few extra years of active life at a fraction of the cost. Unless one cares more about an MRI scan than about being, actually, alive, I do not see why would anybody express so much pride over the availability of the former. I mean, it is not like being inside an MRI machine is so much fun

BTW, it used to be that US was doing quite decently for the elderly, so that, conditional at being alive at 65 US was the place to be (which was a funny argument, considering those over 65 have always been enjoying Medicare), but I have just checked the latest data, and even there US is no longer doing that well. And, arguably, end-of-life expenditures in the US are doing a lot more to tax inheritances than all the estate taxes combined.

[Technocracy Timmy]

Where is this sudden internationalist impulse coming from?

Because they’ll say anything to own the libs and make sure non-whites in America don’t take their disability checks - uhh I mean “hard earned tax dollars”.

[dead0man]

I am amused how many ostensibly conservative and America-first posters seem to advocate for the US to continue to subsidize the rest of the world by providing research and developments others are using, but US (and, to a significant degree, US government) pay for. Where is this sudden internationalist impulse coming from?

we've subsidized their military for more than half a century, why should health care be any different?

While, I would agree, US may be the best place to be a doctor or a medical researcher, I am not sure it is the best place to be a patient. In terms of life expectancy at birth US is somewhere between Taiwan and Bahrain, closer to Eastern Europe and Latin America than to the major Western European or Asian nations. And citizens of those nations get a few extra years of active life at a fraction of the cost. Unless one cares more about an MRI scan than about being, actually, alive, I do not see why would anybody express so much pride over the availability of the former. I mean, it is not like being inside an MRI machine is so much fun

this only makes sense if you believe the difference in life expectancy is 100% health care related.

[Mr. Reactionary]

But the point remains, shouldn't this role perhaps, just possibly, apply a teensy-weensy bit more to the president of the United States then to a fresh woman in Congress?

You mean there haven't been eleventy billion threads here on Trump's stupidity and incompetence? How long did the thread on his phone autocorrect misspelling coffee get again? Like, we get it Trump is garbage. But this thread happens to be about dumb comrade AOC. Its totally possible to call out someone other than Trump for being dumb without a disclaimer reminding the TDS afflicted that "buh Trump is still a more evil Nazi Hitler of course."

[Badger]

But the point remains, shouldn't this role perhaps, just possibly, apply a teensy-weensy bit more to the president of the United States then to a fresh woman in Congress?

You mean there haven't been eleventy billion threads here on Trump's stupidity and incompetence? How long did the thread on his phone autocorrect misspelling coffee get again? Like, we get it Trump is garbage. But this thread happens to be about dumb comrade AOC. Its totally possible to call out someone other than Trump for being dumb without a disclaimer reminding the TDS afflicted that "buh Trump is still a more evil Nazi Hitler of course."

The problem is when the usual suspects,perpetually shrug off or defend Trump raving like a literal loon on an almost daily basis, but jump on relatively slight gaffes by any member of team blue.

If there was anything close to the same level of approbation of Trump by said usual suspects, the hypocrisy and partisanship would be less subject to comment.

[Person Man]

But the point remains, shouldn't this role perhaps, just possibly, apply a teensy-weensy bit more to the president of the United States then to a fresh woman in Congress?

You mean there haven't been eleventy billion threads here on Trump's stupidity and incompetence? How long did the thread on his phone autocorrect misspelling coffee get again? Like, we get it Trump is garbage. But this thread happens to be about dumb comrade AOC. Its totally possible to call out someone other than Trump for being dumb without a disclaimer reminding the TDS afflicted that "buh Trump is still a more evil Nazi Hitler of course."

The problem is when the usual suspects,perpetually shrug off or defend Trump raving like a literal loon on an almost daily basis, but jump on relatively slight gaffes by any member of team blue.

If there was anything close to the same level of approbation of Trump by said usual suspects, the hypocrisy and partisanship would be less subject to comment.

It's called "living with your consequences" or "personal responsibility" or something they have very poor skills at but yet profess the importance of those skills. Perhaps they profess that these are the most important skills they say that anyone can have. This "paradox" is important here because these people have enabled someone who says all kinds of ignorant and demented things and they defend him. When he does well, it becomes apparent that the things he does are acceptable. When other people they disagree with do what Trump does on accident, they will attempt to avoid personal responsibility and the consequences of their past behavior by pretending what they allowed  Trump to do didn't happen. Consequently, they accuse the opposition of being malfeasant and incompetent by simply being inartful or getting carried away.

[All Along The Watchtower]

ITT Bad-Faith Concern Trolling

[ag]

this only makes sense if you believe the difference in life expectancy is 100% health care related.

It is not. But  there are no obvious other factors that would explain away the mediocrity of the US record. I mean, Latin Americans are poorer, less educated, eat equally fatty food, suffer from more crime (including murder), etc., etc. Yet, the gap in life expectancy between US and, say, Mexico, has been shrinking for a long time and is now pretty small. Adding the usual other explanatory variables would make it only worse.

[Bidenworth2020]

Does anyone else find the right's obsession with AOC downright disturbing

[Karpatsky]

American health care is only really 'superior' to the rest of the world at the high end of complicated, expensive, and cutting edge treatments. For most things it's the same treatment for an exorbitant price. My family (myself included) regularly has big-ticket stuff like dental work and surgery done in Ukraine instead of the U.S. for this reason.

I always encourage my American friends to go overseas for healthcare - to do it here is only to subsidize millionaires with rare heart conditions.