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136or142
Adam T
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« Reply #125 on: February 19, 2019, 12:03:57 AM »

He's really going to do it. He's really going to lose. Unbelievable.

I think it's more likely that Prime Minister Justin Trudeau resigns.  I certainly hope he is considering doing that.
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HagridOfTheDeep
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« Reply #126 on: February 19, 2019, 01:52:30 AM »

He's really going to do it. He's really going to lose. Unbelievable.

I think it's more likely that Prime Minister Justin Trudeau resigns.  I certainly hope he is considering doing that.

You must be kidding.
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136or142
Adam T
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« Reply #127 on: February 19, 2019, 02:00:07 AM »
« Edited: February 19, 2019, 02:19:33 AM by 136or142 »

He's really going to do it. He's really going to lose. Unbelievable.

I think it's more likely that Prime Minister Justin Trudeau resigns.  I certainly hope he is considering doing that.

You must be kidding.

His principle secretary just resigned in a way that made no sense "I'm resigning because I've done nothing wrong."  (He said he's resigning so that he can better defend himself.  Of course, to many people, his resignation will be seen as an admission of guilt, so he's hardly set himself up well.)

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is the only one on the ladder who's higher.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As to the scandal itself, there is no question the right wing media (Post Media, Global News and Corus Entertainment) and the Conservative Party are both completely insincere on this and only a fool could believe that a Conservative government under Andrew Scheer would not be more corrupt.

When the hysteria over the woman jailed in the healing lodge came up, the Liberals defended the decision to place her there by pointing out the independence of the prison system and the criminal justice system. At that time, the Conservatives and the right wing media argued "nobody understands or cares about an abstract issue like an independent criminal justice system, and nobody should care."

However, now both are insincerely claiming there is nothing more important than an independent judicial system. For both the Conservatives and the right wing media this is nothing more than scoring political points and trying to get resignations.  

That the noxious and hyper-partisan Pierre Polievre is one of the Conservative Party leads on this whole thing should tell everybody that Andrew Scheer and the Conservatives don't give a rat's ass about the underlying issue of an independent criminal justice system.

However, for people like me who do see the need for an independent criminal justice system, the evidence seems fairly clear that Prime Minister Justin Trudeau did attempt to interfere and therefore is not fit to be Prime Minister.

That Andrew Scheer is not fit to be Prime Minister is beyond clear.
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OSR stands with Israel
Computer89
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« Reply #128 on: February 19, 2019, 02:34:03 AM »

He's really going to do it. He's really going to lose. Unbelievable.

I think it's more likely that Prime Minister Justin Trudeau resigns.  I certainly hope he is considering doing that.

You must be kidding.


I would rather have Justin Trudeau and the Liberals lose in a landslide so Andrew Scheer has the mandate to accomplish all the things Stephen Harper was unable to do on his agenda and more.

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136or142
Adam T
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« Reply #129 on: February 19, 2019, 02:37:43 AM »

He's really going to do it. He's really going to lose. Unbelievable.

I think it's more likely that Prime Minister Justin Trudeau resigns.  I certainly hope he is considering doing that.

You must be kidding.


I would rather have Justin Trudeau and the Liberals lose in a landslide so Andrew Scheer has the mandate to accomplish all the things Stephen Harper was unable to do on his agenda and more.



You want to see Canada become as neo-feudalist as the United States is?
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Computer89
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« Reply #130 on: February 19, 2019, 03:52:03 AM »

He's really going to do it. He's really going to lose. Unbelievable.

I think it's more likely that Prime Minister Justin Trudeau resigns.  I certainly hope he is considering doing that.

You must be kidding.


I would rather have Justin Trudeau and the Liberals lose in a landslide so Andrew Scheer has the mandate to accomplish all the things Stephen Harper was unable to do on his agenda and more.



You want to see Canada become as neo-feudalist as the United States is?

No I want Canada to thrive economically like the US
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136or142
Adam T
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« Reply #131 on: February 19, 2019, 04:13:41 AM »

He's really going to do it. He's really going to lose. Unbelievable.

I think it's more likely that Prime Minister Justin Trudeau resigns.  I certainly hope he is considering doing that.

You must be kidding.


I would rather have Justin Trudeau and the Liberals lose in a landslide so Andrew Scheer has the mandate to accomplish all the things Stephen Harper was unable to do on his agenda and more.



You want to see Canada become as neo-feudalist as the United States is?

No I want Canada to thrive economically like the US

Canada's economy is doing fine in aggregate and is doing it without a $1 trillion annual federal budget deficit as has been temporarily boosting the U.S economy.

The last thing Canada needs is right wing economics that benefit the wealthy at the expense of everybody else, whether it's through allowing the environment to be used as a free dumping site, tax cuts for the wealthy that promote wealth inequality or what-have-you.
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DC Al Fine
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« Reply #132 on: February 19, 2019, 09:08:59 AM »

Ah sh-t.

There's an argument to be made that this is all the NDP's fault for bucking Tom Mulcair. He'd be ravaging the government on the daily in Question Period and come off like a reasonable, responsible, progressive leader. Instead there's bumbling Singh who has a snowflake's chance in Hell of presenting the NDP as a reasonable alternative to the Liberals.

But I digress.

NDP voters made a serious miscalculation. I know they wanted someone to outcharisma Trudeau but it's the Liberals. Something like this was bound to happen eventually.

The Conservatives are even more corrupt, they're just more brazen about it and they have most of the media on their side.

For instance, CBC did a series of stories about a decade ago on how the Conservatives helped the pipeline industry cover up oil spills, but outside of the CBC, it was never reported on.

For someone who goes to such efforts to chronicle GOP misbehaviour south of the border, that your first response to a Canadian Liberal scandal on Atlas was #BothSidesTenYearsAgo is rather telling.

Hacks gonna hack I guess.
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DC Al Fine
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« Reply #133 on: February 19, 2019, 09:16:48 AM »

He's really going to do it. He's really going to lose. Unbelievable.

I think it's more likely that Prime Minister Justin Trudeau resigns.  I certainly hope he is considering doing that.

You must be kidding.

Agreed. It would take a big smoking gun for the PM to resign, and even then, we're so close to an election its more likely the Liberals just go down in defeat with Trudeau rather than change leaders so late in the game.
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Ⓐnarchy in the ☭☭☭P!
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« Reply #134 on: February 19, 2019, 10:49:42 AM »

This is going to be a great election for the Greens and PPC.
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136or142
Adam T
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« Reply #135 on: February 19, 2019, 11:18:11 AM »
« Edited: February 19, 2019, 11:49:23 AM by 136or142 »

Ah sh-t.

There's an argument to be made that this is all the NDP's fault for bucking Tom Mulcair. He'd be ravaging the government on the daily in Question Period and come off like a reasonable, responsible, progressive leader. Instead there's bumbling Singh who has a snowflake's chance in Hell of presenting the NDP as a reasonable alternative to the Liberals.

But I digress.

NDP voters made a serious miscalculation. I know they wanted someone to outcharisma Trudeau but it's the Liberals. Something like this was bound to happen eventually.

The Conservatives are even more corrupt, they're just more brazen about it and they have most of the media on their side.

For instance, CBC did a series of stories about a decade ago on how the Conservatives helped the pipeline industry cover up oil spills, but outside of the CBC, it was never reported on.

For someone who goes to such efforts to chronicle GOP misbehaviour south of the border, that your first response to a Canadian Liberal scandal on Atlas was #BothSidesTenYearsAgo is rather telling.

Hacks gonna hack I guess.

Your argument was 'but it's the Liberals' which implies either that the Liberals are inherently corrupt or are worse than the other political parties.  What response other than what I gave would you expect?

If you want to see a Conservative Party hack, take a look in the mirror.
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DC Al Fine
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« Reply #136 on: February 19, 2019, 12:17:34 PM »

Ah sh-t.

There's an argument to be made that this is all the NDP's fault for bucking Tom Mulcair. He'd be ravaging the government on the daily in Question Period and come off like a reasonable, responsible, progressive leader. Instead there's bumbling Singh who has a snowflake's chance in Hell of presenting the NDP as a reasonable alternative to the Liberals.

But I digress.

NDP voters made a serious miscalculation. I know they wanted someone to outcharisma Trudeau but it's the Liberals. Something like this was bound to happen eventually.

The Conservatives are even more corrupt, they're just more brazen about it and they have most of the media on their side.

For instance, CBC did a series of stories about a decade ago on how the Conservatives helped the pipeline industry cover up oil spills, but outside of the CBC, it was never reported on.

For someone who goes to such efforts to chronicle GOP misbehaviour south of the border, that your first response to a Canadian Liberal scandal on Atlas was #BothSidesTenYearsAgo is rather telling.

Hacks gonna hack I guess.

Your argument was 'but it's the Liberals' which implies that the Liberals are inherently corrupt or are worse than the other political parties.  What response other than what I gave would you expect?

If you want to see a Conservative Party hack, take a look in the mirror.

You're missing my point entirely. My experience with you has been that you are very quick to discuss conservative scandals at home and abroad. If you want to argue about which parties are corrupt fine... But LavScam broke over a week ago. It's potentially a huge scandal in our own backyard. And you didn't say anything about it on Atlas for a week, and when you finally did comment, the first thing you posted was "Tories are bad too".

Looking through this thread, we see a Liberal scandal, and what do you post? A one liner about the PM and paragraphs and paragraphs about how the Tories are bad. Sounds like something a hack would do...If it looks like an anti-Tory hack and talks like a hack... well it's probably a hack.

But dont listen to me, I'm just a hack for a party I don't vote for half the time. After all I did complain about the Liberals being corrupt during a Liberal corruption scandal Roll Eyes
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136or142
Adam T
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« Reply #137 on: February 19, 2019, 01:34:19 PM »
« Edited: February 19, 2019, 02:18:32 PM by 136or142 »

Quote
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Just to back this up:
1.In regards to the healing lodge hysteria, the Conservative Party public safety critic called for Minister Ralph Goodale to personally overturn the decision.

When Goodale argued he did not have the power to do this based on the independence of the Criminal Justice System,  the right wing media (National Post, Corus Entertainment/Global News) argued seemingly all as one "the Liberals are going to have to come up with a better argument than some abstract principle that nobody understands or cares about in order to defuse this situation." (Andrew Coyne would likely have been an exception.)

2.The reports that Andrew Scheer was also meeting with executives from SNC Lavalin, and that this new deferred prosecution option was actually started during the previous Conservative Government. (I don't know if it ever got beyond the civil service stage at that point.)

3.The Conservatives using Pierre Polievre as their lead on this (along with Justice critic Lisa Raitt.)  Among other things, Pierre Polievre wore a shirt with a Conservative Party logo on it to an event that was supposed to be non-partisan in the lead-up to the last election.  I can't think of any greater dog-whistle the Conservatives could be sending to interested supporters of 'we're not actually interested in the independence of the judiciary' than making Pierre Polievre (who isn't even a lawyer) the co-lead on this file.

4.The Harper government using the Justice Minister as a partisan agent during their last term by passing several laws that it knew were unconstitutional just so they could be struck down by the courts, so the Conservatives could fund-raise off of that, and attempt to run against the courts.

In further regard to the right wing media  (of course, this highlights the opposite problem as well, that the institutions themselves can't be trusted to follow due process and equal protection) when Auditor General Michael Fraser's report on the Canada Revenue Agency came out, one of the problems it highlighted was the grossly favored treatment given to wealthy Canadians versus every other Canadian.

Both the Post Media Chain and the Star Chain reported on this report and bullet pointed several of the highlights in the report.  The Star Chain (I usually read the free Star Metro) mentioned this unequal treatment in a bullet point, the right wing Post Media Chain did not.
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BigSkyBob
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« Reply #138 on: February 19, 2019, 02:10:05 PM »

Ah sh-t.

There's an argument to be made that this is all the NDP's fault for bucking Tom Mulcair. He'd be ravaging the government on the daily in Question Period and come off like a reasonable, responsible, progressive leader. Instead there's bumbling Singh who has a snowflake's chance in Hell of presenting the NDP as a reasonable alternative to the Liberals.

But I digress.

NDP voters made a serious miscalculation. I know they wanted someone to outcharisma Trudeau but it's the Liberals. Something like this was bound to happen eventually.

The Conservatives are even more corrupt, they're just more brazen about it and they have most of the media on their side.

For instance, CBC did a series of stories about a decade ago on how the Conservatives helped the pipeline industry cover up oil spills, but outside of the CBC, it was never reported on.

For someone who goes to such efforts to chronicle GOP misbehaviour south of the border, that your first response to a Canadian Liberal scandal on Atlas was #BothSidesTenYearsAgo is rather telling.

Hacks gonna hack I guess.

Your argument was 'but it's the Liberals' which implies either that the Liberals are inherently corrupt or are worse than the other political parties.  What response other than what I gave would you expect?

If you want to see a Conservative Party hack, take a look in the mirror.

No, his argument simply notes that in this particular case the liberals fall under quite a cloud of suspicion and the other Canadian parties do not. If the accusation are true, then the real criminals sit in government, and not in opposition as you have quite bizarrely asserted previously.
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136or142
Adam T
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« Reply #139 on: February 19, 2019, 02:16:46 PM »
« Edited: February 19, 2019, 02:20:03 PM by 136or142 »

Ah sh-t.

There's an argument to be made that this is all the NDP's fault for bucking Tom Mulcair. He'd be ravaging the government on the daily in Question Period and come off like a reasonable, responsible, progressive leader. Instead there's bumbling Singh who has a snowflake's chance in Hell of presenting the NDP as a reasonable alternative to the Liberals.

But I digress.

NDP voters made a serious miscalculation. I know they wanted someone to outcharisma Trudeau but it's the Liberals. Something like this was bound to happen eventually.

The Conservatives are even more corrupt, they're just more brazen about it and they have most of the media on their side.

For instance, CBC did a series of stories about a decade ago on how the Conservatives helped the pipeline industry cover up oil spills, but outside of the CBC, it was never reported on.

For someone who goes to such efforts to chronicle GOP misbehaviour south of the border, that your first response to a Canadian Liberal scandal on Atlas was #BothSidesTenYearsAgo is rather telling.

Hacks gonna hack I guess.

Your argument was 'but it's the Liberals' which implies either that the Liberals are inherently corrupt or are worse than the other political parties.  What response other than what I gave would you expect?

If you want to see a Conservative Party hack, take a look in the mirror.

No, his argument simply notes that in this particular case the liberals fall under quite a cloud of suspicion and the other Canadian parties do not. If the accusation are true, then the real criminals sit in government, and not in opposition as you have quite bizarrely asserted previously.

His line 'but it's the Liberals' stems from a dishonest right wing Canadian narrative that the Liberal Party of Canada is uniquely corrupt and uniquely arrogant.  This is what my comment was addressing.

As my previous post shows, the Conservative Party is thoroughly corrupt. "Morally corrupt" as Maxime Bernier put it.

Nice attempt at a strawman argument though.
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BigSkyBob
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« Reply #140 on: February 20, 2019, 06:07:08 AM »

Ah sh-t.

There's an argument to be made that this is all the NDP's fault for bucking Tom Mulcair. He'd be ravaging the government on the daily in Question Period and come off like a reasonable, responsible, progressive leader. Instead there's bumbling Singh who has a snowflake's chance in Hell of presenting the NDP as a reasonable alternative to the Liberals.

But I digress.

NDP voters made a serious miscalculation. I know they wanted someone to outcharisma Trudeau but it's the Liberals. Something like this was bound to happen eventually.

The Conservatives are even more corrupt, they're just more brazen about it and they have most of the media on their side.

For instance, CBC did a series of stories about a decade ago on how the Conservatives helped the pipeline industry cover up oil spills, but outside of the CBC, it was never reported on.

For someone who goes to such efforts to chronicle GOP misbehaviour south of the border, that your first response to a Canadian Liberal scandal on Atlas was #BothSidesTenYearsAgo is rather telling.

Hacks gonna hack I guess.

Your argument was 'but it's the Liberals' which implies either that the Liberals are inherently corrupt or are worse than the other political parties.  What response other than what I gave would you expect?

If you want to see a Conservative Party hack, take a look in the mirror.

No, his argument simply notes that in this particular case the liberals fall under quite a cloud of suspicion and the other Canadian parties do not. If the accusation are true, then the real criminals sit in government, and not in opposition as you have quite bizarrely asserted previously.

His line 'but it's the Liberals' stems from a dishonest right wing Canadian narrative that the Liberal Party of Canada is uniquely corrupt and uniquely arrogant.  This is what my comment was addressing.

As my previous post shows, the Conservative Party is thoroughly corrupt. "Morally corrupt" as Maxime Bernier put it.

Nice attempt at a strawman argument though.

When you assert that pointing out that this Liberal government in this particular case may have acted in a corrupt fashion is the exact same thing as saying that the "Liberal Party is uniquely corrupt" is a classic example of putting words into another's mouth that they simply did not say so as to argue against a strawman rather than what they actually said.


Now, I understand that you have argued your subjective belief that the Conservative Party of Canada is "morally corrupt." That may, or may not, be true, but, in either case it is  totally irrelevant to any consideration as to whether, or not, the Liberal Party, or more specifically its Premier, acted in a corrupt fashion in this particular case.

My opinion is that paying brides is often a necessary condition for doing business in countries characterized by rampant corruption, and, that passing laws against such bribes, which is more accurately described as being extorted, is a pretentious moral posturing. However, my view didn't prevail, and, the law is what it is. If it is the law, there should be no exception for corporations too big to jail, or too big to fail.
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adma
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« Reply #141 on: February 20, 2019, 07:24:38 AM »

This thread's being, er, distracted by politics.  In the end, it's not about which side is *right* (or clean, or corrupt, or whatever), as much as it's about how the virtues and pitfalls communicate themselves to the voter. 

And at this point, it's still far from clear that it's all a fatal blow to Liberal chances--the election's still a ways off, and the presently-hobbled Libs can ultimately still generate a fair bit of not-the-Cons momentum.  (If this all happened midcampaign, as in the 2006 election, things would be a lot different.)
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DC Al Fine
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« Reply #142 on: February 20, 2019, 08:47:20 AM »

Ipsos has a new poll

36-34-17
No detailed splits that I could fine. Similar to the Campaign Research poll, it shows a modest bump for the Tories

This thread's being, er, distracted by politics.  In the end, it's not about which side is *right* (or clean, or corrupt, or whatever), as much as it's about how the virtues and pitfalls communicate themselves to the voter. 

And at this point, it's still far from clear that it's all a fatal blow to Liberal chances--the election's still a ways off, and the presently-hobbled Libs can ultimately still generate a fair bit of not-the-Cons momentum.  (If this all happened midcampaign, as in the 2006 election, things would be a lot different.)

Agreed. A knockout blow would require big news after summer break. For now the Tories and NDP are just going to have to hope for a drip drip of bad news stories adds up to something bigger.
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136or142
Adam T
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« Reply #143 on: February 20, 2019, 01:35:30 PM »
« Edited: February 20, 2019, 01:57:54 PM by 136or142 »

Ah sh-t.

There's an argument to be made that this is all the NDP's fault for bucking Tom Mulcair. He'd be ravaging the government on the daily in Question Period and come off like a reasonable, responsible, progressive leader. Instead there's bumbling Singh who has a snowflake's chance in Hell of presenting the NDP as a reasonable alternative to the Liberals.

But I digress.

NDP voters made a serious miscalculation. I know they wanted someone to outcharisma Trudeau but it's the Liberals. Something like this was bound to happen eventually.

The Conservatives are even more corrupt, they're just more brazen about it and they have most of the media on their side.

For instance, CBC did a series of stories about a decade ago on how the Conservatives helped the pipeline industry cover up oil spills, but outside of the CBC, it was never reported on.

For someone who goes to such efforts to chronicle GOP misbehaviour south of the border, that your first response to a Canadian Liberal scandal on Atlas was #BothSidesTenYearsAgo is rather telling.

Hacks gonna hack I guess.

Your argument was 'but it's the Liberals' which implies either that the Liberals are inherently corrupt or are worse than the other political parties.  What response other than what I gave would you expect?

If you want to see a Conservative Party hack, take a look in the mirror.

No, his argument simply notes that in this particular case the liberals fall under quite a cloud of suspicion and the other Canadian parties do not. If the accusation are true, then the real criminals sit in government, and not in opposition as you have quite bizarrely asserted previously.

His line 'but it's the Liberals' stems from a dishonest right wing Canadian narrative that the Liberal Party of Canada is uniquely corrupt and uniquely arrogant.  This is what my comment was addressing.

As my previous post shows, the Conservative Party is thoroughly corrupt. "Morally corrupt" as Maxime Bernier put it.

Nice attempt at a strawman argument though.

When you assert that pointing out that this Liberal government in this particular case may have acted in a corrupt fashion is the exact same thing as saying that the "Liberal Party is uniquely corrupt" is a classic example of putting words into another's mouth that they simply did not say so as to argue against a strawman rather than what they actually said.


Now, I understand that you have argued your subjective belief that the Conservative Party of Canada is "morally corrupt." That may, or may not, be true, but, in either case it is  totally irrelevant to any consideration as to whether, or not, the Liberal Party, or more specifically its Premier, acted in a corrupt fashion in this particular case.

My opinion is that paying brides is often a necessary condition for doing business in countries characterized by rampant corruption, and, that passing laws against such bribes, which is more accurately described as being extorted, is a pretentious moral posturing. However, my view didn't prevail, and, the law is what it is. If it is the law, there should be no exception for corporations too big to jail, or too big to fail.


Absolutely not.  The use of a phrase such as 'but it's the Liberals' doesn't come from nowhere.  I explained the narrative that buttresses the phrase and it's a false narrative.

This really isn't worth debating, especially with a person whose signature indicates they are a supporter of Traitor Trump.
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BigSkyBob
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« Reply #144 on: February 20, 2019, 05:51:02 PM »

Ah sh-t.

There's an argument to be made that this is all the NDP's fault for bucking Tom Mulcair. He'd be ravaging the government on the daily in Question Period and come off like a reasonable, responsible, progressive leader. Instead there's bumbling Singh who has a snowflake's chance in Hell of presenting the NDP as a reasonable alternative to the Liberals.

But I digress.

NDP voters made a serious miscalculation. I know they wanted someone to outcharisma Trudeau but it's the Liberals. Something like this was bound to happen eventually.

The Conservatives are even more corrupt, they're just more brazen about it and they have most of the media on their side.

For instance, CBC did a series of stories about a decade ago on how the Conservatives helped the pipeline industry cover up oil spills, but outside of the CBC, it was never reported on.

For someone who goes to such efforts to chronicle GOP misbehaviour south of the border, that your first response to a Canadian Liberal scandal on Atlas was #BothSidesTenYearsAgo is rather telling.

Hacks gonna hack I guess.

Your argument was 'but it's the Liberals' which implies either that the Liberals are inherently corrupt or are worse than the other political parties.  What response other than what I gave would you expect?

If you want to see a Conservative Party hack, take a look in the mirror.

No, his argument simply notes that in this particular case the liberals fall under quite a cloud of suspicion and the other Canadian parties do not. If the accusation are true, then the real criminals sit in government, and not in opposition as you have quite bizarrely asserted previously.

His line 'but it's the Liberals' stems from a dishonest right wing Canadian narrative that the Liberal Party of Canada is uniquely corrupt and uniquely arrogant.  This is what my comment was addressing.

As my previous post shows, the Conservative Party is thoroughly corrupt. "Morally corrupt" as Maxime Bernier put it.

Nice attempt at a strawman argument though.

When you assert that pointing out that this Liberal government in this particular case may have acted in a corrupt fashion is the exact same thing as saying that the "Liberal Party is uniquely corrupt" is a classic example of putting words into another's mouth that they simply did not say so as to argue against a strawman rather than what they actually said.


Now, I understand that you have argued your subjective belief that the Conservative Party of Canada is "morally corrupt." That may, or may not, be true, but, in either case it is  totally irrelevant to any consideration as to whether, or not, the Liberal Party, or more specifically its Premier, acted in a corrupt fashion in this particular case.

My opinion is that paying brides is often a necessary condition for doing business in countries characterized by rampant corruption, and, that passing laws against such bribes, which is more accurately described as being extorted, is a pretentious moral posturing. However, my view didn't prevail, and, the law is what it is. If it is the law, there should be no exception for corporations too big to jail, or too big to fail.


Absolutely not.  The use of a phrase such as 'but it's the Liberals' doesn't come from nowhere.  I explained the narrative that buttresses the phrase and it's a false narrative.

This really isn't worth debating, especially with a person whose signature indicates they are a supporter of Traitor Trump.

The phrase "but it's the Liberals'" certainly comes from somewhere, but, your claim that it is a statement that the Liberal Party of Canada is "uniquely corrupt" originates in your imagination. In this very thread you have bizarrely asserted that the Conservatives are especially corrupt by such means as guilt by association tactics and criminalizing politics. Well, folks on the other side are equally entitled to argue that the Liberal Party of Canada is especially corrupt, as well. But, you simply won't grant them that privilege. In an act of rhetoric that allows for no dissent from your viewpoint you claim that any noting of corruption by the Liberal Party of Canada, and more specifically its premier, is actually a claim that only corruption exists in one party. That is morally wrong, and, intellectually indefensible.
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adma
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« Reply #145 on: February 20, 2019, 05:54:14 PM »

Ipsos has a new poll

36-34-17
No detailed splits that I could fine. Similar to the Campaign Research poll, it shows a modest bump for the Tories

This thread's being, er, distracted by politics.  In the end, it's not about which side is *right* (or clean, or corrupt, or whatever), as much as it's about how the virtues and pitfalls communicate themselves to the voter. 

And at this point, it's still far from clear that it's all a fatal blow to Liberal chances--the election's still a ways off, and the presently-hobbled Libs can ultimately still generate a fair bit of not-the-Cons momentum.  (If this all happened midcampaign, as in the 2006 election, things would be a lot different.)

Agreed. A knockout blow would require big news after summer break. For now the Tories and NDP are just going to have to hope for a drip drip of bad news stories adds up to something bigger.

And whatever the scandal, either side is going to be handicapped for being "who they are" to a certain type of voter of an opposite inclination.  That's why holding-one's-nose strategic voting has *always* existed--indeed, it might be argued that the current Lib circumstance might ironically push *more* panicky voters (presumably of the ex-NDP/Green sort) into the Lib camp so as to desperately try to deny the Cons a majority...
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136or142
Adam T
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« Reply #146 on: February 20, 2019, 08:21:21 PM »

Ah sh-t.

There's an argument to be made that this is all the NDP's fault for bucking Tom Mulcair. He'd be ravaging the government on the daily in Question Period and come off like a reasonable, responsible, progressive leader. Instead there's bumbling Singh who has a snowflake's chance in Hell of presenting the NDP as a reasonable alternative to the Liberals.

But I digress.

NDP voters made a serious miscalculation. I know they wanted someone to outcharisma Trudeau but it's the Liberals. Something like this was bound to happen eventually.

The Conservatives are even more corrupt, they're just more brazen about it and they have most of the media on their side.

For instance, CBC did a series of stories about a decade ago on how the Conservatives helped the pipeline industry cover up oil spills, but outside of the CBC, it was never reported on.

For someone who goes to such efforts to chronicle GOP misbehaviour south of the border, that your first response to a Canadian Liberal scandal on Atlas was #BothSidesTenYearsAgo is rather telling.

Hacks gonna hack I guess.

Your argument was 'but it's the Liberals' which implies either that the Liberals are inherently corrupt or are worse than the other political parties.  What response other than what I gave would you expect?

If you want to see a Conservative Party hack, take a look in the mirror.

No, his argument simply notes that in this particular case the liberals fall under quite a cloud of suspicion and the other Canadian parties do not. If the accusation are true, then the real criminals sit in government, and not in opposition as you have quite bizarrely asserted previously.

His line 'but it's the Liberals' stems from a dishonest right wing Canadian narrative that the Liberal Party of Canada is uniquely corrupt and uniquely arrogant.  This is what my comment was addressing.

As my previous post shows, the Conservative Party is thoroughly corrupt. "Morally corrupt" as Maxime Bernier put it.

Nice attempt at a strawman argument though.

When you assert that pointing out that this Liberal government in this particular case may have acted in a corrupt fashion is the exact same thing as saying that the "Liberal Party is uniquely corrupt" is a classic example of putting words into another's mouth that they simply did not say so as to argue against a strawman rather than what they actually said.


Now, I understand that you have argued your subjective belief that the Conservative Party of Canada is "morally corrupt." That may, or may not, be true, but, in either case it is  totally irrelevant to any consideration as to whether, or not, the Liberal Party, or more specifically its Premier, acted in a corrupt fashion in this particular case.

My opinion is that paying brides is often a necessary condition for doing business in countries characterized by rampant corruption, and, that passing laws against such bribes, which is more accurately described as being extorted, is a pretentious moral posturing. However, my view didn't prevail, and, the law is what it is. If it is the law, there should be no exception for corporations too big to jail, or too big to fail.


Absolutely not.  The use of a phrase such as 'but it's the Liberals' doesn't come from nowhere.  I explained the narrative that buttresses the phrase and it's a false narrative.

This really isn't worth debating, especially with a person whose signature indicates they are a supporter of Traitor Trump.

The phrase "but it's the Liberals'" certainly comes from somewhere, but, your claim that it is a statement that the Liberal Party of Canada is "uniquely corrupt" originates in your imagination. In this very thread you have bizarrely asserted that the Conservatives are especially corrupt by such means as guilt by association tactics and criminalizing politics. Well, folks on the other side are equally entitled to argue that the Liberal Party of Canada is especially corrupt, as well. But, you simply won't grant them that privilege. In an act of rhetoric that allows for no dissent from your viewpoint you claim that any noting of corruption by the Liberal Party of Canada, and more specifically its premier, is actually a claim that only corruption exists in one party. That is morally wrong, and, intellectually indefensible.

Gibberish.
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Obama-Biden Democrat
Zyzz
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« Reply #147 on: February 20, 2019, 10:05:25 PM »

The NDP is a total disaster his year. I wonder if Charlie Angus would have done better. Less than a decade ago, people were saying the Liberals should disband and merge with the NDP.
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DC Al Fine
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« Reply #148 on: February 21, 2019, 06:08:33 AM »

Ipsos has a new poll

36-34-17
No detailed splits that I could fine. Similar to the Campaign Research poll, it shows a modest bump for the Tories

This thread's being, er, distracted by politics.  In the end, it's not about which side is *right* (or clean, or corrupt, or whatever), as much as it's about how the virtues and pitfalls communicate themselves to the voter. 

And at this point, it's still far from clear that it's all a fatal blow to Liberal chances--the election's still a ways off, and the presently-hobbled Libs can ultimately still generate a fair bit of not-the-Cons momentum.  (If this all happened midcampaign, as in the 2006 election, things would be a lot different.)

Agreed. A knockout blow would require big news after summer break. For now the Tories and NDP are just going to have to hope for a drip drip of bad news stories adds up to something bigger.

And whatever the scandal, either side is going to be handicapped for being "who they are" to a certain type of voter of an opposite inclination.  That's why holding-one's-nose strategic voting has *always* existed--indeed, it might be argued that the current Lib circumstance might ironically push *more* panicky voters (presumably of the ex-NDP/Green sort) into the Lib camp so as to desperately try to deny the Cons a majority...

Ah, shades of 2004-2006 Tongue
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adma
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« Reply #149 on: February 21, 2019, 07:31:40 AM »

And whatever the scandal, either side is going to be handicapped for being "who they are" to a certain type of voter of an opposite inclination.  That's why holding-one's-nose strategic voting has *always* existed--indeed, it might be argued that the current Lib circumstance might ironically push *more* panicky voters (presumably of the ex-NDP/Green sort) into the Lib camp so as to desperately try to deny the Cons a majority...

Ah, shades of 2004-2006 Tongue

Or for that matter, the 2010 Toronto mayoral election, where what was polling as a blowout for Rob Ford turned into a 47.1-35.6 Ford-Smitherman margin instead.  (And similarly in 2014, promiscuous progressives piling into the John Tory camp as an antidote to Doug Ford--and maybe provincially in 2018, where Premier Ford's winning margin was much tighter than anything that looked to be in the cards when Patrick Brown was PC leader.)
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