Prisoners Nationwide go on strike, protest "modern day slavery"

[NewYorkExpress]

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2018/08/21/prisoners-strike-protest-attica-lee-correctional/1045008002/

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[DavidB.]

It's not as if their work can't be missed. Good luck with it.

[Crumpets]

You have an uphill battle ahead of you when there's a constitutional amendment specifically carving out your cause as an exception to the rule.

[Devout Centrist]

It's not as if their work can't be missed. Good luck with it.

It’s especially important in combatting wildfires

[#gravelgang #lessiglad]

On one hand, of course there's marginal sympathy for criminals' rights. It's a basic human response to exhibit low amounts of sympathy for supposedly the worst elements of humankind. And to a certain degree, this is a sensible position; there's probably elements of society that are beyond redemption and to have those elements create any economic productivity is better than not.

On the other hand, there is the well documented racial trial and sentencing disparities. Which of course results in two things here: 1) you have the visceral connection of men of color to slavery; and 2) these slave wages only grow the colossal wealth and income gap between men of color and white men.

Think about this in the context of the sentencing disparity; Black men are 5.9 times more likely to be jailed than whites. Among those whose prosecution was recommended to the DA, black men were twice as likely to be charged with a crime than similarly situated white men. And similarly, black defendants are nearly twice as likely to be charged with crimes carrying mandatory minimum sentences, as opposed to being the benefit of prosecutorial discretion. Those men are spending a disproportionately high period of time earning slave wages than similarly situated white males who committed similar crimes.

So to the extent that this impacts individuals who committed their crime, were charged with an offense befitting that crime, were found guilty of that crime by a fair and impartial trial, received a sentence that is befitting that crime, I don't have a problem with the wages paid to criminals. But, the biases in the criminal justice system are so widespread and pervasive that this system only perpetuates an unconscionable system of racial discrimination whereby white men are either afforded opportunities that men of color are unlikely to be afforded or suffer consequences that are disproportionately low compared to men of color.

And one additional point here - apparently, some of these prisoners are making products for corporate sellers; it isn't simply pressing license plates for the State. Which contributes more to shareholder wealth, further exacerbating the wealth gap and wealth inequality.

[All Along The Watchtower]

Good. Prison is disgusting and should only be used to house the most dangerous among us, like the sociopathic monsters in the current presidential administration.

[Progressive Pessimist]

You have an uphill battle ahead of you when there's a constitutional amendment specifically carving out your cause as an exception to the rule.

In spite of all the good that the Thirteenth Amendment did, I always found that exception baffling. I guess it was a product of compromise.

[Alabama_Indy10]

Good. Prison is disgusting and should only be used to house the most dangerous among us, like the sociopathic monsters in the current presidential administration.

You’re not helping your argument.

[Alabama_Indy10]

Good. Prison is disgusting and should only be used to house the most dangerous among us, like the sociopathic monsters in the current presidential administration.

You’re not helping your argument.

And you're not helping perceptions of your IQ, what with your blue avatar and all.

Going after me isn’t helping your argument either. That the best you got?

[RFayette 🇻🇦]

You have an uphill battle ahead of you when there's a constitutional amendment specifically carving out your cause as an exception to the rule.

[Take your vitamins and say your prayers, Brother!]

Good. Prison is disgusting and should only be used to house the most dangerous among us, like the sociopathic monsters in the current presidential administration.

You’re not helping your argument.

And you're not helping perceptions of your IQ, what with your blue avatar and all.

Going after me isn’t helping your argument either. That the best you got?

Actually, it IS the best he's got.

[Mr. Reactionary]

Good. Prison is disgusting and should only be used to house the most dangerous among us, like the sociopathic monsters in the current presidential administration.

You’re not helping your argument.

And you're not helping perceptions of your IQ, what with your blue avatar and all.

He may have a blue avatar, but at least we know his IQ is likely higher than yours since you have "progressive" in your name.

[Progressive Pessimist]

Good. Prison is disgusting and should only be used to house the most dangerous among us, like the sociopathic monsters in the current presidential administration.

You’re not helping your argument.

And you're not helping perceptions of your IQ, what with your blue avatar and all.

He may have a blue avatar, but at least we know his IQ is likely higher than yours since you have "progressive" in your name.

IQ is a completely irrelevant measure of intellect or talent. All it proves is how well one does at taking an IQ test.

[Take your vitamins and say your prayers, Brother!]

On one hand, of course there's marginal sympathy for criminals' rights. It's a basic human response to exhibit low amounts of sympathy for supposedly the worst elements of humankind. And to a certain degree, this is a sensible position; there's probably elements of society that are beyond redemption and to have those elements create any economic productivity is better than not.

On the other hand, there is the well documented racial trial and sentencing disparities. Which of course results in two things here: 1) you have the visceral connection of men of color to slavery; and 2) these slave wages only grow the colossal wealth and income gap between men of color and white men.

Think about this in the context of the sentencing disparity; Black men are 5.9 times more likely to be jailed than whites. Among those whose prosecution was recommended to the DA, black men were twice as likely to be charged with a crime than similarly situated white men. And similarly, black defendants are nearly twice as likely to be charged with crimes carrying mandatory minimum sentences, as opposed to being the benefit of prosecutorial discretion. Those men are spending a disproportionately high period of time earning slave wages than similarly situated white males who committed similar crimes.

So to the extent that this impacts individuals who committed their crime, were charged with an offense befitting that crime, were found guilty of that crime by a fair and impartial trial, received a sentence that is befitting that crime, I don't have a problem with the wages paid to criminals. But, the biases in the criminal justice system are so widespread and pervasive that this system only perpetuates an unconscionable system of racial discrimination whereby white men are either afforded opportunities that men of color are unlikely to be afforded or suffer consequences that are disproportionately low compared to men of color.

And one additional point here - apparently, some of these prisoners are making products for corporate sellers; it isn't simply pressing license plates for the State. Which contributes more to shareholder wealth, further exacerbating the wealth gap and wealth inequality.

Are black males committing crimes at a higher rate than other demographics, and by a significant margin?

That's what's really driving the inequality; the fact that black males commit crimes at a higher rate per capita than any other demographic.

The issues of how criminal defendants are treated, once in the system, is somewhat relevant, but even then, what is the likelihood that a black defendant  has a more significant prior record than a white defendant?  Is all of this discrepancy due to these fort of systemic issues with the criminal justice system? 

Now I have no doubt that systemic biases in the criminal justice system leads to SOME of the discrepancies.  Some.  I believe that the poorer economic indicators for black males, as a demographic, drive the discrepancy somewhat.  But do these factors, and others make up the WHOLE discrepancy?  Do they make up even HALF of it?  I honestly don't know, but I have a tough time believing that even HALF the discrepancy is due to systemic bias.

Do we do a disservice in being reluctant to discussing crime rates among various demographics for what they are?  I think so, yes.  I think we can do so without being mean-spirited, and in a way that can result in massive societal change, but not talking about the discrepancy in the rate at which black males commit crimes vs. other demographics seems to reinforce the discrepancy.

[Badger]

Good. Prison is disgusting and should only be used to house the most dangerous among us, like the sociopathic monsters in the current presidential administration.

You’re not helping your argument.

And you're not helping perceptions of your IQ, what with your blue avatar and all.

He may have a blue avatar, but at least we know his IQ is likely higher than yours since you have "progressive" in your name.

Says the guy with "Reactionary" in his name....

[Sic Semper Fascistis]

Literal FFs.

[Sic Semper Fascistis]

You have an uphill battle ahead of you when there's a constitutional amendment specifically carving out your cause as an exception to the rule.

That the 13th amendment didn't abolish all forms of slavery doesn't mean the forms it didn't abolish aren't still slavery.

[Mr. Reactionary]

Good. Prison is disgusting and should only be used to house the most dangerous among us, like the sociopathic monsters in the current presidential administration.

You’re not helping your argument.

And you're not helping perceptions of your IQ, what with your blue avatar and all.

He may have a blue avatar, but at least we know his IQ is likely higher than yours since you have "progressive" in your name.

Says the guy with "Reactionary" in his name....

And here comes the battered wife to defend the person implying he also has a low IQ due to his blue avatar.

[#gravelgang #lessiglad]

On one hand, of course there's marginal sympathy for criminals' rights. It's a basic human response to exhibit low amounts of sympathy for supposedly the worst elements of humankind. And to a certain degree, this is a sensible position; there's probably elements of society that are beyond redemption and to have those elements create any economic productivity is better than not.

On the other hand, there is the well documented racial trial and sentencing disparities. Which of course results in two things here: 1) you have the visceral connection of men of color to slavery; and 2) these slave wages only grow the colossal wealth and income gap between men of color and white men.

Think about this in the context of the sentencing disparity; Black men are 5.9 times more likely to be jailed than whites. Among those whose prosecution was recommended to the DA, black men were twice as likely to be charged with a crime than similarly situated white men. And similarly, black defendants are nearly twice as likely to be charged with crimes carrying mandatory minimum sentences, as opposed to being the benefit of prosecutorial discretion. Those men are spending a disproportionately high period of time earning slave wages than similarly situated white males who committed similar crimes.

So to the extent that this impacts individuals who committed their crime, were charged with an offense befitting that crime, were found guilty of that crime by a fair and impartial trial, received a sentence that is befitting that crime, I don't have a problem with the wages paid to criminals. But, the biases in the criminal justice system are so widespread and pervasive that this system only perpetuates an unconscionable system of racial discrimination whereby white men are either afforded opportunities that men of color are unlikely to be afforded or suffer consequences that are disproportionately low compared to men of color.

And one additional point here - apparently, some of these prisoners are making products for corporate sellers; it isn't simply pressing license plates for the State. Which contributes more to shareholder wealth, further exacerbating the wealth gap and wealth inequality.

Are black males committing crimes at a higher rate than other demographics, and by a significant margin?

That's what's really driving the inequality; the fact that black males commit crimes at a higher rate per capita than any other demographic.

The issues of how criminal defendants are treated, once in the system, is somewhat relevant, but even then, what is the likelihood that a black defendant  has a more significant prior record than a white defendant?  Is all of this discrepancy due to these fort of systemic issues with the criminal justice system? 

Now I have no doubt that systemic biases in the criminal justice system leads to SOME of the discrepancies.  Some.  I believe that the poorer economic indicators for black males, as a demographic, drive the discrepancy somewhat.  But do these factors, and others make up the WHOLE discrepancy?  Do they make up even HALF of it?  I honestly don't know, but I have a tough time believing that even HALF the discrepancy is due to systemic bias.

Do we do a disservice in being reluctant to discussing crime rates among various demographics for what they are?  I think so, yes.  I think we can do so without being mean-spirited, and in a way that can result in massive societal change, but not talking about the discrepancy in the rate at which black males commit crimes vs. other demographics seems to reinforce the discrepancy.

There's a multitude of factors that go into this. There's research that suggests that, yes, black males do indeed commit certain classes of crimes at a higher rate than other races. But out of that statement stems a number of questions: 1) are there societal factors driving black males to commit crimes at a disproportionately high rate than other races? By which, I am of course referring to the well documented wealth gap that has developed due to historical events that occurred over 50 years ago. Redlining, discriminatory practices in lending, and racial inequities in the GI Bill (among other things) made it exceedingly difficult for black families to accumulate an equivalent share of the post-war wealth boom than for white families.

With lower average family wealth came lower opportunities; money and assets passed down by white families were not likewise available for black families. And practically, with lower levels of economic security came lower levels of access to opportunities that made it possible to further accumulate wealth. The New York Times documented (Extensive Data Shows Punishing Reach of Racism for Black Boys https://nyti.ms/2tYGuMu) this phenomenon quite well.

And beyond my first point, consider whether behavior that is disproportionately engaged in by black males is criminalized while similar behavior is rehabilitative among white communities. A stunning example of this point is the disproportionate response to drug use and is exemplified by two different episodes: first, the crack vs cocaine sentencing disparity, where merely 5 grams of crack possession resulted in the same sentence as 100 grams of cocaine possession. Crack, of course, was orders of magnitude more likely to be used by black men and women than cocaine. And second - look only at the current response to the drug epidemic affecting white families. The response is overwhelmingly one based on treatment and curing the affliction, as opposed to a criminalization approach that we saw when a similar wave of drug use hit black communities in the late 80s and early 90s.

And as documented, these seemingly small gaps ripple out for generations. As more and more Black men are incarcerated for either behavior that is not criminalized for white men or are disproportionately charged and sentenced for similar behavior to white men, those same men are not able to provide as father figures for their sons and the other sons in their community. They are unable to provide economically and emotionally to their communities and the cycle begins anew.

There's extensive sociological and economic research into this phenomenon. It's an easy and understandable response to instinctively blame cultural differences; it's harder to dig into the underlying structural issues belying the rot inherent in the systemic discrimination.

Stats for sentencing and charging disparities: https://www.sentencingproject.org/publications/un-report-on-racial-disparities/

[Torie]

Someone questions someone's IQ and off to the races we go, with a lot of posts going on about that, and quoting the offending language. Rather than clean it up, I am going to lock the thread, and infract and delete only the first insult. Please don't quote language that you know is agains the rules please. Instead, just report the violation, and on this board at least it will be deleted promptly as if it were never posted. In other words, after reporting the post, just put it on ignore. It will soon be consigned to the black hole of cyberspace. Thank you.