Support Grows in Northern Ireland for Irish Unification (user search)
       |           

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
April 28, 2024, 02:54:35 PM
News: Election Simulator 2.0 Released. Senate/Gubernatorial maps, proportional electoral votes, and more - Read more

  Talk Elections
  General Politics
  International General Discussion (Moderators: afleitch, Hash)
  Support Grows in Northern Ireland for Irish Unification (search mode)
Pages: [1]
Author Topic: Support Grows in Northern Ireland for Irish Unification  (Read 4286 times)
Tetro Kornbluth
Gully Foyle
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,845
Ireland, Republic of


« on: June 13, 2018, 04:54:08 PM »

how can you unify what was never one? (outside of British rule)

Actually, the Kingdom of Ireland was an independent state in personal union with England and Scotland.

The Ascendancy period? I mean, technically, but... er...

The people had about as much power as in any country in Europe, except maybe San Marino or something.

No.

Now if you wanted to troll on this point you may wish to take note of the 1689 Patriot Parliament headed by James II, then deposed in England, which did indeed have authority over the whole island, if not for very long.
Logged
Tetro Kornbluth
Gully Foyle
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,845
Ireland, Republic of


« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2018, 06:45:25 PM »

how can you unify what was never one? (outside of British rule)

Actually, the Kingdom of Ireland was an independent state in personal union with England and Scotland.

The Ascendancy period? I mean, technically, but... er...

The people had about as much power as in any country in Europe, except maybe San Marino or something.

No.

Now if you wanted to troll on this point you may wish to take note of the 1689 Patriot Parliament headed by James II, then deposed in England, which did indeed have authority over the whole island, if not for very long.

Fair enough. Please explain how an English peasant had any more control over their country than did an Irish peasant. In taxes, foreign policy, justice, they basically were powerless. Also, need I mention that the after Elizabeth most of these monarchs were Scottish, not even English? And even the previous so called English were from Normandy, anyway. The average person in either country had little to no identification with their masters, even after the monarchy started using less of its power. Or should we pretend Walpole was ruling with consent of the governed in a public trust?

Yes, there's a very easy and clear distinction and it's that England in this period was not governed by Penal Laws that discriminated against the vast majority of the population based on their religious (effectively ethnic) background.

Under the Penal Laws, enacted slowly in the decades following the Williamite Wars and slowly dismantled from the last few decades of the 18th Century until well into the 19th an Irish Catholic could not in law:
- Own property over a certain amount; Indeed 17th Century Ireland saw the mass land seizure from Catholics into Protestant (here meaning Anglican, for Presbyterians and other dissenters were also discriminated against) families, this was 'the Ascendancy' Al referred to.
- Practice Primogeniture as a form of inheritance - rather all land a Catholic landowner did own must be subdivided amongst his sons. This was not the case for Anglicans, who did practice Primogeniture. The consequences of this should be easy to imagine.
- Vote, run for public office, hold a state position, enter many professions, join an armed force or own a firm arm. All these Anglicans had and dominated.
- Own a horse over a certain amount.
- Teach, run a formal school or be involved in Education.
- Have formal houses of religious worship. Catholic churches were to be made from perishable materials and away from major roads.
- Use what was usually their native language (Irish) in a formal or official setting. It is still the case in Northern Ireland that the Irish language cannot be used in a court of law.

Now I should add all these laws were enforced variably (and sometimes fell into disuse), and of course there was a lot of resistance. But this was not the same as England. It was what we call now - an Apartheid state.
Logged
Pages: [1]  
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Terms of Service - DMCA Agent and Policy - Privacy Policy and Cookies

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

Page created in 0.022 seconds with 12 queries.