Should it be illegal to refuse to provide a service to gay customers...

[Badger]

You can refuse service to anyone, but if you do that you also have to realize that it's fair for the media and public opinion to attack you for it.

Cool with Jim Crow as long as it's self-regulating. Ok.

Are you still pushing this nonsense? Muh wedding cake freedom is jim crow!!!

Arguing "the invisible hand of the marketplace will appropriately correct biased merchants" is, in all fairness, the exact ame silliness pushed by modern-day skeptics of the 64 CRA.

So, kinda, yes. The fact that personal services won't be denied en masse--generally, in most areas--to gays, and "only" will occur in some areas and otherwise in limited sectors of business, makes it only slightly less odious.

[7,052,770]

In much of the rural South, the opposite would be true - bakeries that don't explicitly ban gays would be run out of business by vengeful boycotting Evangelicals.

[Badger]

How's this for a scenario? Business cites adherence to "biblical scripture" condemning the dark skinned Sons of Hamm in Genesis, and other verses stating God created lands and homes for all of the different races to dwell in for their time, and accordingly refuses to bake a cake for an African-American, or mixed race marriage.

And before anyone says there's no comparison, those scriptures were (mis-)used a LOT by southern whites in support not just for slavery, but even Jim Crow barely half a century ago. Nor is the supposed biblical condemnation of homosexuality notably more prevalent in the Bible that the above-referenced verses.

[Brittain33]

You can refuse service to anyone, but if you do that you also have to realize that it's fair for the media and public opinion to attack you for it.

Cool with Jim Crow as long as it's self-regulating. Ok.

Are you still pushing this nonsense? Muh wedding cake freedom is jim crow!!!

I'm not calling the wedding cake discrimination Jim Crow, it's people who say, "yeah, business owners should be able to discriminate against all their customers" which includes race.

[OSR stands with Israel]

It should be legal if

- That Bakery is a Small Business

- That Bakery isnt the only bakery in town



I also believe it should be legal for an Atheist Baker to refuse to bake a cake for a Religious Wedding as well, if they meet the criteria I listed above.

[Brittain33]

It should be legal if

- That Bakery is a Small Business

- That Bakery isnt the only bakery in town

Awesome. Who's going to define what business is small and what isn't? If there's a convenience store that sells Hostess cakes, does that count as "another bakery"? What if the municipal boundaries are small and there's another bakery a mile away in a different town? Why would anyone go to the effort and overhead to decide when discrimination is cool and when it goes too far?

[OSR stands with Israel]

It should be legal if

- That Bakery is a Small Business

- That Bakery isnt the only bakery in town

Awesome. Who's going to define what business is small and what isn't? If there's a convenience store that sells Hostess cakes, does that count as "another bakery"? What if the municipal boundaries are small and there's another bakery a mile away in a different town? Why would anyone go to the effort and overhead to decide when discrimination is cool and when it goes too far?

Ok how about this any Buisness with less than 10 employees (instead of the the full definition of small) and another bakery being say being 10-15 miles away .


Their has to be some balance or you are going to violate the rights of the buisness owner as well . In fact  when it comes to small buisness owners whose buisness is in only a few towns they should be significantly less regulated then big business since the  free market can easily put them out of business

[Virginiá]

I'm just curious, for those who think businesses should be able to discriminate against LGBT people, what are your thoughts on racial discrimination?

[Chunk Yogurt for President!]

How's this for a scenario? Business cites adherence to "biblical scripture" condemning the dark skinned Sons of Hamm in Genesis, and other verses stating God created lands and homes for all of the different races to dwell in for their time, and accordingly refuses to bake a cake for an African-American, or mixed race marriage.

And before anyone says there's no comparison, those scriptures were (mis-)used a LOT by southern whites in support not just for slavery, but even Jim Crow barely half a century ago. Nor is the supposed biblical condemnation of homosexuality notably more prevalent in the Bible that the above-referenced verses.

Because separate but equal is okay for sex but not race.  We're allowed to have men's and women's restrooms but not black and white restrooms.  Thus, refusing to provide services for a wedding between people of the same sex is different than refusing to provide services for a wedding between people of different races (race is a social construct anyway).

However, let me be clear, a Christian restaurant or grocery store still can't refuse to sell food to gays, a Christian hardware store still can't refuse to sell bolts and screws to gays, and a Christian TV laundromat can't turn away gays wanting to wash their clothes there.  But a wedding ceremony is different.

Also, interracial marriage is in the Bible.  Moses' wife was black and IIRC God punishes Moses' mother for opposing their marriage.  Aaron also opposed their marriage but I don't remember if he was punished.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

I feel like we need to find some way to differentiate between "providing equal access to a good or service" or "agree to be commissioned to create a custom good or service". I'm just not sure how to thread that needle.

[TPIG]

No. If a business owner finds a request by a customer to be so objectionable that they're willing to forego increased profits for the sake of keeping their conscience in tact, then no one should be able to force them to do otherwise.

With the case of bakers, we aren't seeing examples of bakers refusing to simply serve gays regular, non-custom items because they're gay. The bakers are specifically refusing to make custom-made wedding cakes for gay couples. Forcing them to make these custom cakes would be, in essence, requiring these bakers to endorse a practice they find to go against God's law.

[Sestak]

If the service is unique and different than such a service that would be provided to straight customers, no.

If the service is identical except for the identity of the customers (as in Masterpiece) then yes.

It's not that hard, people.

[Sestak]

No. If a business owner finds a request by a customer to be so objectionable that they're willing to forego increased profits for the sake of keeping their conscience in tact, then no one should be able to force them to do otherwise.

With the case of bakers, we aren't seeing examples of bakers refusing to simply serve gays regular, non-custom items because they're gay. The bakers are specifically refusing to make custom-made wedding cakes for gay couples. Forcing them to make these custom cakes would be, in essence, requiring these bakers to endorse a practice they find to go against God's law.

This is false. The baker in Masterpiece refused to make ANY wedding cake for the couple.

[TPIG]

No. If a business owner finds a request by a customer to be so objectionable that they're willing to forego increased profits for the sake of keeping their conscience in tact, then no one should be able to force them to do otherwise.

With the case of bakers, we aren't seeing examples of bakers refusing to simply serve gays regular, non-custom items because they're gay. The bakers are specifically refusing to make custom-made wedding cakes for gay couples. Forcing them to make these custom cakes would be, in essence, requiring these bakers to endorse a practice they find to go against God's law.

This is false. The baker in Masterpiece refused to make ANY wedding cake for the couple.

A wedding cake, by it's very nature, is a custom cake. The owner did inform the couple that they were able to buy other goods in the store.

[Devout Centrist]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I believe the reverse option here is a straight person seeking gay conversion therapy? Assuming a psychiatrist offers this service, why would they refuse to serve a gay man?

[Brittain33]

No. If a business owner finds a request by a customer to be so objectionable that they're willing to forego increased profits for the sake of keeping their conscience in tact, then no one should be able to force them to do otherwise.

With the case of bakers, we aren't seeing examples of bakers refusing to simply serve gays regular, non-custom items because they're gay. The bakers are specifically refusing to make custom-made wedding cakes for gay couples. Forcing them to make these custom cakes would be, in essence, requiring these bakers to endorse a practice they find to go against God's law.

Wedding cakes are custom-made because they're larger than regular cakes and have to be made just in time before the wedding. If you are a wedding baker, you are in the business of custom baking. Entenmann's doesn't make wedding cakes. Unless the cake is literally in the shape of two men there's nothing "gay"/Biblically errant about the cake. This is like arguing that auto repair is a custom business because every car is a little bit different.  

If the baker disapproved of an interfaith marriage he would be discriminating on the basis of religion to refuse to make a cake for it and that would be illegal under federal law.

I don't care too much about this court case—the conservatives have lost so much ground on the right to punch and beat gays in the last 8 years, they lined up to vote for Trump in order to get a small bit of turf back. If it means codifying the right to discriminate against gays in business, yes they're going to look like the justices who decided Plessy in 20-30 years when the case gets repealed but for now it makes them feel better, we'll rise above.

[Bojack Horseman]

I’ve never understood why religion is the most coddled protected class to the point where we’re on the brink of outright legalizing discrimination done in the name of religion. It is the only protected class that is a choice and can be changed.

[Brittain33]

A wedding cake, by it's very nature, is a custom cake. The owner did inform the couple that they were able to buy other goods in the store.

Yeah, because serving stale cupcakes and cookies at their wedding is a totally appropriate substitute for a wedding cake.

[courts]

No. If a business owner finds a request by a customer to be so objectionable that they're willing to forego increased profits for the sake of keeping their conscience in tact, then no one should be able to force them to do otherwise.

With the case of bakers, we aren't seeing examples of bakers refusing to simply serve gays regular, non-custom items because they're gay. The bakers are specifically refusing to make custom-made wedding cakes for gay couples. Forcing them to make these custom cakes would be, in essence, requiring these bakers to endorse a practice they find to go against God's law.

it's probably happened more than a few times.although there are a lot of hoax stories out there where someone claims they got a nasty message on a receipt or something.some people just want attention.kind of sick..but unsurprising

[OSR stands with Israel]

A wedding cake, by it's very nature, is a custom cake. The owner did inform the couple that they were able to buy other goods in the store.

Yeah, because serving stale cupcakes and cookies at their wedding is a totally appropriate substitute for a wedding cake.

They can just go to another bakery then .


That’s what my family would do if a bakery refused to bake a cake for our Hindu wedding  

[America Needs a 13-6 Progressive SCOTUS]

I’ve never understood why religion is the most coddled protected class to the point where we’re on the brink of outright legalizing discrimination done in the name of religion. It is the only protected class that is a choice and can be changed.

[courts]

A wedding cake, by it's very nature, is a custom cake. The owner did inform the couple that they were able to buy other goods in the store.

Yeah, because serving stale cupcakes and cookies at their wedding is a totally appropriate substitute for a wedding cake.

They can just go to another bakery then .


That’s what my family would do if a bakery refused to bake a cake for our Hindu wedding  

oh that's interesting.i thought your parents were christian converts for some reason.

harry has a point though.in a lot of areas you might very well not have a choice..outside of maybe nationwide supermarket chains like idk,wal mart or something.maybe

[OSR stands with Israel]

A wedding cake, by it's very nature, is a custom cake. The owner did inform the couple that they were able to buy other goods in the store.

Yeah, because serving stale cupcakes and cookies at their wedding is a totally appropriate substitute for a wedding cake.

They can just go to another bakery then .


That’s what my family would do if a bakery refused to bake a cake for our Hindu wedding  

oh that's interesting.i thought your parents were christian converts for some reason.

harry has a point though.in a lot of areas you might very well not have a choice..outside of maybe nationwide supermarket chains like idk,wal mart or something.maybe

Really why would you assume a thing like that


Also I only believe the bakery should be able to do that if there is competition near by

[OSR stands with Israel]

I’ve never understood why religion is the most coddled protected class to the point where we’re on the brink of outright legalizing discrimination done in the name of religion. It is the only protected class that is a choice and can be changed.

Atheists can refuse to make wedding cakes for religious wedding as well


It’s more protecting the right of small businesses

[Sestak]

TCG, I'm sorry, but if a cake can be identical to a previous one with the only difference being the identity of the customers, then it's not a custom cake "by nature" (or at all).