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September 29, 2020, 08:35:33 am
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Discussion thread link: https://talkelections.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=400306.0

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  Religion & Philosophy (Moderators: Gustaf, TJ in Oregon)
  What's your favorite Christian heresy?
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Author Topic: What's your favorite Christian heresy?  (Read 1917 times)
Associate Justice PiT
PiT (The Physicist)
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« Reply #25 on: September 11, 2020, 01:00:34 am »

     I like the Old Believers and use several of their cosmetic practices (e.g. using two fingers to make the sign of the cross), though the anathema on them was lifted many years ago. Some of the sub-sects of the Old Believers had very unusual doctrines that I find fascinating.

     It is hard to pick just one group to call out, but I would like to mention the Holy Thursday Gapers, who would keep their mouths open during liturgy on Great and Holy Thursday in anticipation of receiving the Eucharist from angelic ministers. Their reasoning for this was that they did not believe any valid human priests still existed on Earth, so Holy Communion could only be given to them by angelic hands.

Were the Nikonian Reforms really successfully enforced on every Russian Orthodox priest, or did the rationale for this have to do with something else, like a lack of "faithful" bishops to perform new ordinations?

     Indeed it was a matter of bishops. They had priests initially, but no bishops of the Russian Church were with the Old Believers to ordain new ones and so their priesthood rapidly died out. Their most prominent members were able to convince a deposed bishop from another country to come and ordain new ones, but these ordinations were not universally recognized among Old Believers. This led to a division between the "popovtzy" who had priests and the "bezpopovtzy" who did not have priests. Most of the truly bizarre sects of the Old Believers were bezpopovtzy.

On the merits, I'm actually sympathetic to the contemporary arguments against the Nikonian Reforms. Everything I've read about them indicates that they were imposed in an incredibly heavy-handed way, and the rationale for them reeks of cultural cringe. I probably would have grudgingly accepted them once they were in place, though.

     The Nikonian reforms were grossly unnecessary and came from a place of misunderstanding, as did the Old Believer opposition. Russians understood correctly a truth that is mostly lost today, i.e. that liturgy is laden with theological implication. They took this idea to an unreasonable extreme though, and became convinced that even trivial changes to the liturgy represented heresy and false worship.

     Ultimately, I think I would have done the same as you. The reforms shouldn't have happened, but they in no way justify schism.
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MyRescueKittehRocks
JohanusCalvinusLibertas
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« Reply #26 on: September 15, 2020, 08:48:46 pm »

Protestantism is orthodox and not a heresy. Sedevacantism does have legitimate grievances with Rome.

Here’s a heresy for ya. Modalism
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The scissors of false economy
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« Reply #27 on: September 16, 2020, 08:52:50 am »

Sedevacantism does have legitimate grievances with Rome.

I don't mean this question as an attack or even a criticism really, but why exactly would a staunch Reformed Protestant like yourself understand internal Catholic Church issues well enough to hold this position, especially since a huge sede issue is perceived "Protestantization" of things like the liturgy and Biblical theology? There's way more to the rationale behind sedevacantism and the Traditionalist Catholic movement/subculture in general than just "Left-Leaning Pope Bad", even if "Left-Leaning Pope Bad" currently eats up a lot of many trads' intellectual and emotional energy.
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HenryWallaceVP
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« Reply #28 on: September 16, 2020, 12:15:13 pm »
« Edited: September 18, 2020, 10:42:21 pm by HenryWallaceVP »

The Teckelites, even though they were more a disparagingly named political movement than religious heresy. I'm a big fan of the Christian (or as their critics would allege, Islamic) republican tradition in 17th century radical English Protestantism.
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Mopolis
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« Reply #29 on: September 20, 2020, 04:26:30 am »
« Edited: September 20, 2020, 04:33:20 am by Mopolis »

The whole thrust of early Gnosticism was that only a select few highly educated people (and thus certainly of the establishment, just not the church establishment, not that it makes much sense to speak of a church establishment when speaking of the early church) were going to be able to escape this corrupt material world created by the demiurge.

On that point, were they not in agreement with the karmic and Taoist paths of south and east Asia?
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #30 on: September 20, 2020, 03:40:32 pm »

The whole thrust of early Gnosticism was that only a select few highly educated people (and thus certainly of the establishment, just not the church establishment, not that it makes much sense to speak of a church establishment when speaking of the early church) were going to be able to escape this corrupt material world created by the demiurge.

On that point, were they not in agreement with the karmic and Taoist paths of south and east Asia?

Yes and no.

While some of the karmic religions, especially Buddhism and Jainism, are of the opinion that this world is essentially corrupt and that it is both desirable and possible to detach from it, the core Daoist teachings are focused not upon escaping a cycle of rebirth and redeath but upon how to best act within this life, regardless of whether you think it is a one shot, or part of a cycle. I'll grant that Buddhism has had a significant impact upon East Asian thought, but it isn't integral to an understanding of the Dao. I am decidedly not a Buddhist, nor would I want to be, but I find the philosophy of the Dao quite compatible, in both its Taoist and Confucianist modes, with a wide variety of cosmological beliefs, not just  resurrection.
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Mopolis
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« Reply #31 on: September 20, 2020, 04:17:01 pm »

While some of the karmic religions, especially Buddhism and Jainism, are of the opinion that this world is essentially corrupt and that it is both desirable and possible to detach from it, the core Daoist teachings are focused not upon escaping a cycle of rebirth and redeath but upon how to best act within this life, regardless of whether you think it is a one shot, or part of a cycle. I'll grant that Buddhism has had a significant impact upon East Asian thought, but it isn't integral to an understanding of the Dao. I am decidedly not a Buddhist, nor would I want to be, but I find the philosophy of the Dao quite compatible, in both its Taoist and Confucianist modes, with a wide variety of cosmological beliefs, not just  resurrection.

My issue is with the connotations of words like “corrupt” - while we might see them as nihilistic, Buddhists themselves would maintain that nothing is more conductive to mental and physical wellbeing than the life of moderation which their metaphysics promotes. It’s hard to say if the same was true with Christian Gnostics.
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