WI: Goldwater won in 1964
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  WI: Goldwater won in 1964
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Author Topic: WI: Goldwater won in 1964  (Read 5203 times)
True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #25 on: July 30, 2020, 01:35:50 PM »


To a large extent, the "religious right" was a successful rebranding of what social conservatism meant away from being about the defense of white power. Social conservatism had traditionally been part of the Democratic coalition. By being willing to accept social conservatives into the fold before they had managed to shed their segregationist image, Goldwater a part of helping to bring the social conservatives into the GOP. But that wasn't just because of Goldwater, Nixon, and Reagan pulling them into the GOP, but LBJ, McGovern, and Mondale helping to push them out. If Carter had managed to have a successful presidency, I think that rather than being solidly part of the GOP, the religious right would have ended up being a swing constituency. But for many reasons that wasn't to be.

One could argue that the Religious Right have always been linked with white supremacy, and instead were an attempt to present it more subtilely in a post-Jim Crow world. Jerry Falwell’s first political campaign was an unsuccessful attempt to stop desegregation of private Christian academies in the South.

To say that social conservatism had traditionally been a part of the Democratic coalition before the Religious Right is misleading. At any rate outside of the South the Democrats had overall been somewhat more socially liberal than the Republicans for a while before, to the extent that social conservatism even mattered much.

There is a reason if Comstock laws took their name from a Republican and the Volstead Act took its name from a Republican.

And those were both considered progressive pieces of legislation at the time.

Prohibition, yes. I don't think that Comstock laws were ever considered progressive.
Anyway, this should be an example of how "progressive" and "liberal" are not always the same thing.

Agreed. Indeed much of what in the U.S. is considered liberal today once would not have been, and still is not in much of the world.
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Kingpoleon
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« Reply #26 on: August 15, 2020, 12:16:15 AM »

To a large extent, the "religious right" was a successful rebranding of what social conservatism meant away from being about the defense of white power. Social conservatism had traditionally been part of the Democratic coalition. By being willing to accept social conservatives into the fold before they had managed to shed their segregationist image, Goldwater a part of helping to bring the social conservatives into the GOP. But that wasn't just because of Goldwater, Nixon, and Reagan pulling them into the GOP, but LBJ, McGovern, and Mondale helping to push them out. If Carter had managed to have a successful presidency, I think that rather than being solidly part of the GOP, the religious right would have ended up being a swing constituency. But for many reasons that wasn't to be.
Barry Goldwater did not consolidate social conservatives. He was the candidate who brought together libertarians and hawks, while his stance on anti-discrimination laws forged an awkward, small coalition with segregationists. I would argue that he, being the first (and arguably only) GOP Presidential candidate firmly against any form of welfare state, really brought about Republican economics.
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mianfei
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« Reply #27 on: December 28, 2020, 08:09:10 AM »

Actually, given opinion polls that suggested overwhelming public opposition to the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and to liberal government and Supreme Court decisions over the previous years (e.g. 85 percent of those polled opposed Engel v. Vitale outlawing prayer in public schools), I do not think it would have been nearly so impossible for Goldwater to win as is popularly thought.

What Goldwater would have had to do is to avoid making lower- and middle-class whites, especially rural whites, not fear-struck by the threat of Communist retaliation and a global nuclear war. Goldwater’s actual idea of using tactical nuclear strikes undoubtedly scared immense numbers of people who were firmly against even basic civil rights for African-Americans into supporting a pro-Civil-Rights president even if they had always voted Republican in other elections.

Focusing simply on an invasion of North Vietnam would have been more logical but still highly risky due to the possibility of retaliation from either or both of Russia and Mao’s China (despite the two having become mortal enemies) that would have had the same effect as an actual nuclear strike. Then, a more rigid draft would have been unpopular even amongst racially conservative rural whites (who for one thing did not volunteer en masse for the Vietnam War).

Other alternatives – more emphasis on keeping established immigration policies, for instance – might have helped, but how much I do not know. One of Goldwater’s problems was the potential conflict between his libertarian economic policies and his hard-line Vietnam policies, which made him so unpopular outside the racially extreme Deep South and Mountain states.

If Goldwater had won, he would likely have had some coattails in the House and Senate to carry out his platform of reversing the New Deal and subsequent economically liberal Democratic policies. Large-scale deregulation and privatisation of federal assets, and cessation of support for black civil rights, are certainly possible. However, I feel that unless Goldwater could do most of the following:

  • solidify Republican support amongst rural whites to a degree not reached until Bush junior or Romney more than a generation later
  • manage to successfully win the Vietnam War permanently
  • via cessation of support for black civil rights avert the racial conflicts observed in 1966 and 1967

he might have lost support before being up for re-election.

Even if opposition to black civil rights did reduce racial conflict, and Goldwater was able to give police and other law enforcement much more leeway in black communities the existing liberal Supreme Court would have sided with black plaintiffs against police brutality as it never did even during the Reagan years – let alone since the Republican Revolution of 1994. It is virtually certain a President Goldwater would have received zero high court appointments between 1965 and 1969. I strongly suspect Barry Goldwater knew – because of the improbability of a Supreme Court opening between 1965 and 1969 under so conservative an administration – that he could not use an excessively liberal Court as a campaign issue. This undoubtedly helped Johnson by removing a persuasive issue from the 1964 Republican campaign arsenal.

A Supreme Court siding with plaintiffs against law enforcementcould have nullified a strong policy on law and order and made Goldwater less popular unless crime rates fell rather than rose rapidly as actually observed. What would have happened after that is difficult to tell, and depends on the factors noted above plus many others
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ReaganLimbaugh
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« Reply #28 on: August 22, 2021, 03:36:05 PM »

He would have abolished Medicare & Medicaid
No war on poverty
He would have switched to a Flat Tax
No Immigration Act 1965
He would have balanced the Budget


Barry Goldwater would have been one of the greatest Presidents in US History.


Sam is right.
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CEO Mindset
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« Reply #29 on: August 22, 2021, 05:37:32 PM »

movement conservatism crashes and burns due to his one-term trainwreck. You see mass party flips of moderates like nixon, etc to the democrats, which isn't compensated for open racists going gop early.

nixon elected in 1976 as a two-term democrat(the media covering for him for partisan reasons ofc), following hhh's own two terms

gop either a regional party or very hard to recognize from an otl pov
us has significantly higher taxes and at minimum national healthcare and a basic income. broadbased "populist" stuff for everyone as opposed to johnson's clientalist approach
"socialism" stops being a dirty word in us politics in the 70s and 80s after the disaster of goldwater's single term
draft ended in 1969 in reaction to goldwater

only positive contribution of goldwater is that south vietnam/cambodia shored up enough to be free from communists but hhh gets the credit for it
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Agonized-Statism
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« Reply #30 on: September 02, 2021, 10:48:04 AM »

A Republican victory in 1964 would require the 1968 fragmentation of the New Deal Coalition to happen early and the Kennedy martyrdom to be avoided at least. Looking at the example of Kennedy's contemporary in the Soviet Union, one way for him to lose power on top of worsening health would be for him to get framed as mishandling the Cuban Missile Crisis (too many concessions is a possible attack). A segregationist third-party run by Ross Barnett or George Wallace and a run from the Democrats' left permits Goldwater a narrow victory.

Can't imagine a President Goldwater doing well between civil rights, the counterculture, Vietnam, and the Space Race, but the irreconcilable differences in the New Deal Coalition make any defeat in 1968 really close. Democrats may run a hawk like Henry Jackson given the criticism that lost them 1964, but one who can sway enough of the anti-war movement to win. Think Nixon talking out of both sides of his mouth.
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LAKISYLVANIA
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« Reply #31 on: September 02, 2021, 11:35:49 AM »

May '68 events would have spilled over to the US.
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Agonized-Statism
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« Reply #32 on: September 02, 2021, 03:10:38 PM »

May '68 events would have spilled over to the US.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_of_1968#United_States
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Telesquare
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« Reply #33 on: September 02, 2021, 05:09:13 PM »

I don't think there is any way that the civil rights act could have been repealed. Goldwater himself only opposed two sections anyways.
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