Vice, Virtue, and Independence (A Different Path, Chapter 2)
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  Vice, Virtue, and Independence (A Different Path, Chapter 2)
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Author Topic: Vice, Virtue, and Independence (A Different Path, Chapter 2)  (Read 38643 times)
Cold War Liberal
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« Reply #150 on: May 30, 2018, 10:45:28 PM »

There are certainly similarities (some on purpose, though I'm not using fictional presidencies as analogues for real ones like, say, Camelot Anew); a Republican characterized as an extremeist wins a contentious election in a narrow upset and starts an unconventional administration which follows a popular two-term "first ___" president (first Irish Catholic/youngest President for JFK, first black president for Obama).

However, everything I've ever read about Goldwater (e.g. Rick Perlstein's Before the Storm) is overwhelming positive when it comes to his integrity and honesty, which obviously is not Trump's strong suit. Goldwater also cared about minorities (he was high up in the Arizona NAACP IIRC, and was pro gay rights in his later years) while Trump arguably doesn't. Also, Goldwater is the most ideologically consistent politician I've ever read about on either side, which Trump cannot possibly be construed as anything of the sort.

Speaking of Trump, he'll have a POV very soon...
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Mr. Smith
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« Reply #151 on: June 01, 2018, 12:42:38 PM »

Any plans for Frank Church? Also, is Chapter 2 gonna go on longer, or is Chapter 3 in the works now?
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Cold War Liberal
KennedyWannabe99
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« Reply #152 on: June 01, 2018, 12:46:15 PM »

Any plans for Frank Church? Also, is Chapter 2 gonna go on longer, or is Chapter 3 in the works now?
Chapter 2 will encompass the entire Goldwater administration. The next update (first 100 days) will be up in a bit. The format will be a little different from Chapter 1.
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Cold War Liberal
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« Reply #153 on: June 01, 2018, 02:09:10 PM »
« Edited: June 04, 2018, 12:09:00 AM by Cold War Liberal »

January 20 - April 30, 1969
First 100 Days

On his first day in office, President Goldwater had only part of a Cabinet. State, Defense, multiple offices in Justice, HEW, Housing, the UN ambassadorship; all of them were occupied by acting secretaries. Goldwater, of course, made getting his nominees through Congress his top priority in those early weeks. Luce and Romney were confirmed very quickly (late nominations had been the cause of their lack of a confirmation, not the nominees themselves), while Kissinger and Walter Judd were confirmed within a week. 10 days after the inauguration, and after a lengthy hearing where progressives like Senator Ted Kennedy (D-MA) grilled him on his qualifications, Rep. William Miller (R-NY) was confirmed as the nation’s new Attorney General.

The three most controversial nominees were Curtis LeMay for Defense, Robert Bork for Deputy Attorney General, and Phyllis Schlafly for Solicitor General. Out of the three, Robert Bork was the easiest to confirm; 11 days after the inauguration, after multiple hearings, Bork was confirmed 62-38. Phyllis Schlafly was under pressure to withdraw herself from contention, but perservered, and after demonstrating herself to be both personable and knowledgeable about the law, she was confirmed by the same Senators as Bork. Having signed Curtis LeMay’s waiver on the 20th of January, President Goldwater had hoped that Congress would hurry up their confirmation process. However, they aggressively pushed him on issues of nuclear weapons and war tactics, leaving him unconfirmed come early February.

Then, things changed.

On the Vietnamese holiday of Tet (January 31), with the South Vietnamese military off-guard and celebrating with friends and family, the North Vietnamese launched a surprise attack on South Vietnam. Deliberately violating the informal “stalemate line” established 45 miles north of Hue a little less than a year prior, the Viet Cong stormed their southern neighbor and attacked over 50 towns and cities, including Saigon, where they stormed the American embassy and took 109 American citizens hostage, promising to keep them until the US removed their military advisers from the country. President Goldwater was outraged. He immediately demanded two things from Congress: that they officially declare war on North Vietnam, and that they confirm LeMay as a matter of national security. All Senators but George McGovern voted for the Saigon Resolution, while LeMay was confirmed by the thinnest possible margin, 60-40.

On February 6, 1969, President Goldwater held his first nationally televised address to the nation. With his choice for Defense Secretary confirmed, Goldwater had asked for a war plan in Vietnam, which he outlined in his speech to the American people. There would be a random draft, Goldwater announced, which would go into effect immediately; a large number of troops were needed as soon as possible, and there weren’t enough volunteers. Goldwater also announced a state of national emergency, ostensibly to be lifted when the hostage situation was resolved. It resolved itself rather quickly, because the next day, the Viet Cong slaughtered all of the hostages - on television, for all the world to see. The state of emergency was not called off; America was in an uproar. They wanted a war.

And a war they would get.

Goldwater had had things he wanted to do on the domestic policy side of things, but with American boots on the ground, he didn't have much time to try to get anything passed. The only attempt he made was a tax reform bill, which he proposed in early February; it was still being worked out in committee come May.


January 20 - April 30, 1969
Other Headlines

Yasser Arafat Elected Leader of PLO
Levi Eshkol Dies of Heart Attack
McGovern Commission Kicks Into Gear, with Help from Kennedys
James Earl Ray Pleads Guilty to MLK Assassination Attempt
Fmr. Pres. Eisenhower Dies
Pres. de Gaulle Steps Down; Pompidou Sworn In
Tereshkova: Rising Soviet Political Star?

February 16, 1969
Gallup Poll

President Goldwater Approval Rating
Approve: 73%
Disapprove: 20%
Not sure: 7%
Didn’t answer: 0%

Do you support American involvement in the Vietnam War?
Yes: 87%
No: 6%
Not sure: 7%
Didn’t answer: 0%
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America Needs R'hllor
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« Reply #154 on: June 02, 2018, 03:13:47 AM »

Daamn. In this TL I'd probably be a war supporter, but this is going to get dirty. Also RIP Eshkol and Eisenhower, major FFs.
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NewYorkExpress
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« Reply #155 on: June 02, 2018, 08:15:55 PM »

Well, unless Goldwater screws up royally, he'll win re-election.

This probably also eliminates McGovern as a possible nominee in 1972...and maybe both Kennedy's as  well, depending on how progressive Teddy's voting record is on the upcoming war, and what RFK does from this point forward.

I'd also expect Republicans to make modest gains in the 1970 midterm elections...unless the war starts going south quickly.
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UWS
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« Reply #156 on: June 03, 2018, 07:30:28 AM »

Interesting.
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MillennialModerate
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« Reply #157 on: June 03, 2018, 09:54:15 AM »

I think I’d also support the war in this TL.

Reluctantly though as I wouldn’t trust Goldwater
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Cold War Liberal
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« Reply #158 on: June 03, 2018, 03:13:15 PM »

March 14, 1969
Donald



Well, s---. What now?

22-year-old Donald Trump held the navy draft card in his hand as he looked it over in front of his father. Donald had graduated, so he couldn’t get a deferment due to school, and basically anyone else was required to serve if drafted due to the state of emergency.

“Father, I, like, really really don’t want to serve, believe me. I mean everyone always tells me I’d be the best soldier, but-”

“Donald, you’re going to serve. Our country needs people like you,” Fred Trump said, distantly.

Donald started to whine. “But father-”

“I didn’t send you to the military academy to have you be a damned draft dodger, you whiny dips---! You’re either going to ‘Nam or you’re going out of my damn house and onto the street with the proletariat!”

Donald had always felt his father didn’t love him, but he didn’t think Daddy would force him to live with poors!

“You mean you’ll make me live with people who don’t even have a million - no, not even a hundred thousand - dollars to their name? Like, even with the Irish or the blacks or the Mexicans?!”

“Yes, Donald, you’ll go fight Goldwater’s war for six months until it’s over and he can get around to giving us tax cuts.”

Thoroughly humiliated, Donald resigned himself to what he had to do.

Two weeks later, Donald was in the Gulf of Tonkin on the ship he had been assigned to, the USS Forrestal.
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Neo-Malthusian Misanthrope
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« Reply #159 on: June 03, 2018, 09:36:27 PM »

March 14, 1969
Donald



Well, s---. What now?

22-year-old Donald Trump held the navy draft card in his hand as he looked it over in front of his father. Donald had graduated, so he couldn’t get a deferment due to school, and basically anyone else was required to serve if drafted due to the state of emergency.

“Father, I, like, really really don’t want to serve, believe me. I mean everyone always tells me I’d be the best soldier, but-”

“Donald, you’re going to serve. Our country needs people like you,” Fred Trump said, distantly.

Donald started to whine. “But father-”

“I didn’t send you to the military academy to have you be a damned draft dodger, you whiny dips---! You’re either going to ‘Nam or you’re going out of my damn house and onto the street with the proletariat!”

Donald had always felt his father didn’t love him, but he didn’t think Daddy would force him to live with poors!

“You mean you’ll make me live with people who don’t even have a million - no, not even a hundred thousand - dollars to their name? Like, even with the Irish or the blacks or the Mexicans?!”

“Yes, Donald, you’ll go fight Goldwater’s war for six months until it’s over and he can get around to giving us tax cuts.”

Thoroughly humiliated, Donald resigned himself to what he had to do.

Two weeks later, Donald was in the Gulf of Tonkin on the ship he had been assigned to, the USS Forrestal.

Butterflying away Lee Harvey Oswald and everything that's come from that so far I can get behind, but butterflying away Donnie's totally legit bone spurs? Now that's just inconceivable.
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NewYorkExpress
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« Reply #160 on: June 03, 2018, 11:39:22 PM »

March 14, 1969
Donald



Well, s---. What now?

22-year-old Donald Trump held the navy draft card in his hand as he looked it over in front of his father. Donald had graduated, so he couldn’t get a deferment due to school, and basically anyone else was required to serve if drafted due to the state of emergency.

“Father, I, like, really really don’t want to serve, believe me. I mean everyone always tells me I’d be the best soldier, but-”

“Donald, you’re going to serve. Our country needs people like you,” Fred Trump said, distantly.

Donald started to whine. “But father-”

“I didn’t send you to the military academy to have you be a damned draft dodger, you whiny dips---! You’re either going to ‘Nam or you’re going out of my damn house and onto the street with the proletariat!”

Donald had always felt his father didn’t love him, but he didn’t think Daddy would force him to live with poors!

“You mean you’ll make me live with people who don’t even have a million - no, not even a hundred thousand - dollars to their name? Like, even with the Irish or the blacks or the Mexicans?!”

“Yes, Donald, you’ll go fight Goldwater’s war for six months until it’s over and he can get around to giving us tax cuts.”

Thoroughly humiliated, Donald resigned himself to what he had to do.

Two weeks later, Donald was in the Gulf of Tonkin on the ship he had been assigned to, the USS Forrestal.

Butterflying away Lee Harvey Oswald and everything that's come from that so far I can get behind, but butterflying away Donnie's totally legit bone spurs? Now that's just inconceivable.

My guess is the bone spurs weren't butterflied away, Trump just didn't get a deferment for whatever reason (which will make him look better if he ever does run President, ironically).
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America Needs R'hllor
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« Reply #161 on: June 03, 2018, 11:47:19 PM »

Oh boy... Serving is gonna change Donald, that's for sure.
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Cold War Liberal
KennedyWannabe99
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« Reply #162 on: June 04, 2018, 12:08:16 AM »

Bone spurs would put Trump under classification 1-Y, which, in 1969, only exempted one from serving if there was not a state of national emergency. In 1971 it was changed to where one wouldn't have to serve at all.

Since
Goldwater also announced a state of national emergency
Trump must serve, regardless of the spurs.
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MillennialModerate
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« Reply #163 on: June 04, 2018, 07:02:57 AM »

March 14, 1969
Donald


“Father, I, like, really really don’t want to serve, believe me. I mean everyone always tells me I’d be the best soldier, but-”

Hahahahahaha. Absolutely effing brilliant
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Cold War Liberal
KennedyWannabe99
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« Reply #164 on: June 06, 2018, 02:16:34 PM »
« Edited: October 30, 2018, 02:30:26 PM by Limousine Communist »

May 1 - August 31, 1969
Summer of ‘69


“Six months. We expect to be out in six months.”

Those were the words of Press Secretary Clarence Manion when war was first declared on Vietnam in February. Even by May, it was clear that would not be the case.

The American offensive in Vietnam started out quite successfully. The North Vietnamese were pushed out of Saigon, and, with time, back up to the DMZ, thus regaining all the land lost during the Tet Offensive. However, past that line, the Viet Cong dug in and turned to guerilla warfare, which was wildly successful on their home turf against their conventionally-trained adversaries. As time went on, Goldwater sent more and more American troops into foreign jungles, and more and more came home - in body bags. College campuses began to see unrest as the younger generation started to turn against Goldwater and the war (to the extent that they had ever been in favor of either in the first place). However, the general public still broadly supported both the President and the war against Communism. The price of dead soldiers’ lives was worth it to stop domino theory from becoming reality - for now.

At the end of the Supreme Court term of 1968-1969, Associate Justice Harlan announced his retirement, giving Goldwater his first opening to fill on the Court. Goldwater chose a US District Court Chief Judge from Florida, G. Harrold Carswell, to take Harlan’s place. Many Northern, progressive Democrats opposed him due to his questionable record with regard to civil rights for women and minorities, but Goldwater was able to build a coalition of Southern Democrats, conservative Republicans, and Democrats worried about Goldwater’s high approvals and their reelection bids in 1970 to get Carswell confirmed with 63 votes in the Senate.


Marshall Court (1969)

Chief Justice
Thurgood Marshall (b. 1908, liberal, appointed by Kennedy in 1965)

Associate Justices
Hugo Black (b. 1886, liberal, appointed by F. D. Roosevelt in 1937)
Byron White (b. 1917, moderate, appointed by Kennedy in 1962)
Arthur Goldberg (b. 1908, liberal, appointed by Kennedy in 1962)
William O. Douglas (b. 1898, moderate, appointed by F. D. Roosevelt in 1939)
G. Harrold Carswell (b. 1919, conservative, appointed by Goldwater in 1969)
Potter Stewart (b. 1915, moderate, appointed by Eisenhower in 1958)
Tom C. Clark (b. 1899, moderate, appointed by Truman in 1949)
William J. Brennan, Jr. (b. 1906, liberal, appointed by Eisenhower in 1956)


The summer of 1969 was also one of the “long, hot summers” of the civil rights era. There were demonstrations across the country, led by Martin Luther King, Jesse Jackson, (whom King had made something of his protege), John Lewis, C.T. Vivian, and several others. King, Jackson, and Vivian’s major focus was anti-poverty programs, especially fighting against housing and employment discrimination, and protecting Medicaid, while Lewis focused more on attempting to guarantee African-American voting rights ahead of the 1970 midterms. Almost all of these demonstrations were peaceful, except for several in Southern cities, where aggressive police officers didn’t mind creating a scene. The Goldwater Administration mostly ignored their requests for bills allowing the Housing Department to crack down on discrimination, and the cries that there needed to be another attempt to pass the Voting Rights Act. De jure segregation might’ve been outlawed by the 1965 Civil Rights Act, but de facto segregation was still rampant (and not just in the south), but the new President was adamantly against using the federal government to remedy it, even if he supported voting and housing rights for black people. Additionally, the riots at New York City’s Stonewall Inn started a national conversation about the rights of gay people, which Goldwater remained quiet on.

The first major achievement of the Goldwater Administration with regard to domestic policy was the Tax Reduction Act of 1969. A signature campaign promise of Goldwater’s, the TRA cut personal income taxes by 10% across the board, and cut the corporate income tax by 7% across the board. After months of negotiations, the bill passed narrowly in both the House and Senate, and was signed by Goldwater in late July. However, to accommodate this, the Goldwater Administration’s proposed 1970 budget cut deeply into funding for anti-poverty programs and public broadcasting. Activists were in uproar. Everyone from Martin Luther King, Jr. to Mr. Rogers testified before Congress in favor of funding for Medicaid (King) and National Educational Television (Rogers). Ultimately, the programs were cut substantially, but were not as ravaged as they were originally proposed to be.

It may not have felt like it then, but those were the best days of Goldwater’s administration.


May 1 - August 31, 1969
Other Headlines

Soviet Craft Lands on Venus
Midnight Cowboy Stirs Controversy
Pompidou Defeats Duclos in Shockingly Close Second Round
UK, Rhodesia Sever Ties
Ted Kennedy Has Accident in Chappaquiddick; None Injured
Who Are the “Manson Murderers?”

September 1, 1969
Gallup Poll

President Goldwater Approval Rating
Approve: 67%
Disapprove: 27%
Not sure: 6%
Didn’t answer: 0%

Do you support American involvement in the Vietnam War?
Yes: 83%
No: 11%
Not sure: 6%
Didn’t answer: 0%
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Cold War Liberal
KennedyWannabe99
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« Reply #165 on: June 06, 2018, 02:17:58 PM »

(Now I've got that damn Bryan Adams song stuck in my head)
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NewYorkExpress
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« Reply #166 on: June 06, 2018, 02:33:02 PM »

You sly fox, you said you weren't using Chappaquiddick!!!

I guess Ted Kennedy won't be the nominee in 1972, but RFK is still possible...

Will Martin Luther King run a pro-civil rights campaign?
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MillennialModerate
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« Reply #167 on: June 06, 2018, 03:48:23 PM »

You sly fox, you said you weren't using Chappaquiddick!!!

I guess Ted Kennedy won't be the nominee in 1972, but RFK is still possible...

Will Martin Luther King run a pro-civil rights campaign?

Read closer ....



Ted Kennedy Has Accident in Chappaquiddick; None Injured

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NewYorkExpress
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« Reply #168 on: June 06, 2018, 03:56:02 PM »
« Edited: June 06, 2018, 11:27:13 PM by NewYorkExpress »

You sly fox, you said you weren't using Chappaquiddick!!!

I guess Ted Kennedy won't be the nominee in 1972, but RFK is still possible...

Will Martin Luther King run a pro-civil rights campaign?

Read closer ....



Ted Kennedy Has Accident in Chappaquiddick; None Injured


That doesn't mean Mary Jo wasn't in the car with him, just that she wasn't injured/killed.
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Joe Biden 2024
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« Reply #169 on: June 06, 2018, 04:25:46 PM »

Was MLK assassinated in this timeline?
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NewYorkExpress
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« Reply #170 on: June 06, 2018, 05:04:07 PM »


No, he wasn't.
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MillennialModerate
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« Reply #171 on: June 06, 2018, 07:46:44 PM »

You sly fox, you said you weren't using Chappaquiddick!!!

I guess Ted Kennedy won't be the nominee in 1972, but RFK is still possible...

Will Martin Luther King run a pro-civil rights campaign?

Read closer ....



Ted Kennedy Has Accident in Chappaquiddick; None Injured


That doesn't mean someone Mary Jo wasn't in the car with him, just that she wasn't injured/killed.

Yeah but it was the whole woman dying and not reporting the accident thing that derailed his presidency chances, not because he was in the car with Mary Jo.
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NewYorkExpress
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« Reply #172 on: June 06, 2018, 07:49:37 PM »

You sly fox, you said you weren't using Chappaquiddick!!!

I guess Ted Kennedy won't be the nominee in 1972, but RFK is still possible...

Will Martin Luther King run a pro-civil rights campaign?

Read closer ....



Ted Kennedy Has Accident in Chappaquiddick; None Injured


That doesn't mean someone Mary Jo wasn't in the car with him, just that she wasn't injured/killed.

Yeah but it was the whole woman dying and not reporting the accident thing that derailed his presidency chances, not because he was in the car with Mary Jo.

Doesn't mean the affair didn't happen...
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Cold War Liberal
KennedyWannabe99
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« Reply #173 on: June 06, 2018, 11:13:35 PM »

I never said Chappaquiddick wouldn't happen, I just said that even if it didn't (or didn't happen quite how it actually did) there may still be consequences.

Mary Jo was still in the car, Teddy was just actually a decent human IITL and tried, successfully, to save her.
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America Needs R'hllor
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« Reply #174 on: June 07, 2018, 10:12:38 AM »

The American offensive in Vietnam started out quite successfully. The North Vietnamese were pushed out of Saigon, and, with time, back up to the DMZ, thus regaining all the land lost during the Tet Offensive. However, past that line, the Viet Cong dug in and turned to guerilla warfare, which was wildly successful on their home turf against their conventionally-trained adversaries. As time went on, Goldwater sent more and more American troops into foreign jungles, and more and more came home - in body bags. College campuses began to see unrest as the younger generation started to turn against Goldwater and the war (to the extent that they had ever been in favor of either in the first place). However, the general public still broadly supported both the President and the war against Communism. The price of dead soldiers’ lives was worth it to stop domino theory from becoming reality - for now.

This is creepily identical to the words used by my International Relations in the 20th Century professor when we learned about the Vietnam War yesterday Tongue
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