Anti-Semitism in UK Labour megathread

[Frozen Sky Ever Why]

People should not be allowed to question if (individual) British Jews have loyalty to Israel above Britain? LOL

[cp]

Yeah, that was one of the ones that caught my attention, too. I think I see what the motivation is behind including that as part of a definition of anti-semitism. Seeing Jewish people as fifth columnists or delegitimizing their claim to citizenship and the rights thereof are both rhetorical harbingers of anti-semitic pogroms and have been for centuries. But it's worded in an ambiguous enough way that it could be used to stifle someone who disagrees that their own country's national interests and Israeli national interests are always in perfect alignment.

The IHRA baseline definition of anti-semitism is wholly unobjectionable, and most of the examples/illustrations they use to elaborate it are as well, but a few of them seem more concerned with Israeli geopolitics than anti-semitism per se.

[Silent Hunter]

Suspect Hodge will be Ind, Barking before too long.

[Intell]

"Applying double standards by requiring of it a behaviour not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation."

What does this mean? Obviously, moral behaviours should be demanded of every democratic nation, including Israel, including the US and every democratic state. Just because the US and other democratic countries fail in to protect human rights does not mean Israel should be immune from such criticism.

The labour party was not wrong in excluding this from its definition.

"Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis"

I mean it's wrong but not anti-semitic (as the labour party platform does), just as comparing policies of any countries to the nazis is (mostly) wrong but not racist.

Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavour.

I mean denying the Jewish people the right to self-determination is anti-semitic, this being that Jewish people should have been fully allowed to settle in Palestine, their ancestral homeland. Now opposing the creation of Isreal as a Jewish state as wrong and racist while fundamentally wrong is not inherently anti-semitic, especially when such creation resulted in millions of Palestinian refugees and Palestinian people being expelled from their land.

Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.


I mean this is fundamentally anti-semitic and should be part to the labour party anti-semitism definition.

[HisGrace]

We've got a little of this on the left in America with the bourgeoisie intellectual stereotype, but this stuff is so bad.

Corbyn would literally be the worst leader in the western world by far(he would make Trump and Trudeau look great).

Corbyn is terrible but I'm not sure he's Trump-bad since at least he's "high functioning". I don't like Trudeau either but he doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence as either of them.

People should not be allowed to question if (individual) British Jews have loyalty to Israel above Britain? LOL

If you've got evidence that an individual Jew is secretly working for Mossad or something, go for it. But claiming Jews are part of a cabal  and not really loyal to whatever country they're in has been a staple of antisemitism going all the way back to the Romans. In general I'm not one to apply different rules to talking about different ethnic groups, but there are still situations where even I think the context clearly matters, like casually calling a black man a "boy" and other things like that.

[Frozen Sky Ever Why]

We've got a little of this on the left in America with the bourgeoisie intellectual stereotype, but this stuff is so bad.

Corbyn would literally be the worst leader in the western world by far(he would make Trump and Trudeau look great).

Corbyn is terrible but I'm not sure he's Trump-bad since at least he's "high functioning". I don't like Trudeau either but he doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence as either of them.

People should not be allowed to question if (individual) British Jews have loyalty to Israel above Britain? LOL

If you've got evidence that an individual Jew is secretly working for Mossad or something, go for it. But claiming Jews are part of a cabal  and not really loyal to whatever country they're in has been a staple of antisemitism going all the way back to the Romans. In general I'm not one to apply different rules to talking about different ethnic groups, but there are still situations where even I think the context clearly matters, like casually calling a black man a "boy" and other things like that.

What about someone like Sheldon Adelson saying he wishes he served in the Israeli military instead of the US, and he's one of the top donors to one of our major political parties? He even admits Israel is his number one concern.

[America Needs R'hllor]

We've got a little of this on the left in America with the bourgeoisie intellectual stereotype, but this stuff is so bad.

Corbyn would literally be the worst leader in the western world by far(he would make Trump and Trudeau look great).

Corbyn is terrible but I'm not sure he's Trump-bad since at least he's "high functioning". I don't like Trudeau either but he doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence as either of them.

People should not be allowed to question if (individual) British Jews have loyalty to Israel above Britain? LOL

If you've got evidence that an individual Jew is secretly working for Mossad or something, go for it. But claiming Jews are part of a cabal  and not really loyal to whatever country they're in has been a staple of antisemitism going all the way back to the Romans. In general I'm not one to apply different rules to talking about different ethnic groups, but there are still situations where even I think the context clearly matters, like casually calling a black man a "boy" and other things like that.

What about someone like Sheldon Adelson saying he wishes he served in the Israeli military instead of the US, and he's one of the top donors to one of our major political parties? He even admits Israel is his number one concern.

So? This is not an excuse for saying Jews aren't loyal to their country. I'd also turn against my country if it suddenly nuked Greece, does it mean I'm not loyal? No, it's just a matter of priorities. It's not an excuse to use this antisemitic rhetoric. Jesus, this is why we need a country. We'd never be safe as a people without it.

[Frozen Sky Ever Why]

We've got a little of this on the left in America with the bourgeoisie intellectual stereotype, but this stuff is so bad.

Corbyn would literally be the worst leader in the western world by far(he would make Trump and Trudeau look great).

Corbyn is terrible but I'm not sure he's Trump-bad since at least he's "high functioning". I don't like Trudeau either but he doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence as either of them.

People should not be allowed to question if (individual) British Jews have loyalty to Israel above Britain? LOL

If you've got evidence that an individual Jew is secretly working for Mossad or something, go for it. But claiming Jews are part of a cabal  and not really loyal to whatever country they're in has been a staple of antisemitism going all the way back to the Romans. In general I'm not one to apply different rules to talking about different ethnic groups, but there are still situations where even I think the context clearly matters, like casually calling a black man a "boy" and other things like that.

What about someone like Sheldon Adelson saying he wishes he served in the Israeli military instead of the US, and he's one of the top donors to one of our major political parties? He even admits Israel is his number one concern.

So? This is not an excuse for saying Jews aren't loyal to their country. I'd also turn against my country if it suddenly nuked Greece, does it mean I'm not loyal? No, it's just a matter of priorities. It's not an excuse to use this antisemitic rhetoric. Jesus, this is why we need a country. We'd never be safe as a people without it.

So accusing an individual Jew of being more loyal to Israel than their country, even if there is clear evidence of this, is always Antisemitism?

[Velasco]

A casual observer might see with amazement that British Labour seems to be caught in an endless and Byzantine dispute on the definition of antisemitism. Leaving aside casual rhetoric lapses made by someone, all this has a flavour of artificially inflated controversy. Poor Jeremy...

[cp]

A casual observer might see with amazement that British Labour seems to be caught in an endless and Byzantine dispute on the definition of antisemitism. Leaving aside casual rhetoric lapses made by someone, all this has a flavour of artificially inflated controversy. Poor Jeremy...

See, that's where this gets really sticky. There is absolutely no doubt that people who are opposed to Jeremy Corbyn and/or his policies have used the debates over anti-Semitism to try to discredit Corbyn; for those of a conservative bent they extend the calumny to left-wing politics, socialism, or the Labour Party as a whole.

But it's equally undeniable that there are anti-Semitic voices in British society and that the Labour Party's handling of those voices within its own administration has been sub par. (I hasten to add that the Tories have been just as bad with regards to Islamophobia within their party, but that is a separate matter).

All told, this is a real issue that is also being artificially inflated for partisan/ideological gain.

[cp]

We've got a little of this on the left in America with the bourgeoisie intellectual stereotype, but this stuff is so bad.

Corbyn would literally be the worst leader in the western world by far(he would make Trump and Trudeau look great).

Corbyn is terrible but I'm not sure he's Trump-bad since at least he's "high functioning". I don't like Trudeau either but he doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence as either of them.

People should not be allowed to question if (individual) British Jews have loyalty to Israel above Britain? LOL

If you've got evidence that an individual Jew is secretly working for Mossad or something, go for it. But claiming Jews are part of a cabal  and not really loyal to whatever country they're in has been a staple of antisemitism going all the way back to the Romans. In general I'm not one to apply different rules to talking about different ethnic groups, but there are still situations where even I think the context clearly matters, like casually calling a black man a "boy" and other things like that.

What about someone like Sheldon Adelson saying he wishes he served in the Israeli military instead of the US, and he's one of the top donors to one of our major political parties? He even admits Israel is his number one concern.

So? This is not an excuse for saying Jews aren't loyal to their country. I'd also turn against my country if it suddenly nuked Greece, does it mean I'm not loyal? No, it's just a matter of priorities. It's not an excuse to use this antisemitic rhetoric. Jesus, this is why we need a country. We'd never be safe as a people without it.

So accusing an individual Jew of being more loyal to Israel than their country, even if there is clear evidence of this, is always Antisemitism?

I think the problem here is the wording, not the sentiment. Cynical portrayals of Jewish people as disloyal to their country/community has been, as HisGrace pointed out, a depressingly familiar tool for antisemitic rhetoric over the centuries; any definition of antisemitism ought to address that.

The problem is the phrasing used by the IHRA. It's so broad that someone could be labelled an antisemite simply for criticizing an individual Jewish person for being ideologically blinkered in their support for the Israeli government.

(Sorry about the double post, but I wanted to address these separately. Also, the quotes are super long.)

[Frozen Sky Ever Why]

@JewishTelegraph
BREAKING: Britain's leading Jewish weeklies, @JewishTelegraph, @JewishChron and @JewishNewsUK, for the first time have run the same leader on their front pages, with each other's logos as a sign of the extent of communal anger and concern over #LabourAntisemitism
#UnitedWeStand





@sjrbsimon
This is quite something. First, a letter from 68 Rabbi's from all shades of observance.  Now the 3 mainstream community papers unite. This #EnoughIsEnough & Labour antisemitism issue is uniting the community as never before.

@Masters_JamesD
Struggling to remember a time where the mainstream Jewish community in the U.K. ever voiced such discontent en masse. Protests, newspaper campaigns. Today is a huge statement given the rivalries between the three newspapers.

Jewish Caller Tells James O’Brien: “We Live With The Fear Of The Holocaust Again”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWpET43HoRA

^^^I Just wish Corbyn and his circle would grasp the pain and hurt they're inflicting on the Jewish community.... :/

Yeah, Jeremy Corbyn is going to bring about the second Holocaust...that's a serious concern that deserves attention and validation

[Frozen Sky Ever Why]

@JewishTelegraph
BREAKING: Britain's leading Jewish weeklies, @JewishTelegraph, @JewishChron and @JewishNewsUK, for the first time have run the same leader on their front pages, with each other's logos as a sign of the extent of communal anger and concern over #LabourAntisemitism
#UnitedWeStand





@sjrbsimon
This is quite something. First, a letter from 68 Rabbi's from all shades of observance.  Now the 3 mainstream community papers unite. This #EnoughIsEnough & Labour antisemitism issue is uniting the community as never before.

@Masters_JamesD
Struggling to remember a time where the mainstream Jewish community in the U.K. ever voiced such discontent en masse. Protests, newspaper campaigns. Today is a huge statement given the rivalries between the three newspapers.

Jewish Caller Tells James O’Brien: “We Live With The Fear Of The Holocaust Again”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWpET43HoRA

^^^I Just wish Corbyn and his circle would grasp the pain and hurt they're inflicting on the Jewish community.... :/

Yeah, Jeremy Corbyn is going to bring about the second Holocaust...that's a serious concern that deserves attention and validation

Almost every Jewish school, every synagogue and jewish centres are highly guarded throughout England.
The Jewish community get a lot of attacks and abuse, over 11,000  attacks toward members of the Jewish community were recorded in England in 2015,  that might seem a small figure,
but there are around 250,000 people in England that consider themselves Jewish.

This might seem a funny and a ridiculous issue to you, but for many people it isn't....

You realize the Holocaust was a systematic genocide, right? But go on, be deliberately obtuse if it pleases you.

[dead0man]

But go on, be deliberately obtuse if it pleases you.

the ironing is delicious

[Frozen Sky Ever Why]

But go on, be deliberately obtuse if it pleases you.

the ironing is delicious

Would you mind pointing out what you think I said is obtuse? Or do you believe fears of a Corbyn led UK leading to another Holocaust are legitimate?

[Frozen Sky Ever Why]

@JewishTelegraph
BREAKING: Britain's leading Jewish weeklies, @JewishTelegraph, @JewishChron and @JewishNewsUK, for the first time have run the same leader on their front pages, with each other's logos as a sign of the extent of communal anger and concern over #LabourAntisemitism
#UnitedWeStand





@sjrbsimon
This is quite something. First, a letter from 68 Rabbi's from all shades of observance.  Now the 3 mainstream community papers unite. This #EnoughIsEnough & Labour antisemitism issue is uniting the community as never before.

@Masters_JamesD
Struggling to remember a time where the mainstream Jewish community in the U.K. ever voiced such discontent en masse. Protests, newspaper campaigns. Today is a huge statement given the rivalries between the three newspapers.

Jewish Caller Tells James O’Brien: “We Live With The Fear Of The Holocaust Again”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWpET43HoRA

^^^I Just wish Corbyn and his circle would grasp the pain and hurt they're inflicting on the Jewish community.... :/

Yeah, Jeremy Corbyn is going to bring about the second Holocaust...that's a serious concern that deserves attention and validation

Almost every Jewish school, every synagogue and jewish centres are highly guarded throughout England.
The Jewish community get a lot of attacks and abuse, over 11,000  attacks toward members of the Jewish community were recorded in England in 2015,  that might seem a small figure,
but there are around 250,000 people in England that consider themselves Jewish.

This might seem a funny and a ridiculous issue to you, but for many people it isn't....

You realize the Holocaust was a systematic genocide, right? But go on, be deliberately obtuse if it pleases you.

I think you clearly didn't listen to the video link,
the woman clearly said "we live in the fear of Holocaust again, but we just get on with life", she later mentioned Corbyn for not standing up to anti Semitism.

It's still ridiculous. Why would Jews in the UK fear a new Holocaust? Who is going to commit a systematic genocide of UK Jews?  And how would they do so now that Jews have Israel to escape to?

[dead0man]

But go on, be deliberately obtuse if it pleases you.

the ironing is delicious

Would you mind pointing out what you think I said is obtuse? Or do you believe fears of a Corbyn led UK leading to another Holocaust are legitimate?

I think you're not giving the Jewish people in the UK any empathy at all for their plight, dismissing their very legitimate concerns.  And you're being obtuse about it.  Maybe I'm wrong, but by looking at every post of yours in this thread, that's the only conclusion I can come to.  Nothing but push back.  No, there won't be a 1943 style, efficiently German genocide happening to Jews in the UK anytime soon, but they, as individuals face violence and threats of violence that they shouldn't have to face.

[Frozen Sky Ever Why]

But go on, be deliberately obtuse if it pleases you.

the ironing is delicious

Would you mind pointing out what you think I said is obtuse? Or do you believe fears of a Corbyn led UK leading to another Holocaust are legitimate?

I think you're not giving the Jewish people in the UK any empathy at all for their plight, dismissing their very legitimate concerns.  And you're being obtuse about it.  Maybe I'm wrong, but by looking at every post of yours in this thread, that's the only conclusion I can come to.  Nothing but push back.  No, there won't be a 1943 style, efficiently German genocide happening to Jews in the UK anytime soon, but they, as individuals face violence and threats of violence that they shouldn't have to face.

But why is not ridiculous hyperbole for someone to say they fear a second Holocaust? How is pointing out how utterly absurd that statement is equal to not empathizing with the Jewish community at all?

[dead0man]

You were pushing back WAY before the holocaust comment.

[EPG]

A casual observer might see with amazement that British Labour seems to be caught in an endless and Byzantine dispute on the definition of antisemitism. Leaving aside casual rhetoric lapses made by someone, all this has a flavour of artificially inflated controversy. Poor Jeremy...

It's not as if anything in politics works according to scientific natural laws - sorry scientific socialists. Everything is artificial human action.

If anti-semitism sticks to Corbyn, it may be thanks to republishing the picture of rich men with big noses sitting on the backs of humanity, associating with Ken Livingstone who was perceived to have made anti-semitic statements, etc etc. Ultimately if it's all harmless, people will see it as so. But Corbyn isn't the Messiah. He has made errors here. As for those who seek to elicit moral equivalence with anti-semitism in the Conservative party, either we take Jews seriously about this or we don't.

[cp]

I don't think anyone tried to compare anti-Semitism in Tories to anti-Semitism in Labour. I've averred that both parties contain their (relatively small) share of bigots, and that the Tories' racist prejudices are more focused on Muslim people than Jewish people.

Everyone should take accusations of anti-Semitism seriously. Sadly, I think a lot of the people accusing Corbyn of being anti-Semitic are not among them.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

If Bernie Sanders wasn't a Jew who lived in Israel, they'd probably be calling him an anti-semite too. This is getting old.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

If Bernie Sanders wasn't a Jew who lived in Israel, they'd probably be calling him an anti-semite too. This is getting old.

Who are 'they'?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Opponents (internal and external) of Corbyn have o/c used (and will continue to use) this issue for political gain, but that doesn't mean that it isn't a real issue. They have used (and will use) it because it is a glaringly obvious weak spot and that's just how politics is: figures on the Left are the most vulnerable to charges of racism/blindness to and therefore complicity in racism (and it's really this that Corbyn gets hit over) because it doubles up as a charge of hypocrisy, and Corbyn and his circle in general have consistently responded to the issue in a way that indicates panic - they also know it's a weak spot and don't really know how to handle it and as such have made error after error.

The deeply personal nature of Labour factionalism c. 2018 means that any issue that touches on factional divisions at once becomes harder to deal with o/c.* That's Labour's unhealthy internal culture fycking it over again. I also think that Labour is institutionally incapable of dealing effectively with a crisis over racism, ironically because it has defined itself so much as an anti-racist organisation to such an extent that it is only capable of handling complaints on the subject as the product of individual deviancy. I strongly suspect that this would also be the case were the issue claims of serious sexism from members of a particular faction/elements in a leadership team etc.

_{*Because let's be blunt here: you could add the word 'Left' in front of 'megathread' in the title of this thread without fear of narrowing down things excessively or unfairly. Other factions have their own sins, of course.}

[IceAgeComing]

Its also worth emphasising again that anti-semitism is an thing that is present across lots of 'respectable' middle-class society and is often seen as less important than other types of xenophobia.  This isn't just a problem unique to the Labour Party - remember some of the stories ran in the Tory-supporting press about a certain recent Labour Party leader who happened to be Jewish; and how certain Tory MPs prided at spreading some of those tropes around?  Or indeed, some of the things that were recently said about Mr Soros when he spent a bit of money to support groups favouring remaining in the UK.  Not to mention the rather terrible history that the Liberal Democrats have on the subject - how many years did it take them to expel David Laws for example; who said lots of clearly anti-semitic and very nasty things about Jewish people over an incredibly long period and he's not the only one.

Now personally I hold Labour to a much higher standard than I do the Tories or the Liberals because I'm sympathetic to their aims and think that a party that prides itself on its record for challenging racism shouldn't be xenophobic towards anyone.  I'm also not Jewish so I can't really comment on the actual lived experiences of Jewish people and wouldn't try to talk over them to give my opinion on what the Labour Parties response to this whole mess has been.  I do genuinely think that Corbyn isn't anti-semitic himself but is rather ignorant about anti-semitism and that's a problem that needs to be solved if they want to build bridges with the Jewish community.  I think that there are people who're not antisemitic who sometimes use... irresponsible words when sharing their opinion and most reasonable people would understand that and change that wording at least if called out.  However there are anti-semites that were in Labour - Livingstone is an example of this - and its good that the party made the decision that it did about him and people of his ilk although there is more that they could do on the question.

The Tories using the thing as a stick to beat Labour is totally expected - they are Tories after all - but hypocritical - look at the above example - but also typical of what all in politics do.  Labour factionalism is toxic and incomprehensible to a non-Labour member like me so I'll concede to Al over it since he clearly knows a lot more than I do.

It's still ridiculous. Why would Jews in the UK fear a new Holocaust? Who is going to commit a systematic genocide of UK Jews?  And how would they do so now that Jews have Israel to escape to?

There are lots of Jewish people in the World; I would wager that most of them who live outside Israel have no interest in moving their unless they are forced to.  Besides; the subtext that I'm getting from this post is that anti-semitism isn't a bog problem since Jewish people can just move to a safe place which isn't overly compassionate, ignores the deep history that the Jewish Community in London has and also would apply to many other nasty forms of discrimination that you probably wouldn't be quite as flippant about.