Am I the only one that feels like our society is crumbling

[pbrower2a]

lol people who live in a bubble and never struggled for anything coming in and saying society is crumbling. go buy your $5 latte and $10 toast and opine about the fall of America

It takes a lot of $5 lattes to match the monthly payment for a pickup truck that is far more expensive to buy and keep fueled than some compact car that is more practical. The people who have bought those overpriced pickup trucks that are more vehicle than they need (you can rent one when you really need one unless you are in a business that needs one, in which case you can afford buying the truck outright) have typically struggled all their lives, and in view of how they vote (that sounds like a Trump voter) they are in just as big a bubble as those who can afford the $5 latte and $10 toast.

I live in a rural area drowning in meth and opiates -- a part of Michigan that is basically eastern Kentucky without the hills. If you can't imagine what parental drug use does to kids...  I have no children, but you can imagine what I would want them to think about certain things. Children should not grow up thinking that the police are the "Blue Meanies" because they bust their parents' meth lab or arrest parents when they get into a fight. The problem isn't that meth is illegal; the problem is that meth messes people up so badly that it makes police action necessary.

We have a mass culture that denigrates formal learning, and any kid who grows up in it will be handicapped in competition with adults who as kids have taken school seriously. That mass culture does even more harm to kids than Jim Crow racism did to blacks. We reel now as a culture that treated sexual harassment as a perquisite of power until recently unravels on sexual conduct of some people with very high profiles -- including the current President. OK, so we are doing some things about it, which indicates that we are not crumbling as badly as we would be if we simply shrugged it off.

Our educational system does little even at the undergraduate level to shape the potential leaders of our society (that includes the college graduate who gets a job at the auto plant and becomes a shop steward with the UAW, so that is a leader) the capital to make moral choices at some personal sacrifice. Because life for our college graduates often has its focus on sex, material gain and indulgence, bureaucratic power, and entertainment and our society treats those who can give up any one of those for principle as schmucks, such an old standard as

Do not lie, cheat, or steal; do not tolerate lying, cheating, or stealing by others

becomes "Go ahead, but just don't get caught."

People who have the choice between the morally-good life and living large but are smart enough to know the consequences of a vile social order aren't making the choice for moral goodness.
And, yes, our political system is in bad shape. America is badly polarized because identity matters more than quality, and because our legislative branch is under the control of lobbyists. Yes, that was as true with Barack Obama as it is with Donald Trump; Obama resisted the trend, but Trump exults in it. "Constituent service" used to mean the people in one's district; it now means giving spoils to those who hire the lobbyists.

...I'm not going to disparage the $5 latte or the $10 toast; the American consumer society depends upon people making consumer choices and not living in ashes and sack-cloth. The consumer society is what has kept America from facing a proletarian revolution.

[Ban my account ffs!]

I don't feel like it is crumbling? Life seems to get better with each passing day. We are building gorgeous structures fit for the current year and beautifying everything that used to be an eyesore. I don't think things could be much better from an American urbanite's perspective. Even church attendance has been booming the past few months.

This feels a little too North Korean to me.

pro-tip: Sprouts is a low-effort troll who you should never take seriously and probably belongs on your ignore list

Your intellect is just too basic for you to grasp the intricate complexity and sheer impressiveness of Sprout's trolling job.  Those of us that do are laughing at you people, not Sprouts.

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

I don't feel like it is crumbling? Life seems to get better with each passing day. We are building gorgeous structures fit for the current year and beautifying everything that used to be an eyesore. I don't think things could be much better from an American urbanite's perspective. Even church attendance has been booming the past few months.

This feels a little too North Korean to me.

pro-tip: Sprouts is a low-effort troll who you should never take seriously and probably belongs on your ignore list

Sprouts is one of our best posters, and you should all try to sound more like him. What sounds North Korean is, of course, Bloomberg’s post.

Thanks Cath! I don't understand how my post could be remotely construed as trolling! Our whole world really has not been in such strong shape ever before. We have a fair share of problems that we can always work on improving, but complaining about THE NATIONAL DEBT and being hysteric about crime, come on...There is an economic boom ongoing for the majority of this country. The only place where you will find people not get along fantastically is on the Internet. Technology is the one big negative in that respect. But society seems to be going quite well on the whole.

I disagree with my former mayor on the reasons why and on how he forms his ideal rootless society. But it's undeniably on the upswing (not attributing to anything political).

[ProudModerate2]

I don't feel like it is crumbling? Life seems to get better with each passing day. We are building gorgeous structures fit for the current year and beautifying everything that used to be an eyesore. I don't think things could be much better from an American urbanite's perspective. Even church attendance has been booming the past few months.

This feels a little too North Korean to me.

pro-tip: Sprouts is a low-effort troll who you should never take seriously and probably belongs on your ignore list

Sprouts is one of our best posters, and you should all try to sound more like him. What sounds North Korean is, of course, Bloomberg’s post.

Thanks Cath! I don't understand how my post could be remotely construed as trolling! Our whole world really has not been in such strong shape ever before. We have a fair share of problems that we can always work on improving, but complaining about THE NATIONAL DEBT and being hysteric about crime, come on...There is an economic boom ongoing for the majority of this country. The only place where you will find people not get along fantastically is on the Internet. Technology is the one big negative in that respect. But society seems to be going quite well on the whole.

I disagree with my former mayor on the reasons why and on how he forms his ideal rootless society. But it's undeniably on the upswing (not attributing to anything political).

Just more trolling from "Sprouts Funny Farm." Typical.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

I don't feel like it is crumbling? Life seems to get better with each passing day. We are building gorgeous structures fit for the current year and beautifying everything that used to be an eyesore. I don't think things could be much better from an American urbanite's perspective. Even church attendance has been booming the past few months.

This feels a little too North Korean to me.

pro-tip: Sprouts is a low-effort troll who you should never take seriously and probably belongs on your ignore list

Sprouts is one of our best posters, and you should all try to sound more like him. What sounds North Korean is, of course, Bloomberg’s post.

Thanks Cath! I don't understand how my post could be remotely construed as trolling! Our whole world really has not been in such strong shape ever before. We have a fair share of problems that we can always work on improving, but complaining about THE NATIONAL DEBT and being hysteric about crime, come on...There is an economic boom ongoing for the majority of this country. The only place where you will find people not get along fantastically is on the Internet. Technology is the one big negative in that respect. But society seems to be going quite well on the whole.

I disagree with my former mayor on the reasons why and on how he forms his ideal rootless society. But it's undeniably on the upswing (not attributing to anything political).

My comments stand despite our occasional disagreements—I’m not one for optimism.

I don't feel like it is crumbling? Life seems to get better with each passing day. We are building gorgeous structures fit for the current year and beautifying everything that used to be an eyesore. I don't think things could be much better from an American urbanite's perspective. Even church attendance has been booming the past few months.

This feels a little too North Korean to me.

pro-tip: Sprouts is a low-effort troll who you should never take seriously and probably belongs on your ignore list

Sprouts is one of our best posters, and you should all try to sound more like him. What sounds North Korean is, of course, Bloomberg’s post.

Thanks Cath! I don't understand how my post could be remotely construed as trolling! Our whole world really has not been in such strong shape ever before. We have a fair share of problems that we can always work on improving, but complaining about THE NATIONAL DEBT and being hysteric about crime, come on...There is an economic boom ongoing for the majority of this country. The only place where you will find people not get along fantastically is on the Internet. Technology is the one big negative in that respect. But society seems to be going quite well on the whole.

I disagree with my former mayor on the reasons why and on how he forms his ideal rootless society. But it's undeniably on the upswing (not attributing to anything political).

Just more trolling from "Sprouts Funny Farm." Typical.

Aren’t you like a forum non-entity?

[ProudModerate2]

I don't feel like it is crumbling? Life seems to get better with each passing day. We are building gorgeous structures fit for the current year and beautifying everything that used to be an eyesore. I don't think things could be much better from an American urbanite's perspective. Even church attendance has been booming the past few months.

This feels a little too North Korean to me.

pro-tip: Sprouts is a low-effort troll who you should never take seriously and probably belongs on your ignore list

Sprouts is one of our best posters, and you should all try to sound more like him. What sounds North Korean is, of course, Bloomberg’s post.

Thanks Cath! I don't understand how my post could be remotely construed as trolling! Our whole world really has not been in such strong shape ever before. We have a fair share of problems that we can always work on improving, but complaining about THE NATIONAL DEBT and being hysteric about crime, come on...There is an economic boom ongoing for the majority of this country. The only place where you will find people not get along fantastically is on the Internet. Technology is the one big negative in that respect. But society seems to be going quite well on the whole.

I disagree with my former mayor on the reasons why and on how he forms his ideal rootless society. But it's undeniably on the upswing (not attributing to anything political).

Just more trolling from "Sprouts Funny Farm." Typical.

Aren’t you like a forum non-entity?

Aren't you like a forum mod non-entity?

[Ban my account ffs!]

I don't feel like it is crumbling? Life seems to get better with each passing day. We are building gorgeous structures fit for the current year and beautifying everything that used to be an eyesore. I don't think things could be much better from an American urbanite's perspective. Even church attendance has been booming the past few months.

This feels a little too North Korean to me.

pro-tip: Sprouts is a low-effort troll who you should never take seriously and probably belongs on your ignore list

Sprouts is one of our best posters, and you should all try to sound more like him. What sounds North Korean is, of course, Bloomberg’s post.

Thanks Cath! I don't understand how my post could be remotely construed as trolling! Our whole world really has not been in such strong shape ever before. We have a fair share of problems that we can always work on improving, but complaining about THE NATIONAL DEBT and being hysteric about crime, come on...There is an economic boom ongoing for the majority of this country. The only place where you will find people not get along fantastically is on the Internet. Technology is the one big negative in that respect. But society seems to be going quite well on the whole.

I disagree with my former mayor on the reasons why and on how he forms his ideal rootless society. But it's undeniably on the upswing (not attributing to anything political).

Just more trolling from "Sprouts Funny Farm." Typical.

Aren’t you like a forum non-entity?

Aren't you like a forum mod non-entity?

BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUURN

[Starry Eyed Jagaloon]

I don't feel like it is crumbling? Life seems to get better with each passing day. We are building gorgeous structures fit for the current year and beautifying everything that used to be an eyesore. I don't think things could be much better from an American urbanite's perspective. Even church attendance has been booming the past few months.

This feels a little too North Korean to me.

pro-tip: Sprouts is a low-effort troll who you should never take seriously and probably belongs on your ignore list

Sprouts is one of our best posters, and you should all try to sound more like him. What sounds North Korean is, of course, Bloomberg’s post.

How so? I'm espousing pure liberal capitalist Democratic views here.

[Devout Centrist]

pro-tip: Sprouts is a low-effort troll who you should never take seriously and probably belongs on your ignore list

what you got against Sprouts?

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

I don't feel like it is crumbling? Life seems to get better with each passing day. We are building gorgeous structures fit for the current year and beautifying everything that used to be an eyesore. I don't think things could be much better from an American urbanite's perspective. Even church attendance has been booming the past few months.

This feels a little too North Korean to me.

pro-tip: Sprouts is a low-effort troll who you should never take seriously and probably belongs on your ignore list

Sprouts is one of our best posters, and you should all try to sound more like him. What sounds North Korean is, of course, Bloomberg’s post.

Thanks Cath! I don't understand how my post could be remotely construed as trolling! Our whole world really has not been in such strong shape ever before. We have a fair share of problems that we can always work on improving, but complaining about THE NATIONAL DEBT and being hysteric about crime, come on...There is an economic boom ongoing for the majority of this country. The only place where you will find people not get along fantastically is on the Internet. Technology is the one big negative in that respect. But society seems to be going quite well on the whole.

I disagree with my former mayor on the reasons why and on how he forms his ideal rootless society. But it's undeniably on the upswing (not attributing to anything political).

Just more trolling from "Sprouts Funny Farm." Typical.

Aren’t you like a forum non-entity?

Aren't you like a forum mod non-entity?

Aren’t you like twelve?

[ProudModerate2]

I don't feel like it is crumbling? Life seems to get better with each passing day. We are building gorgeous structures fit for the current year and beautifying everything that used to be an eyesore. I don't think things could be much better from an American urbanite's perspective. Even church attendance has been booming the past few months.

This feels a little too North Korean to me.

pro-tip: Sprouts is a low-effort troll who you should never take seriously and probably belongs on your ignore list

Sprouts is one of our best posters, and you should all try to sound more like him. What sounds North Korean is, of course, Bloomberg’s post.

Thanks Cath! I don't understand how my post could be remotely construed as trolling! Our whole world really has not been in such strong shape ever before. We have a fair share of problems that we can always work on improving, but complaining about THE NATIONAL DEBT and being hysteric about crime, come on...There is an economic boom ongoing for the majority of this country. The only place where you will find people not get along fantastically is on the Internet. Technology is the one big negative in that respect. But society seems to be going quite well on the whole.

I disagree with my former mayor on the reasons why and on how he forms his ideal rootless society. But it's undeniably on the upswing (not attributing to anything political).

Just more trolling from "Sprouts Funny Farm." Typical.

Aren’t you like a forum non-entity?

Aren't you like a forum mod non-entity?

Aren’t you like twelve?

LOL. Coming from you, that is hilarious.
Go fix your fake teeth or something.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

I don't feel like it is crumbling? Life seems to get better with each passing day. We are building gorgeous structures fit for the current year and beautifying everything that used to be an eyesore. I don't think things could be much better from an American urbanite's perspective. Even church attendance has been booming the past few months.

This feels a little too North Korean to me.

pro-tip: Sprouts is a low-effort troll who you should never take seriously and probably belongs on your ignore list

Sprouts is one of our best posters, and you should all try to sound more like him. What sounds North Korean is, of course, Bloomberg’s post.

Thanks Cath! I don't understand how my post could be remotely construed as trolling! Our whole world really has not been in such strong shape ever before. We have a fair share of problems that we can always work on improving, but complaining about THE NATIONAL DEBT and being hysteric about crime, come on...There is an economic boom ongoing for the majority of this country. The only place where you will find people not get along fantastically is on the Internet. Technology is the one big negative in that respect. But society seems to be going quite well on the whole.

I disagree with my former mayor on the reasons why and on how he forms his ideal rootless society. But it's undeniably on the upswing (not attributing to anything political).

Just more trolling from "Sprouts Funny Farm." Typical.

Aren’t you like a forum non-entity?

Aren't you like a forum mod non-entity?

Aren’t you like twelve?

LOL. Coming from you, that is hilarious.
Go fix your fake teeth or something.

Oh so you’re ten. Gotcha.

PS you’re a penisface.

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

I don't want to make this thread about me; let's limit any useless discussion - thank you for your passion. I just fail to see how people can be so bitter and miserable about economic outcomes and social interactions. What can you possibly be witnessing in your daily lives all of a sudden? Are people just becoming demoralized that their fondest dreams aren't so real no matter how hard they try? What point are we crumbling from? At best, you can say something like people lacking access to healthcare has always been bad. But it's no worse now! I'm just asking for an answer to very basic questions. When was this oh-so-wonderful peak with these outcomes? If someone lives in a disaffected rural area and wants to say, dial back the clock 15-20-25 years, I sort of get it, but I don't see this as a reflection on society at-large.

On the other hand, I am generally very pessimistic about the future and the direction of culture, but on the matters this thread is about, social progress is growing leaps and bounds.

[BudgieForce]

Maybe this is how every generation feels, but it seems to me that the moral fabric of our society is slowly coming undone. Maybe I spend too much time on the internet.

[Horus]

I'm not seeing it. A rough patch? Sure. Crumbling society? No. In many ways we're safer and better off than ever before.

[Beet]

I think it's clear that our society is unraveling. You have a president who lies every day and is basically a professional troll and bully, but he's still president. You have an administration that refuses to protect the American people from election meddling because it benefited his party, and who openly repays the people who meddled on his behalf. You have an acceleration of political polarization to the point where the basic values of our political system, including representative government, are tossed aside in favor of legalistic partisan advantage. You have a fanaticism over weapons possession among the civilian population to the point where any regulation, no matter how minor, is a third rail. You have a population that no longer cares what is true, severing the last tie of a common ground of communication, debate, and discussion. You have a collapse in the percentage of people who believe that it's essential to have the form of government that we do. You have a degeneration of things like ideas and character, which depend on people's good behavior and thoughts, and an elevation of identity, which assigns people value regardless of those things.

On the social level, you have people increasingly disappearing into social media even though evidence is piling up that it's unhealthy. You have rising drug addiction rates, drug overdoses, and suicides. You have a proliferation of, anecdotally, hate and animosity. You have many people's lives being ruined in a disproportionate manner or losing their jobs in a form of extreme political correctness on the one hand, and a radicalization where there are a proliferation of people adopting extreme ideologies on the other hand. You have a collapsing trust in our institutions. You see an increase in prominent defection rates in the innards of the national security apparatus. You see a decline in traditionally American political values worldwide. New vulnerabilities have been revealed in American security (9/11), the American economy (2008), the post-Cold War order (2014), and the American political and intelligence establishment (2016) that were previously unheard of. We are closer to nuclear war than we have been in decades. Even the decades-long decline in crime rates seems to have come to a halt.

It is not all bleak (the economy is fine, teen pregnancy is down, cancer and AIDS mortality has improved, there is new excitement in the area of space) but the bad is enough to make a trend, similar to the "malaise" trend of the late 1960s and 1970s, at least.

[HillGoose]

no, people always say that

[Kleine Scheiße]

Every generation has a sizeable group that believes they’ll be the last.

[Ban my account ffs!]

Every generation has a sizeable group that believes they’ll be the last.

O rly?

[Person Man]

This period in time has opportunity, but it's been more challenging than most modern times for various reasons.

[HillGoose]

Every generation has a sizeable group that believes they’ll be the last.

O rly?

yeah. Some fuucking Greek philosopher (can't remember who, but I'm sure someone could find it) in like fuucking 300 BC was talking about how "the youth of today are corrupt and care about nothing" or something like that. Old people just want sh!t to complain about to feel better about their own flaws.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

I don't feel like it is crumbling? Life seems to get better with each passing day. We are building gorgeous structures fit for the current year and beautifying everything that used to be an eyesore. I don't think things could be much better from an American urbanite's perspective. Even church attendance has been booming the past few months.

This feels a little too North Korean to me.

pro-tip: Sprouts is a low-effort troll who you should never take seriously and probably belongs on your ignore list

Sprouts is one of our best posters, and you should all try to sound more like him. What sounds North Korean is, of course, Bloomberg’s post.

Thanks Cath! I don't understand how my post could be remotely construed as trolling! Our whole world really has not been in such strong shape ever before. We have a fair share of problems that we can always work on improving, but complaining about THE NATIONAL DEBT and being hysteric about crime, come on...There is an economic boom ongoing for the majority of this country. The only place where you will find people not get along fantastically is on the Internet. Technology is the one big negative in that respect. But society seems to be going quite well on the whole.

I disagree with my former mayor on the reasons why and on how he forms his ideal rootless society. But it's undeniably on the upswing (not attributing to anything political).

Just more trolling from "Sprouts Funny Farm." Typical.

Aren’t you like a forum non-entity?

Aren't you like a forum mod non-entity?

Sadly, my push to finally gain the power unilaterally ban garbage posters has recently ground ahalt, so my activities have been somewhat restricted. Besides, I have but one board.

[TJ in Oregon]

Our society is crumbling because it is built upon an individualism without higher commitments beyond the self to restrain it. A society has to actually be built upon something: some set of principles, morals, codes, religions, etc. in order to evaluate and resolve controversies. In many ways our society is constructed such that all concerns are valid except for those that constitute some sort of higher principles. And while this is true in the political sphere, that's not really the heart of the issue. Somehow the idea of tolerance turned out to mean that it is in bad taste to openly profess firm views in matters of philosophy and religion (and to a lesser degree politics). For example, I used to have a coworker with whom I had substantial disagreements about philosophy and religion that informed our political differences, but instead of actually discussing things we cared about, we spent most of our time bickering about Trump and Russia, which neither one of us pretty clearly actually cared about. I think this sort of thing is indicative of a wider social atmosphere where discussions have nothing to do with substantive disagreements and everything to do with trying to score a couple cheap points by throwing around mud at random and hoping some sticks.

In short: Principles >>>> Outcomes

[HillGoose]

Our society is crumbling because it is built upon an individualism without higher commitments beyond the self to restrain it. A society has to actually be built upon something: some set of principles, morals, codes, religions, etc. in order to evaluate and resolve controversies. In many ways our society is constructed such that all concerns are valid except for those that constitute some sort of higher principles. And while this is true in the political sphere, that's not really the heart of the issue. Somehow the idea of tolerance turned out to mean that it is in bad taste to openly profess firm views in matters of philosophy and religion (and to a lesser degree politics). For example, I used to have a coworker with whom I had substantial disagreements about philosophy and religion that informed our political differences, but instead of actually discussing things we cared about, we spent most of our time bickering about Trump and Russia, which neither one of us pretty clearly actually cared about. I think this sort of thing is indicative of a wider social atmosphere where discussions have nothing to do with substantive disagreements and everything to do with trying to score a couple cheap points by throwing around mud at random and hoping some sticks.

In short: Principles >>>> Outcomes

America was founded on individualism and getting the best for yourself.

If it would get me a 5% pay raise I'd force a 50% pay cut on all my coworkers. That's a good thing.

[TJ in Oregon]

Our society is crumbling because it is built upon an individualism without higher commitments beyond the self to restrain it. A society has to actually be built upon something: some set of principles, morals, codes, religions, etc. in order to evaluate and resolve controversies. In many ways our society is constructed such that all concerns are valid except for those that constitute some sort of higher principles. And while this is true in the political sphere, that's not really the heart of the issue. Somehow the idea of tolerance turned out to mean that it is in bad taste to openly profess firm views in matters of philosophy and religion (and to a lesser degree politics). For example, I used to have a coworker with whom I had substantial disagreements about philosophy and religion that informed our political differences, but instead of actually discussing things we cared about, we spent most of our time bickering about Trump and Russia, which neither one of us pretty clearly actually cared about. I think this sort of thing is indicative of a wider social atmosphere where discussions have nothing to do with substantive disagreements and everything to do with trying to score a couple cheap points by throwing around mud at random and hoping some sticks.

In short: Principles >>>> Outcomes

America was founded on individualism and getting the best for yourself.

If it would get me a 5% pay raise I'd force a 50% pay cut on all my coworkers. That's a good thing.

If you could, then they could do the same to you, and frankly, one of them would probably win. And that's not a good thing, least not if you want a functional society. If you don't, then you should be happy to find it crumbling!