Am I the only one that feels like our society is crumbling

[Holy Unifying Centrist]

If it would get me a 5% pay raise I'd force a 50% pay cut on all my coworkers. That's a good thing.

I hope to god that most people aren't like you. You would probably be much happier in your life if you cared more about others.

[HillGoose]

Our society is crumbling because it is built upon an individualism without higher commitments beyond the self to restrain it. A society has to actually be built upon something: some set of principles, morals, codes, religions, etc. in order to evaluate and resolve controversies. In many ways our society is constructed such that all concerns are valid except for those that constitute some sort of higher principles. And while this is true in the political sphere, that's not really the heart of the issue. Somehow the idea of tolerance turned out to mean that it is in bad taste to openly profess firm views in matters of philosophy and religion (and to a lesser degree politics). For example, I used to have a coworker with whom I had substantial disagreements about philosophy and religion that informed our political differences, but instead of actually discussing things we cared about, we spent most of our time bickering about Trump and Russia, which neither one of us pretty clearly actually cared about. I think this sort of thing is indicative of a wider social atmosphere where discussions have nothing to do with substantive disagreements and everything to do with trying to score a couple cheap points by throwing around mud at random and hoping some sticks.

In short: Principles >>>> Outcomes

America was founded on individualism and getting the best for yourself.

If it would get me a 5% pay raise I'd force a 50% pay cut on all my coworkers. That's a good thing.

If you could, then they could do the same to you, and frankly, one of them would probably win. And that's not a good thing, least not if you want a functional society. If you don't, then you should be happy to find it crumbling!

yeah they could do the same to me idfc that just means my parents were right when they said I'm worthless

[TJ in Oregon]

Our society is crumbling because it is built upon an individualism without higher commitments beyond the self to restrain it. A society has to actually be built upon something: some set of principles, morals, codes, religions, etc. in order to evaluate and resolve controversies. In many ways our society is constructed such that all concerns are valid except for those that constitute some sort of higher principles. And while this is true in the political sphere, that's not really the heart of the issue. Somehow the idea of tolerance turned out to mean that it is in bad taste to openly profess firm views in matters of philosophy and religion (and to a lesser degree politics). For example, I used to have a coworker with whom I had substantial disagreements about philosophy and religion that informed our political differences, but instead of actually discussing things we cared about, we spent most of our time bickering about Trump and Russia, which neither one of us pretty clearly actually cared about. I think this sort of thing is indicative of a wider social atmosphere where discussions have nothing to do with substantive disagreements and everything to do with trying to score a couple cheap points by throwing around mud at random and hoping some sticks.

In short: Principles >>>> Outcomes

America was founded on individualism and getting the best for yourself.

If it would get me a 5% pay raise I'd force a 50% pay cut on all my coworkers. That's a good thing.

If you could, then they could do the same to you, and frankly, one of them would probably win. And that's not a good thing, least not if you want a functional society. If you don't, then you should be happy to find it crumbling!

yeah they could do the same to me idfc that just means my parents were right when they said I'm worthless

Can't beat out literally everyone =/= worthless. Your value as a human being is not dependent on success.

[Person Man]

The sad thing is that I triggered half the forum when I wass just trying to make a benign observation. Obviously something is going on around here. In general, we are doing OK but there are serious problems on the horizon which wouldn't normally be an issue but people just aren't ready to deal with them yet and it could be too late when they do. On the other hand, maybe there will be modest half solutions that buy us years, if not decades. We found a work around to the Ozone problem and have been able to stretch our fossil fuel supplies by 70 years in the last 10. We also bought ourselves another 20 years to solve the healthcare problem though it may be cancelled while healthcare outcomes steadily deteriorate.

[Ban my account ffs!]

Strauss and Howe analyzed and predicted all this Cath.  We've been in the "unraveling" period which is transitioning into a crisis.  The hallmark trend in an unraveling is increased atomization and distrust of institutions.

The crisis brings about a sudden shift away from individualism and forces us to rebuild our institutions which are then quite strong throughout the "high" that follows the crisis... only to be broken down again... and so on and so forth ad infinitum.

[HillGoose]

Our society is crumbling because it is built upon an individualism without higher commitments beyond the self to restrain it. A society has to actually be built upon something: some set of principles, morals, codes, religions, etc. in order to evaluate and resolve controversies. In many ways our society is constructed such that all concerns are valid except for those that constitute some sort of higher principles. And while this is true in the political sphere, that's not really the heart of the issue. Somehow the idea of tolerance turned out to mean that it is in bad taste to openly profess firm views in matters of philosophy and religion (and to a lesser degree politics). For example, I used to have a coworker with whom I had substantial disagreements about philosophy and religion that informed our political differences, but instead of actually discussing things we cared about, we spent most of our time bickering about Trump and Russia, which neither one of us pretty clearly actually cared about. I think this sort of thing is indicative of a wider social atmosphere where discussions have nothing to do with substantive disagreements and everything to do with trying to score a couple cheap points by throwing around mud at random and hoping some sticks.

In short: Principles >>>> Outcomes

America was founded on individualism and getting the best for yourself.

If it would get me a 5% pay raise I'd force a 50% pay cut on all my coworkers. That's a good thing.

I agree with HillGoose’s assertion that American society is crumbling.

In all seriousness, a review of history reveals the extent to which atomistic individualism—to the point of some ridiculous nonaggression principle—has never been a force that moved society. People fight for their own immediate security, or for some broader concept of an order in which they can live (so they think) more securely and peacefully, and which matches their general assumptions about life. Even the fight for liberalism has been the fight for a particular kind of authority, where a particular kind and amount of people rule and/or prosper. To frame this in individualistic terms is absurd. And the fact is that a more stable way of living will depend on the assertion of some sort of positive value system rather than a simple negation of certain forms of authority. The typical conservative complaining over a lack of God in schools merely represents a general critique of a lack of social cohesion that we would be good to counteract.

Not all of us think the world would be better off with more "social cohesion"

I myself hate pretty much everyone, and will do everything I can to avoid being "cohesive" with them

[HillGoose]

Our society is crumbling because it is built upon an individualism without higher commitments beyond the self to restrain it. A society has to actually be built upon something: some set of principles, morals, codes, religions, etc. in order to evaluate and resolve controversies. In many ways our society is constructed such that all concerns are valid except for those that constitute some sort of higher principles. And while this is true in the political sphere, that's not really the heart of the issue. Somehow the idea of tolerance turned out to mean that it is in bad taste to openly profess firm views in matters of philosophy and religion (and to a lesser degree politics). For example, I used to have a coworker with whom I had substantial disagreements about philosophy and religion that informed our political differences, but instead of actually discussing things we cared about, we spent most of our time bickering about Trump and Russia, which neither one of us pretty clearly actually cared about. I think this sort of thing is indicative of a wider social atmosphere where discussions have nothing to do with substantive disagreements and everything to do with trying to score a couple cheap points by throwing around mud at random and hoping some sticks.

In short: Principles >>>> Outcomes

America was founded on individualism and getting the best for yourself.

If it would get me a 5% pay raise I'd force a 50% pay cut on all my coworkers. That's a good thing.

I agree with HillGoose’s assertion that American society is crumbling.

In all seriousness, a review of history reveals the extent to which atomistic individualism—to the point of some ridiculous nonaggression principle—has never been a force that moved society. People fight for their own immediate security, or for some broader concept of an order in which they can live (so they think) more securely and peacefully, and which matches their general assumptions about life. Even the fight for liberalism has been the fight for a particular kind of authority, where a particular kind and amount of people rule and/or prosper. To frame this in individualistic terms is absurd. And the fact is that a more stable way of living will depend on the assertion of some sort of positive value system rather than a simple negation of certain forms of authority. The typical conservative complaining over a lack of God in schools merely represents a general critique of a lack of social cohesion that we would be good to counteract.

Not all of us think the world would be better off with more "social cohesion"

I myself hate pretty much everyone, and will do everything I can to avoid being "cohesive" with them

“Would you like people even a little bit more if you related to them better?”

no, i don't want to relate to people. if i relate to them then they will know my weaknesses and can use them against me.

You see why relating to people is bad?

[ProudModerate2]

Not all of us think the world would be better off with more "social cohesion"
I myself hate pretty much everyone, and will do everything I can to avoid being "cohesive" with them

“Would you like people even a little bit more if you related to them better?”

no, i don't want to relate to people. if i relate to them then they will know my weaknesses and can use them against me.
You see why relating to people is bad?

What life must be living like walking on eggshells, fearing everyone around you.
You are one sad individual.

[HillGoose]

Not all of us think the world would be better off with more "social cohesion"
I myself hate pretty much everyone, and will do everything I can to avoid being "cohesive" with them

“Would you like people even a little bit more if you related to them better?”

no, i don't want to relate to people. if i relate to them then they will know my weaknesses and can use them against me.
You see why relating to people is bad?

What life must be living like walking on eggshells, fearing everyone around you.
You are one sad individual.

I think it would be better if everyone was like that. you know, minded their own business and only did what was good for themselves.

If you let others into your life, you never know who is going to try to hurt you.

[The Arizonan]

Yes, American society is slowly crumbling.

I suspect that the United States is going to collapse or get destroyed by 2030.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

Yes, American society is slowly crumbling.

I suspect that the United States is going to collapse or get destroyed by 2030.

While I think we're on the downhill, and I think that's possible, I don't think it's likely. Look how long the Roman or British Empires' downward slides lasted. I'd bet we're going to run into some real shocks to the system that shake things up, though, and that have a good chance of decreasing quality of life for many Americans - either a lot more violence than Americans are used to, basically a low-end civil war (thanks to Trump and the GOPs delusional rhetoric of violence and hate) or a major economic crash, as bad as the Great Depression.