If Non Binary Genders are Real and Just as Valid as Man and Woman...

[Wisconsin SC Race 2019]

Racism was wrong because it hurt people and attacked the core of their humanity.

And let me guess, people with depression or anxiety have to "prove" they're not just making it all up? You have literally zero evidence that its a fantasy. Do you have any idea how hard it is to "prove" ones identity? You need millions in grant money, a team of researchers, and decades of time. Until or unless that happens, the only inkling of evidence we have is that the one person who actually sees their own heart and soul feels the way they do.

Oh, so gender dysphoria is now equated to depression/anxiety, both serious mental disorders. Hmm, you made my point for me.

[world.execute(me)]

Racism was wrong because it hurt people and attacked the core of their humanity.

And let me guess, people with depression or anxiety have to "prove" they're not just making it all up? You have literally zero evidence that its a fantasy. Do you have any idea how hard it is to "prove" ones identity? You need millions in grant money, a team of researchers, and decades of time. Until or unless that happens, the only inkling of evidence we have is that the one person who actually sees their own heart and soul feels the way they do.

Oh, so gender dysphoria is now equated to depression/anxiety, both serious mental disorders. Hmm, you made my point for me.

That's a pretty f##ked up interpretation of what I said. Neither of those are labels that make people "just crazy" or whatever gross s##t you believe. The point is that denying that trans people's struggles are real because they don't have "proof" is equivalent to declaring that people don't have anxiety or depression unless they prove it's a biological reality or whatever.

It's pretty clear that the only thing you're interested in its being transphobic.

[Kleine Scheiße]

There are already accounts of trans "women" demanding access to lesbian bodies and calling anyone refusing to sleep with/date them "transphobes. Look up Riley Dennis.

Ignoring the scare quotes, this attitude is indeed bad IMO, but it also isn't what we were talking about.

I mean, we ensure that ethnic minorities have their dignity by preventing cultural appropriation. Why can't we protect women and their spaces?

We can. Trans women are women.

Bolded for accuracy.

Hardly anyone but the extremely delusional honestly believes it is transphobic to refuse to date or have sex with someone on the basis that you don’t want to. The point of the “cotton ceiling” train of thought is essentially to raise a thought experiment; am I denying this person because I earnestly am not interested (and lack of attraction as a practical reality of the trans person’s physical characteristics is an entirely valid reason as any other), or do I actually like them but am just freaked out by the fact that they’re trans? If it’s the latter, you still have no obligation to do anything, of course, but it’s indicative of a problematic mindset.

No one should be forced to do anything they don’t want to but it’d be foolish to say it’s not worth analyzing your own worldview and your reasons for your actions. Now, it would be equally as silly to try to make people actually verbally justify themselves; nobody should feel like they have to explain themselves in this regard, but private self-reflection is a good moral ideal that should apply to all decisions.

Regardless, it’s ridiculous to compare the transgender experience to cultural appropriation. There is no basis whatsoever to this; it’d be like saying that Spain shouldn’t be in the EU because their acceptance as “Europeans” was a corrupting influence on France’s “Europeanness.” Cis women and trans women have different experiences, surely, but there’s virtually no one denying that. Cis women and trans women are both women. Are you concerned about black men erasing the experience-narrative of white men? Afraid of being outnumbered by this population so easily dismissed as a numerical footnote? Being one thing does not automatically make you another. What, exactly, are you afraid of?

There is no evidence that there is any erasure of the cis female experience inherent as a result of accepting trans women as women. There is no evidence that the popularity of strawberry ice cream makes vanilla any less real and delicious. There is no evidence that legalizing gay marriage inherently devalued heterosexual marriages. Female-only spaces are great, and since trans women are female, let them in the same way you’d let in any other woman with literally any other identity characteristic. Unless you want white female only spaces, or straight female only spaces, or cis female only spaces, or Christian only female spaces, or smoking female only spaces... sounding exclusionary enough yet?

[Co-Chair Bagel23]

Soon transracial stuff is going to be defined as legit by our society, its only a matter of time.

[Figueira]

Do all you "BIOLOGICAL FACT" crusaders correct parents who refer to their adopted children as their children?

I'm still waiting for an answer to this question.

[Oakvale]

Everyone agrees that transgendered people should be treated respectfully and so on but it's quite literally not true that "trans women are women" and it doesn't make any sense to pretend it's so. Why is this a woke mantra?

Do all you "BIOLOGICAL FACT" crusaders correct parents who refer to their adopted children as their children?

I'm still waiting for an answer to this question.

?? There's a difference between adopted children and biological children and if the distinction's relevant it would be made.

[7,052,770]

Soon transracial stuff is going to be defined as legit by our society, its only a matter of time.

Sure, why not? "Race" is pseudoscientific nonsense.

[Co-Chair Bagel23]

Soon transracial stuff is going to be defined as legit by our society, its only a matter of time.

Sure, why not? "Race" is pseudoscientific nonsense.

What a time to be alive...

[Chunk Yogurt for President!]

Race actually is a social construct, but it is still ridiculous for Rachel Dolezal to identify as something she clearly isn't.  But at least what she identifies as exists, unlike genderqueer or two-spirit.

Gender, on the other hand is grounded in biology.  There is only one race and there are only two genders is something I like to say.

As for the studies, I've looked at a lot of them.  Some studies say one thing while other studies say something entirely different.

Also, adopted children aren't a separate category of people with different biological functions.

And that is irrelevant to the identity of trans people. You don't get to invalidate us because we use a word differently.

You don't get to force everyone to accept a new definition of a word.

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Notice that everyone agreed that black people were black and that they were born that way and couldn't change.  The debate about gender identity has no similarities with America's oldest problem.

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Of course not.  I don't deny that some people have gender dysphoria.  I just don't think that changing people's bodies and ignoring reality is the solution.

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If I'm supposed to take people's word on their gender, why can't you take me at my word when I saw I don't hate you?

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Wasn't it Oxford that added the meaning "figuratively" to the word "literally"just because people use it the wrong way.

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Rachel Dolezal.

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What evidence would you need?

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I've used at least four different avatars since joining in 2014.  Are you referring to Kentucky, South Carolina, Hawaii, or China as a regressive hellhole or a bubble?  And I certainly do not live in a bubble.  I have a degree from a liberal arts college.  Now, it was a nominally Christian college but it was the type of college where the religion department would agree with you on social issues.  In fact, I only remember the science professors opposing gender ideology.

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I'm not afraid of transgender people.  The only thing I'm afraid of is having a student that wants to be referred to as "zie/zir/zimself" and then helps get me fired if I don't actually call him or her that.

[world.execute(me)]

Race actually is a social construct, but it is still ridiculous for Rachel Dolezal to identify as something she clearly isn't.  But at least what she identifies as exists, unlike genderqueer or two-spirit.

The problem people had with Rachel Dolezal saying she was black was that she was lying about having faced the struggles that black people face when she was actually white bread from Montana. Or something along those lines. I haven't read anything about it in a while.

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i

You say with zero evidence. (there are zero races, race isn't real, its just BS invented by europeans hundreds of years ago so they could be evil for gawd).

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So you know that there are studies contradicting your opinion(I'd like to see how many of the ones "supporting" your assertions are complete BS or not saying what you think) and yet you feel the right to invalidate us with absolute certainty.

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But being a child is a """Biological fact""". You don't get to ignore fact because of your feelings.

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And that means you get to invalidate us as people why? (also Oxford). Your argument is that your personal definition of a word trumps respecting trans people.

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There was certainly a debate over whether black people were human beings, which, regardless of your "oh, I respect you but I won't even accept the core of your identity shtick, is a thing happening for trans* people too.

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"I don't deny that some people have depression. I just don't think that changing peoples brains with medication is the solution."

Your feelings about our bodies mean nothing. You have no idea what its like to be like this, you have no right to decide for us because of your narrowminded view of "reality".(we know that our body resembles our birth sex pre-hrt(afterwards its complicated).
 

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Because not hating me isn't a sacred part of your identity, and you're obviously being disingenuous all over the place(including here).

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I didn't know that "cuck" meant "You'd know damn well what I meant if you were arguing in good faith."

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Only as an "informal" meaning under the academic meaning.

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Plus people objectively use literally "wrong" all the time. It annoys me because the traditional definition of "literally" is useful and has no good synonyms, not because its magically incorrect because reasons.

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Race doesn't exist, and I've explained the problem people have with it in detail.

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It would have to be powerful enough to overcome how much better I feel on HRT. Yeah, I would bet my life that its not possible to genuinely prove (as opposed to some disingenuous pseudoproof) that trans people should be treated as who they really are (or "say they are" as you would put it).

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Thats pretty irrelevant to what I said. Don't dodge my questions. And I'm not going to be kept up at night by some anecdote based on multi-decade-old confirmation bias corrupted memory of a few physics professors or whatever whining about the assault on gender.

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Are you really being pedantic over the word "transphobia"? Disregarding this, if respecting a trivial request that obviously matters a lot to the student is something you're unwilling to even consider, then you shouldn't be a teacher.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Almost a million percent sure the study Carpetbagger has "researched" (i.e. cribbed from a Daily Signal article) is the Swedish study by Dhejne. A favourite amongst transphobes, who ignore the fact that the study doesn't remotely claimwhat they're reading into it, to the extent that Dhejne herself had to make a plea for transphobes to stop putting their own agenda above actual science.

Of course, if CB understood anything about science, he'd know that biologists have to redefine words all the time to fit the scientific world, which is especially necessary when you have a wooly language like English.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Everyone agrees that transgendered people should be treated respectfully and so on but it's quite literally not true that "trans women are women" and it doesn't make any sense to pretend it's so. Why is this a woke mantra?

Do all you "BIOLOGICAL FACT" crusaders correct parents who refer to their adopted children as their children?

I'm still waiting for an answer to this question.

?? There's a difference between adopted children and biological children and if the distinction's relevant it would be made.

Yeah, but somebody making it their mission to "correct" adopted families on their language because they aren't biological families would be seen as an arse, a courtesy not lent to transpeople.

[Skunk]

This is the worst active thread on Atlas.

[America Needs R'hllor]

While I'm generally very much aligned with the pro-trans movement, there are a number of issues in which some trans activists have gone to a very unhealthy extreme. The biggest one is the whole concept of "cotton ceiling" and the attempt to claim that genitalias are somehow detached from sex. The attempt to shame lesbians who don't want a penis in their bed is shameful, and the fact that we hear way more about lesbians than, say, about gays who don't want a vagina in their bed (equally legitimate) is also indicative of some sort of misogyny in this. Yes, modern science is very advanced but I don't believe that a sex change is yet complete and total and it's legitimate that homosexuals, bisexuals and lesbians will only be attracted to cis men\women. In fact, isn't that why pansexuality exists as a term?

It's also ridiculous to claim that homosexuality is the attraction to a gender- no, I'm not attracted to an identity (though I'd insist that my partners identify as men), I'm attracted to a sex, that is, male. In the same way, lesbians aren't attracted to a psychological identification as a woman, they're attracted to the female sex. And while there may be more than two genders, it's irrelevant to attraction because there are, definitely, only two sexes.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

I think the term cotton ceiling was initially supposed to meant post-ops so it's a bit less probelmatic than it is made out to be (I've never heard the phrase being used by an actual transperson fwiw). Nethertheless, it doesn't really concern me as a "big issue" - perfectly passing post-ops having fewer dates than they'd like is not really a problem that keeps me up at night.

[BenBurch]

People ought to be sorted on their actual gender, not the gender they think they are. 

[Co-Chair Bagel23]

People ought to be sorted on their actual gender, not the gender they think they are. 

[catographer]

People ought to be sorted on their actual gender, not the gender they think they are. 

There's no such thing as "the gender they think they are," only their actual gender. Trans people are their actual gender; the one assigned at birth is what society thinks they are.

[Wisconsin SC Race 2019]

Atlas Logic: If a man says he's a cat, and feels like a cat, and wants to be a cat...he's a cat. To say otherwise and to deny that fact is just plain bigotry.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

me, an idiot: posts scientific papers about transgenderism

atlas peanut gallery, noted intellectuals: "LE ATTACK HELICOPTER!1!" TRIGGERED LIBS?

[BenBurch]

People ought to be sorted on their actual gender, not the gender they think they are. 

There's no such thing as "the gender they think they are," only their actual gender. Trans people are their actual gender; the one assigned at birth is what society thinks they are.

I disagree.  If I "feel" that I am a fluffy unicorn, does that make me a unicorn?  Of course not.  I would be crazy to think I am, just like I would be crazy to think I am a woman if I am a man. 

[parochial boy]

People ought to be sorted on their actual gender, not the gender they think they are. 

There's no such thing as "the gender they think they are," only their actual gender. Trans people are their actual gender; the one assigned at birth is what society thinks they are.

I disagree.  If I "feel" that I am a fluffy unicorn, does that make me a unicorn?  Of course not.  I would be crazy to think I am, just like I would be crazy to think I am a woman if I am a man. 

Do you know what a strawman is?

[BenBurch]

People ought to be sorted on their actual gender, not the gender they think they are.  

There's no such thing as "the gender they think they are," only their actual gender. Trans people are their actual gender; the one assigned at birth is what society thinks they are.

I disagree.  If I "feel" that I am a fluffy unicorn, does that make me a unicorn?  Of course not.  I would be crazy to think I am, just like I would be crazy to think I am a woman if I am a man.  

Do you know what a strawman is?

I do, and I also know that you can't change your gender because you "feel" like you are a different gender than the one you were born as.

[BenBurch]

Okay, I wasn't trying to talk about transgender people (by which I mean ftm or mtf), which is a different topic for a different day, but it still falls within the gender binary.

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I don't deny that some people don't feel like they fit in with either gender.  That doesn't change the fact that man and woman are the only genders that are real.

why do u say that man and women are the only ones? sure they're the two main ones, but why can't there be things in the middle?

Because man and woman are based on biology while the other ones are based on feelings.  Many of these non-binary genders are also exclusive to certain cultures.  If they were real genders they would be universal.

1. they are not based on "feelings," they are based on psychology, which is real and biological (your brain is biology). they are also immutable, and your conception of yourself as a man or woman is psychological and real regardless of whether it matches your sex.
2. if you agree that non-binary genders exist in other cultures, why can't it exist in ours? if you respond that it doesn't currently exist, then why can't it exist in the future? culture changes, after all.

1: Man and woman are based on biology, not psychology, and the two genders have different anatomy.  The different anatomy is essential for the continuation of the human species.  The only social construct is the name we give for the two human genders.  Whether one says man and woman, homem and mulher, or 男 and 女，they refer to the same exact concept.  If someone doesn't act the way that the surrounding believes someone of their gender should behave, that doesn't mean they have a new gender.  If someone's brain tells them that they have some other gender, then they have a mental disorder and need to seek help immediately.  Lying to them to make them happy will not help.

2: The non-binary genders are fake in all cultures.  I was saying that if two-spirit was a real gender, then why does it only exist in a handful of cultures.  Truth is universal.  Male and female are universal.

Spot on.  You hit the nail on the head.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Okay, I wasn't trying to talk about transgender people (by which I mean ftm or mtf), which is a different topic for a different day, but it still falls within the gender binary.

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I don't deny that some people don't feel like they fit in with either gender.  That doesn't change the fact that man and woman are the only genders that are real.

why do u say that man and women are the only ones? sure they're the two main ones, but why can't there be things in the middle?

Because man and woman are based on biology while the other ones are based on feelings.  Many of these non-binary genders are also exclusive to certain cultures.  If they were real genders they would be universal.

1. they are not based on "feelings," they are based on psychology, which is real and biological (your brain is biology). they are also immutable, and your conception of yourself as a man or woman is psychological and real regardless of whether it matches your sex.
2. if you agree that non-binary genders exist in other cultures, why can't it exist in ours? if you respond that it doesn't currently exist, then why can't it exist in the future? culture changes, after all.

1: Man and woman are based on biology, not psychology, and the two genders have different anatomy.  The different anatomy is essential for the continuation of the human species.  The only social construct is the name we give for the two human genders.  Whether one says man and woman, homem and mulher, or 男 and 女，they refer to the same exact concept.  If someone doesn't act the way that the surrounding believes someone of their gender should behave, that doesn't mean they have a new gender.  If someone's brain tells them that they have some other gender, then they have a mental disorder and need to seek help immediately.  Lying to them to make them happy will not help.

2: The non-binary genders are fake in all cultures.  I was saying that if two-spirit was a real gender, then why does it only exist in a handful of cultures.  Truth is universal.  Male and female are universal.

Spot on.  You hit the nail on the head.

But he's not right. The only reason agree with his unsubstantiated opinions is your preconceived notions, not the scientific evidence, which does in fact show that there is a neurological component to transgenderism and that there can be discrepancies between the brain's self-actualisation and the sex due to the manner in which embryos develop. He is also incorrect in his implication that transition is not a useful treatment for GD. Indeed it is very rare for any mental illness to have a reliable a cure as transition is for GD (especially if puberty is repressed) and the studies that flag problems mainly point to the likes of Carpetbagger refusing to accept a social transition.