February 2018 Vice Presidential Cage Fight! (Debate)
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  February 2018 Vice Presidential Cage Fight! (Debate)
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Author Topic: February 2018 Vice Presidential Cage Fight! (Debate)  (Read 826 times)
At-Large Senator LouisvilleThunder
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« on: February 09, 2018, 01:54:46 AM »
« edited: February 10, 2018, 08:38:55 AM by Senator LouisvilleThunder »

Welcome Ladies and Losers to the 2018 Vice Presidential cage brawl hosted at the Thunderstruck Casino in Flawless Beautiful Las Vegas, NV, Fremont! I, Louis V. Thunder, will serve as the referee of this good ol' cage fight. We will get to watch three ferocious Machiavellian men fight it out in the spectacle of the century. Our defending champion is none other than Maulin' Marco (PiT)! Our challengers for the Veep title are the Former President "Big Don" Growlin' Griff and Former Lincoln Governor Muscle Mike Moore (Wells)! We will have rounds featuring everything ranging from game reform/activity to foreign policy to the economy. I hope we have a good clean entertaining fight and let the games begin!


Please throw your opening punches! (Present your opening statements.)

Reserve your commentary for this thread.
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Adam Griffin
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« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2018, 05:10:56 AM »

I'm grateful for the opportunity to have this forum; it hasn't always been something available to Vice Presidential candidates in the past.

I'll cut to the chase: I'm running because I believe that after almost 2 years of unilateral executive control by one faction and one party, a majority of people would like to see a change in this game. It may or may not be exactly what my ticket or the ticket of Pericles and Wells is offering, but choices in elections are never perfect.

My goal, if elected, is to be a competent administrator representing a broader administration of change in Atlasia. For those who may not know me, I've done about everything there is to do in this game over the years. My presence on this ticket isn't to enhance my ego, cement a legacy or otherwise advance a career.

I realize there are some (including some who don't know me) for whom various aspects of my highly-successful past career are sticking points. Allow me to reassure those individuals: I'm not here to build a party or ideology, influence the game to my benefit or otherwise revive my past endeavors. I'm here to give people a choice and to be an effective, competent administrator in the role of Vice President. I will perform those roles and provide advice when asked.

Several years ago, I offered the game a great, new vision that all of Atlasia enjoys today. Three years ago, we built a coalition and pushed forward. Two years ago, I staked both of my terms as President on guaranteeing passage of a new game that would be healthier and more vibrant than its past incarnation. We succeeded - because of a great many people who helped build the effort, but also because I'm good at what I do.

I'm applying for the job once again: allow me to be an effective administrator in the role as Vice President, and you will see why so many people from across the political spectrum complement me on my effectiveness (even if they're cussing me simultaneously under their breath).

I believe the ticket of Spiral and myself offers not only a change in how Atlasia can operate, but also brings to the table a breadth of experience that surpasses even the current administration in the aggregate.

This combination of change and experience is a powerful force, and it belongs in the hands of the Atlasian people - all they need do is choose it.
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2018, 03:23:16 PM »

     While ideology matters more than nothing in that we have occasional opportunities to break ties, the office of Vice President is at its heart an administrative position. This is a demanding task that requires coordinating the work of Congress and keeping things moving. Some days are slower than others, but I make it my business to always watch the Congress floor and react to things that happen as they occur.

     Contrary to what it was in the distant past, the role of Vice President is not a small or irrelevant one today. When I was PPT, I dealt with Vice Presidential inactivity and the setbacks it represented for the important work of Congress. I chose to run with President fhtagn because I wanted to apply my specific experience of managing Congressional business to a role where that experience would prove invaluable and where my natural strengths would be best put to use.

     I have proven myself to be an active and engaged Vice President over the past several months, bumping threads, directing the flow of debate as needed, addressing amendments and motions, and recruiting sponsors for bills. It is a hard role, and one that requires dedication and persistence to keep things moving. Many people see a ministerial position and assume that it must be easy drudge work, but this position requires the management of all the members of the Legislative branch of our government, and such a task is neither easy nor simple even in the best of times. Recently more than ever I have been fighting an uphill battle to keep our lawmakers working with a variety of events and quirks of timing coming together to make bills move particularly slowly.

     Both of my opponents in this debate are fine men and if I could make the point effectively without reference to their records I gladly would, but frankly they both have question marks on their records with periods of inactivity within the context of Atlasia. I have been busy with the business of government in this timeframe, and when the strength of the Vice President is a major factor in preventing Congress from collapsing we cannot afford to punctuate our future with a question mark.
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Wells
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« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2018, 05:58:12 PM »

I’d first like to take some time to thank Louisville Thunder, Las Vegas, and the Thunderstruck Casino for graciously hosting this debate and putting some exciting spin on it. I think it’s great that this debate is happening, so props to you. I’d also like to thank the Atlasian people for giving this campaign a huge amount of support so far. And of course, I would like to thank my running mate Pericles for the amazing campaign we’ve run so far.

I believe that my ticket is the most promising ticket for the future of Atlasia. We have strived to turn this election into a serious debate about the issues - from activity in Atlasia to game reform, our noninterventionist foreign policy to free college education, programs aimed at expanding and supporting the middle class and most recently a plan to raise the minimum wage. We provide a firm ideology and consistency within our ticket.

A few months ago, after a year of being in office, I took a break from Atlasia. But little more than a month later, I wandered back in and decided to ease my way back in. Of course, upon getting caught up again, I realized that the Lincoln Assembly hadn't yet produced a budget. In IRC chat there happened to be two members of the Assembly, so I immediately notified them of this and got the Assembly to now make a successful budget. In this instance, like so many others, is one where I saw an issue and immediately strived to fix it.

Now I realize that the office of Vice President has changed since a year ago. I believe that I am more than capable of taking the position. I have always been a staunch supporter of activity in every office I have been a part of. While I was Lincoln governor, I was always the most vocal in getting the Assembly to be active - and they needed the encouragement more often than not. The same was true when I was the Speaker of the Assembly.

Pericles and I have hope in the future of Atlasia and we will work hard to make sure that the Atlasia we envision is the Atlasia that we experience. I believe that we can give Atlasia a bright future - if Atlasia gives us the chance.
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At-Large Senator LouisvilleThunder
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« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2018, 07:22:28 AM »
« Edited: February 10, 2018, 07:25:59 AM by Senator LouisvilleThunder »

Thank you Adam, PiT, and Wells for your opening statements. My first question is what is your vision to reform the game and specifically the role of VP in order to boost the all important thing called activity and make the game more exciting to play? You may also explain why reforms are not necessary.
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2018, 05:27:41 PM »

     In my time as President Pro Tempore and as Vice President, I have had the chance to see what can go wrong with Congress. I have a couple of ideas for how to improve Congress's function that I have discussed with President fhtagn and am looking to unveil in the future. I will be sticking to Congress here because, while activity is a universal concern, this role's work deals with the Legislative branch.

     One issue I have encountered is that bills that pass one house and go on to the other need a sponsor, but sometimes it will take days to find one and it is conceivable that no sponsor would ever emerge. I used to entertain the idea that a bill should continue without a sponsor, but after Speaker North Carolina Yankee articulated to me the shortcomings of this proposal I have concluded that under such situations the VP should be allowed to sponsor the bill once a set period of time elapses without a Senator or Representative rises to do so. This helps ensure that the work of Congress moves along at a brisk pace and does not get bogged down over silence in empty threads.

     What's more, sometimes bills are sponsored by Senators and Representatives who proceed to lapse into inactivity. While this has been dealt with informally for some time, we should formalize this process to reduce lag that kills the momentum of bills. I propose a reform whereby if an amendment is proposed and the sponsor does not respond in a set timeframe, the chamber simply proceeds to a vote on the amendment.

     Congress does fundamentally good work and can move quite quickly when our ducks are in a row. It is true that there are some weak points in the process where bills can get bogged down, but I believe that the reforms to fix these bottlenecks can be undertaken easily within the context of the current system.
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Adam Griffin
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« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2018, 05:15:10 AM »

With regard to my ideas for game reform, I cannot say that I have too many: all of the major ones I championed (save for one; mentioned below) became the law of the land during my Presidency and the Constitutional Convention, and manifest in the game every Atlasian citizen enjoys today.

Of course, the broader concept of "game reform" is an issue that is frequently addressed by people from all walks of life, and - more often than not - relates to the amount of time spent in the game. One generally becomes more skeptical of the topic of "reform" the longer they've been here because they've been around long enough to see various "reforms" wreak havoc on the game. I certainly was an anomaly in this regard, as my advocacy for (sensible) reform only grew with age.

However, the reset has largely addressed the primary issues it was intended to address: the prevalence of too many offices and the lack of general activity. These two problems have been - in my opinion - the only metrics by which reform is generally always justified; otherwise, it tends to be quite subjective. While we do still have issues when drilling past the surface level on this front, I have to say that by and large, the structure of the game seems sound and considerably active. I certainly have qualms with the landscape of the game present-day in terms of how it's played, but not with its foundations.



One of the reasons why I decided to jump back into the arena and run for Vice President was due to the reforms to the office that have recently occurred.

For years, I opposed the existence of the Vice Presidency and advocated for its abolition, up until I lost that one battle during the Constitutional Convention of 2015-2016. My opposition to the position was rooted in the fact that the Vice President had no responsibilities whatsoever, and basically only existed to 1) break ties in the Senate and 2) serve as political candy to convince people to vote for tickets they might not otherwise support.

At least now, we've given the VP position some raison d'etre. While it is managerial and administrative in nature (and therefore not very glamorous), it was certainly a step in the right direction.  If memory serves, after losing the battle to abolish the position during the ConCon, I then advocated for giving the VP an enhanced role in one of the two chambers, including the right to vote under all circumstances. I'm glad to see that some progress has been made on that front, if albeit later than desired.

As many older players might remember, I have never been a fan of the real-life decorum that plagued the doings of our legislative branch, and the current VP makes a good point about being able to actively intervene in cases where (in my view) arcane procedure can result in even a relatively simple bill taking ages to push its sludge through both chambers. Admittedly, a huge part of the reason why I could never keep focused on legislation as a party leader was because of the sheer time it took to go anywhere, so I'm generally in favor of anything that expedites the process when it does not impact the quality of the legislation itself. Those would be my two underlying metrics in measuring the value of any reforms to the office.
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Wells
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« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2018, 03:39:33 PM »

Activity, and more importantly the problem of inactivity, is one facet of Atlasia’s politics that has existed as long as I've been here. Everyone can agree that Atlasia needs to be more active, and most people try to find solutions to the problem. However, one thing I've learned from my time in office is that you can PM people about votes, encourage debate, and publicly shame people as much as you want, and sometimes they will still be inactive. I'm not at all saying doing all those things and more are bad ideas - Presidential and Vice Presidential leadership can absolutely make a difference. They do work most of the time, but when they don't work it can create a problem. There's no magic wand that I can wave to make people active. The best that we can do is to mitigate the problems that stem from inactivity, through rule changes or getting a more active player to pick things up, and recalling the officeholders.

The other part of the question, making the game more exciting, is something that I really care about. Increasing activity is one way to make the game more exciting, but making the game more exciting will also increase activity. It's a two way street, and I believe the latter has the strongest causation. My creation of a table tabloid-style/satire newspaper were efforts to create interesting aspects of the game, and did generate some discussion. It follows that I believe the GM department has a role to play in increasing this game's levels of excitement. It has been said that real life policies are reactive while Atlasia's policies are proactive. I think that the proactive nature of Atlasia's policies can lead to difficulties in activity. With a GM department that creates more stories and is more informative in general, Atlasia's politicians can work to solve problems with a greater sense of urgency, increasing excitement and pushing somewhat active legislators to higher levels.

That is just one example of the ideas that our ticket envisions i order to change Atlasia for the better. Our ticket is a ticket of reform. We have thrown support behind some proposed game reforms, and we plan to make sure that they are enacted when we are in office.
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At-Large Senator LouisvilleThunder
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« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2018, 04:56:28 PM »

Thanks for your responses. My next question is what is your view of Atlasia's role in foreign affairs? What is your foreign policy vision? What position should Atlasia take on the Korean Civil War?
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2018, 01:19:22 AM »

     In our administration the President handles this matter, but I am a trusted advisor of hers so I can easily speak to our foreign policy.

     Our view is that the proper role of Atlasia in foreign affairs is a limited one, following from a non-interventionist doctrine. We generally stay out of affairs that do not threaten us directly, such as such as the conflict between Spain and Catalonia, the Crimean crisis, and the North Korean Civil War. Some of the worst mistakes of past administrations have been the result of interventions abroad. Our vision for strong and stable leadership represents a rejection of aggressive foreign policies that do not serve our people's interests.

     This attitude should not however be confused with an isolationist one. We have also taken measures to improve our reputation in the international community, including working on new trade deals such as the Mozambique Free Trade agreement and opening embassies in Bhutan, Cape Verde, the Maldives, Montenegro, and Grenada.

     We do work with quite a few countries, and we have been working to hold our allies responsible for their actions when they do not align with the values of the Republic of Atlasia. When it came to our attention that they were executing thousands of LGBT individuals, we cut all forms of aid to Saudi Arabia and froze their assets. Such barbarous conduct cannot be tolerated from any nation that we would do business with and must be condemned in the strongest possible terms.

     To conclude and tie this all together, fhtagn and I share the foreign policy vision that Atlasia should not function as the "cops of the world", enforcing our will militarily, but that we can be a force for good in the world acting within a reasonable set of limitations.
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Wells
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« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2018, 03:52:42 PM »
« Edited: February 12, 2018, 04:33:12 PM by All is Wells »

Pericles and I have been very critical of Atlasian involvement in foreign wars. As president, Pericles will tak a strictly non-interventionist approach to foreign policy. Our platform's view is that nation building at home is better than nation building abroad. We want substantial cuts to military spending (which would also help combat the deficit) because of this. However, we simply have a dovish foreign policy and are not opposed in being active on the global stage without using our military, through maintaining humanitarian aid and the like. For these reasons, we are currently poised to take the endorsement of the Peace Party, with 80% of the vote right now.

On the Korean War, Pericles has proposed setting up a special prosecutor to look into the circumstances surrounding the start of the war, which has proved to be controversial. I believe that this is not a bad idea, since it will be Independent from politics and just plainly look at the facts of the case before making a decision. A similar plan has been endorsed by the current Attorney General Oakvale. We don't plan on getting involved in the Korean War any further abroad.
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Adam Griffin
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« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2018, 12:18:00 AM »

I think most people who know me know that I am a staunch non-interventionist, and have always taken this position. Arguably, at least one of my two presidential victories was made possible because I won sufficient isolationist conservative support due to my non-interventionist and generally libertarian policies on foreign affairs.

Personally and in this context, however, I do believe that the opinions of the Vice President on matters of foreign policy - within the confines of what the administration if elected will do - are a bit irrelevant. This is why I'm late to answering, actually: I do not want to speak for my running mate as to what specific policies he may or may not embrace if elected. However, if the situation were to arise that I found myself in the Oval Office once again, the public can expect a non-interventionist stance from me in all but the most egregious of circumstances. We had no major wars or conflicts during my tenure as President, and I would expect the same to occur if I found myself in the position again.

Any involvement in the Korean war was and is - obviously - very shortsighted, should not be encouraged further and any existing engagement should be ended as soon as possible. When I questioned the libertarian bonafides of the past two administrations on the matter of foreign policy during their tenures/elections, I was largely mocked and ridiculed. Yet here we are. As to my personal opinion, let Korea be Korea: it's not our job to be meddling there or anywhere else.
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At-Large Senator LouisvilleThunder
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« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2018, 07:46:29 AM »
« Edited: February 13, 2018, 07:56:14 AM by Senator LouisvilleThunder »

Thank you all for your responses.

What are your plans regarding the economy? How should we go about lowering unemployment? Is the deficit important enough of an issue to solve? If so, will you advise your administration to raise taxes or cut spending or a combination of both? What is your stance on free trade?
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« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2018, 01:46:09 AM »

     I firmly believe that the dignity of gainful employment is fundamental to making the economy work for the citizenry. This means that we need to focus on growing the economy so that there is more pie to go around while also tackling the ongoing problem of unemployment. When unemployment is high, bargaining power shifts to the employer and wages suffer. When unemployment is low, that bargaining power shifts back to the employee. This is an important outcome that we can realize in the context of the market economy.

     Unemployment is an important issue to tackle. We can propose a jobs bill and that has happened in the past, but more to the point unemployment in Atlasia is a function of activity. This economic concern makes the point of activity all the more crucial, and this is the only ticket proven to be active and competent. My relentless pushing of the Congress to do its work leaves me uniquely situated to improve this country's unemployment numbers.

     We consider the deficit to be an important issue to tackle, as running up a deficit amounts to a mortgage against the well-being of future generations. I believe in fiscal responsibility as a bedrock principle. My preference is to not unduly increase the tax burden of Atlasian citizens, but some programs are important and paying for them is of utmost importance. I join President fhtagn in supporting the House's PayGo resolution, working to ensure that appropriations passing the House are properly paid for.

     Free trade is an important tool for economic growth in Atlasia and one that our administration has pushed to expand, with the unilateral free trade deal with China and another free trade agreement with Mozambique. It encourages specialization of the economy, increasing wealth for both our citizens and the impoverished peoples of the third world. There have been rumblings about free trade leading to the loss of Atlasian jobs, but the ill of outsourcing owes much more to the spread of shareholder theories of value. This is a destructive managerial theory that is by no means part and parcel with free trade, and to understand it as such does a disservice to free trade as a concept.
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« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2018, 07:17:12 PM »

Economic issues are central to the campaign we've run so far. I'm proud of the many policies this campaign has pushed forward. Attacking unemployment, which is currently at 7%, has always been a major part of our campaign. Therefore, Pericles has proposed an immense infrastructure bill aimed at increasing employment massively. This also leads us to the deficit issue, and angle which has been used to criticize some of Pericles's economic policies such as that one. But we plan on being fiscally responsible with our policies, financing them with reasonable tax increases on the highest earners and reducing the budget in other areas, such as with military spending. The deficit can certainly be reduced while at the same time increasing spending in some areas.

In general economic policy, Pericles supports more job training and a $14 minimum wage by 2020. Another policy supported by Pericles is the model employer executive order, which Pericles plans on signing during his presidency. The basic idea of this is that the federal government will show preference in federal contracts to businesses which pay their workers more and only give contracts to businesses which affirm the right to unionize. Additionally, while being contracted, the union will be in a no-strike pledge. This provides incentives for businesses to do those things. I wholeheartedly support this policy as a means to benefit every worker in Atlasia.

Pericles himself believes that free trade is good for the economy, but he also believes it needs to be done the right way in order for it to be a truly great thing. We are deeply opposed to outsourcing however, and we absolutely want to re-examine and renegotiate some of the trade deals that have been made in order to better protect the manufacturing jobs in Atlasia. I must admit that I am a touch more protectionist in my leanings, but working together Pericles and I will be able to accomplish some good things with that diversity combined with an ideological cohesiveness that is greater than any of the other tickets available. A Pericles presidency would be a time of greater prosperity and true economic reform that benefits every Atlasian.
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Adam Griffin
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« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2018, 05:17:30 AM »

With regard to unemployment, I obviously favor a heavy-handed and targeted approach to the matter. Ultimately, we all have to realize that figures projected in-game are handled by the person(s) managing the game engine, and can - depending on the circumstances - be quite subjective.

I say this as somebody who has served as GM not once but twice. I also want to be perfectly clear that I am not accusing any present officials of subverting policy for their own ideological preferences. I'm merely mentioning this to underline the fact that actual people are responsible for determining what's going on in the nation economically, and their interpretation of policies can be different from person to person. I have seen the effects this can have in the past.

With that being said, we would ask for a comprehensive analysis of where the unemployment is disproprotionately present. This doesn't just mean by region or state, but by previous profession, educational level, household income and other factors. Then, we tailor an investment package that'll put these individuals back to work and pay for job training simultaneously (if need be) to return them to the workforce permanently.



In my opinion, no, deficits are not a major concern in and of themselves. As long as the nation's long-term ability to repay is not in jeopardy and our debt as a share of GDP is manageable, we can afford to spend and collect as we see fit.



Being integral to not one but two budgets as Game Moderator, I understand the fundamentals of the federal budget. However, I am sure that the line items have changed considerably since then (and admittedly, the budget passed near the end of my Presidency did not have any substantial input from myself due to the reset occurring at the same time). Because of this, I will need to analyze the structure of the current budget to render an appropriate verdict as to whether I would increase or reduce spending (in net terms).

However, I am willing to wager that after two years of right-of-center dominance in the federal government, our historical levels of spending are far below where they once were (if not, what have conservatives been voting for?). I'm a firm believer that the amount we spent during the years of Labor dominance were in line with what we needed as a country and what was sufficient to run a government and country of our size.



I am cut from the cloth of Old Labor values, which means that I do not define myself as a proponent of free trade like many others. I am not of the persuasion that free trade is wrong in absolutes and certainly support specific examples of it, but my default position without any specifics provided on this topic is one of fair trade.
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At-Large Senator LouisvilleThunder
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« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2018, 07:39:53 AM »

Thank you all for your responses.

Please present your closing statements and make rebuttals to your opponents' points that you find most objectionable.
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« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2018, 11:06:35 PM »

Once again Louisville Thunder deserves commendation for such a well run debate. It has been good to hear the various ideas and policies offered by all the tickets in this debate. As we conclude, I would like to reiterate the main point of our policy, that we want an Atlasian government that works for everybody. We plan on doing this through political reforms, as has been stated many times in this campaign. 

The truth is that the current system is not working for Atlasians, and most of them find themselves of the opinion that Atlasia is moving in the wrong direction. We need a system that does work for the people and will move us in the right direction. With our presidency, you will find a commitment to effective reforms - from less sweeping ones such as a neutral Supreme Court to game changing proposals like Lumine's Sulla Plan. Pericles and I are the best people to vote for if you think Atlasia needs reforms - we have real ideas to better Atlasia. 

This brings us to economic and social reforms. Pericles and I have been outspoken in support of policies that would directly benefit low-income Atlasians. Policies such as a higher minimum wage and free college education have been proposed by this ticket. Unemployment is the largest part of our economic platform, where we propose more infrastructure jobs in order to significantly reduce current 7% unemployment. The current administration has not done nearly enough to tackle this issue, which is why unemployment has changed minimally during the past few months. Meanwhile, our policies will really change the numbers of the employed. 

Every piece of our platform is based on our faith in an Atlasian government that works to help its citizens. Our supported political reforms solve the current problems that make the current government so distant from Atlasians. Our economic reforms provide aid to all who need it. We truly will have a government that works for Atlasians under a Pericles presidency. The polls open very soon, so remember to vote!
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« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2018, 01:24:03 AM »

     I would also like to thanks LouisvilleThunder for making this debate an enjoyable experience and one that allowed the candidates to effectively showcase our views here.

     When it comes down to it, I boast a proven track record of activity as Vice President, which my opponents do not. They may come to you with high-flying ideas of reforms, but I should remind everyone that we are already operating in the aftermath of a major game reform to promote activity: the Reboot and Consolidation. In Atlasia, the people matter as much or more than the system. If you put inactive people in government, no reform will then produce an active game.

     Wells boasts about how his ticket supports policies to benefit low-income Atlasians. However, if we look at one of these policies (free college) that is currently in a bill before the Senate, Pericles proposes a risk fee on large banks, an unusual measure. When it is pointed out that it is not likely that banks will accept this new tax so easily, his only rationale is that they have "plenty if [sic] money". His postings here indicate that he is in way over his head with little understanding of policy and the effects that these proposals have, and the Atlasian people benefit little from such a champion.

     When we come to the other ticket, Spiral's track record as PPT is atrocious. When the noticeboard was opened, it took him a week to make the PPT's post despite receiving PMs from both Yankee and myself, and he has never updated that post in the month since then. He has not posted in the Senate since February 6th, when he opened a final vote that he should have closed some time ago. Most of his posts since then have been in the debate. Griffin talks about his goal of being "a competent administrator", but why then did he choose to play second fiddle to a blatantly incompetent administrator?

     Frankly, the alternatives to the fhtagn/PiT ticket either have a tenuous grasp on reality or are just extremely inactive. If you want to close your eyes really hard and believe that things will improve if you just pass the right bill, vote for them. If you do not want Congress to implode, vote for us. Thank you all and good night.
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