America is becoming MORE homophobic (new polls)

[Brittain33]

This is basically entirely a result of the new prominence of the transgender movement.

Your evidence for this is...?

My view, which accords with others above and is based on 20+ years as an out gay man, is that the people on the margins (the 70th percentile of gay acceptance) don't really know gays or were still uncomfortable  with them and went along with the prevailing winds, and now that Trump is President, feel it's ok to be publicly uncomfortable again. But like you, I can't prove that.

[Famous Mortimer]

True, I have no evidence. Or if I do, it's only anecdotal.

I know a lot of my friends, apolitical or even left-wing people, have shifted from being full on pro-gay liberation back to a sort of moderate liberal from the 90s position, like "I'm glad they have equal rights but it's kind of creepy that my facebook feed is full of transgender children, do they have to push this stuff so actively?"  Of course, this is the minority position I've encountered but it's a significant and growing one. I suspect even more people would back it in an anonymous survey. No proof, just a guess.

[Old Man Willow]

This is basically entirely a result of the new prominence of the transgender movement.

A lot of people came around to acceptance of gays because they were convinced by arguments that "gays just want the same rights as you, there's no slippery slope"

but now we see that it's a mainstream liberal position that children should be given sex change hormones and puberty blockers.

There obviously was a slippery slope and people feel like they were tricked into supporting gays under false pretenses.

No one needs their support, especially when it's from people of such low moral character. They just need to mind their own damn business. Worry about their own lives.

[Cold War Liberal]

but now we see that it's a mainstream liberal position that children should be given sex change hormones and puberty blockers.

You don't seem to know very much about mainstream liberalism. I live in one of the most liberal states in the country and I've never heard anyone ever argue, in real life or online, in favor of forcing children to have sex changes.

Honest question: are you actually a Democrat, and if so, why? I've seen your posts about immigration, race, and now trans people; your views seem to be much more aligned with Trumpism and the GOP...

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

but now we see that it's a mainstream liberal position that children should be given sex change hormones and puberty blockers.

You don't seem to know very much about mainstream liberalism. I live in one of the most liberal states in the country and I've never heard anyone ever argue, in real life or online, in favor of forcing children to have sex changes.

Honest question: are you actually a Democrat, and if so, why? I've seen your posts about immigration, race, and now trans people; your views seem to be much more aligned with Trumpism and the GOP...

Where does he say anything about forcing? Activist Democrats frequently argue that these options should be available to children upon request. Skepticism is intolerance.

[Cold War Liberal]

but now we see that it's a mainstream liberal position that children should be given sex change hormones and puberty blockers.

You don't seem to know very much about mainstream liberalism. I live in one of the most liberal states in the country and I've never heard anyone ever argue, in real life or online, in favor of forcing children to have sex changes.

Honest question: are you actually a Democrat, and if so, why? I've seen your posts about immigration, race, and now trans people; your views seem to be much more aligned with Trumpism and the GOP...

Where does he say anything about forcing? Activist Democrats frequently argue that these options should be available to children upon request. Skepticism is intolerance.

He said:

but now we see that it's a mainstream liberal position that children should be given sex change hormones and puberty blockers.

"Children should be given sex change hormones" sounds more like "children should be administered sex change hormones" than "children should be given access to sex change hormones upon request," at least to me.

[Helsinkian]

but now we see that it's a mainstream liberal position that children should be given sex change hormones and puberty blockers.

"Children should be given sex change hormones" sounds more like "children should be administered sex change hormones" than "children should be given access to sex change hormones upon request," at least to me.

Do you really think a 10 year old child can make an informed decision on something like that? A decision they may come to regret when they grow up?

[Cold War Liberal]

but now we see that it's a mainstream liberal position that children should be given sex change hormones and puberty blockers.

"Children should be given sex change hormones" sounds more like "children should be administered sex change hormones" than "children should be given access to sex change hormones upon request," at least to me.

Do you really think a 10 year old child can make an informed decision on something like that? A decision they may come to regret when they grow up?

Please point to where I said that I think that.

I really have no solid, strong opinion on childhood sex changes one way or the other. I can see some arguments from both sides as valid, and some as potentially problematic.

[junior chįmp]

Good thing Queer Eye for the Straight Guy is coming back

[Since I'm the mad scientist proclaimed by myself]

True, I have no evidence. Or if I do, it's only anecdotal.

I know a lot of my friends, apolitical or even left-wing people, have shifted from being full on pro-gay liberation back to a sort of moderate liberal from the 90s position, like "I'm glad they have equal rights but it's kind of creepy that my facebook feed is full of transgender children, do they have to push this stuff so actively?"  Of course, this is the minority position I've encountered but it's a significant and growing one. I suspect even more people would back it in an anonymous survey. No proof, just a guess.

The kinds of people who shift away from gay rights that easily were never allies in the first place. Do you have a problem with me being allowed to exist? Because that's what your complaining about.

[Cold War Liberal]

True, I have no evidence. Or if I do, it's only anecdotal.

I know a lot of my friends, apolitical or even left-wing people, have shifted from being full on pro-gay liberation back to a sort of moderate liberal from the 90s position, like "I'm glad they have equal rights but it's kind of creepy that my facebook feed is full of transgender children, do they have to push this stuff so actively?"  Of course, this is the minority position I've encountered but it's a significant and growing one. I suspect even more people would back it in an anonymous survey. No proof, just a guess.

The kinds of people who shift away from gay rights that easily were never allies in the first place. Do you have a problem with me being allowed to exist? Because that's what your complaining about.

[Horus]

True, I have no evidence. Or if I do, it's only anecdotal.

I know a lot of my friends, apolitical or even left-wing people, have shifted from being full on pro-gay liberation back to a sort of moderate liberal from the 90s position, like "I'm glad they have equal rights but it's kind of creepy that my facebook feed is full of transgender children, do they have to push this stuff so actively?"  Of course, this is the minority position I've encountered but it's a significant and growing one. I suspect even more people would back it in an anonymous survey. No proof, just a guess.

Well, your friends are pretty dumb for associating trans issues with general gay issues. I can certainly understand getting creeped out by trans kids, but how would that roll over to having negative views of your average gay man?

[Chunk Yogurt for President!]

True, I have no evidence. Or if I do, it's only anecdotal.

I know a lot of my friends, apolitical or even left-wing people, have shifted from being full on pro-gay liberation back to a sort of moderate liberal from the 90s position, like "I'm glad they have equal rights but it's kind of creepy that my facebook feed is full of transgender children, do they have to push this stuff so actively?"  Of course, this is the minority position I've encountered but it's a significant and growing one. I suspect even more people would back it in an anonymous survey. No proof, just a guess.

The kinds of people who shift away from gay rights that easily were never allies in the first place. Do you have a problem with me being allowed to exist? Because that's what your complaining about.

No one believes that trans people don't exist.

[Hydera]

True, I have no evidence. Or if I do, it's only anecdotal.

I know a lot of my friends, apolitical or even left-wing people, have shifted from being full on pro-gay liberation back to a sort of moderate liberal from the 90s position, like "I'm glad they have equal rights but it's kind of creepy that my facebook feed is full of transgender children, do they have to push this stuff so actively?"  Of course, this is the minority position I've encountered but it's a significant and growing one. I suspect even more people would back it in an anonymous survey. No proof, just a guess.

Well, your friends are pretty dumb for associating trans issues with general gay issues. I can certainly understand getting creeped out by trans kids, but how would that roll over to having negative views of your average gay man?

People in the 00's were creeped out by parents allowing their gay kids be gay. It was a scandal in Fox News a lot of times. Since homophobes targeted transgender people after losing the battle to shame gay people into being straight. Transgender people are just getting the full blunt of the same negative prejudices that gays had. ex: being called faking for attention, creeping on kids(soc-cons used this for decades, being a threat to non-transgender people as gay people were considered potential rapists of men or women if lesbian).

[Famous Mortimer]

but now we see that it's a mainstream liberal position that children should be given sex change hormones and puberty blockers.

You don't seem to know very much about mainstream liberalism. I live in one of the most liberal states in the country and I've never heard anyone ever argue, in real life or online, in favor of forcing children to have sex changes.

Honest question: are you actually a Democrat, and if so, why? I've seen your posts about immigration, race, and now trans people; your views seem to be much more aligned with Trumpism and the GOP...

Where does he say anything about forcing? Activist Democrats frequently argue that these options should be available to children upon request. Skepticism is intolerance.

He said:

but now we see that it's a mainstream liberal position that children should be given sex change hormones and puberty blockers.

"Children should be given sex change hormones" sounds more like "children should be administered sex change hormones" than "children should be given access to sex change hormones upon request," at least to me.

I don't know why liberals on this board engage in bad faith interpretations so often. It doesn't make your argument look stronger, it make you look stupid.

[Bojack Horseman]

People came around on gay marriage because it was an abstract issue that only affected other people. Many of those who support gay marriage would go apesh**t if their kid came out. It just goes to show you that “tolerance” means you’re okay with gays, blacks, Muslims, etc. as long as they don’t move next door.

[Famous Mortimer]

People came around on gay marriage because it was an abstract issue that only affected other people. Many of those who support gay marriage would go apesh**t if their kid came out. It just goes to show you that “tolerance” means you’re okay with gays, blacks, Muslims, etc. as long as they don’t move next door.

This is true. Exposure to other types of people tends to make people less tolerant. You're going against liberal orthodoxy by admitting this.

[Cold War Liberal]

I don't know why liberals on this board engage in bad faith interpretations so often. It doesn't make your argument look stronger, it make you look stupid.

Perhaps because your statement left room for interpretation, and in making that interpretation I applied Occam's Razor?

People came around on gay marriage because it was an abstract issue that only affected other people. Many of those who support gay marriage would go apesh**t if their kid came out. It just goes to show you that “tolerance” means you’re okay with gays, blacks, Muslims, etc. as long as they don’t move next door.

This is true. Exposure to other types of people tends to make people less tolerant. You're going against liberal orthodoxy by admitting this.

You're also going against science.

but now we see that it's a mainstream liberal position that children should be given sex change hormones and puberty blockers.

There obviously was a slippery slope and people feel like they were tricked into supporting gays under false pretenses.

I don't know why liberals on this board engage in bad faith interpretations so often. It doesn't make your argument look stronger, it make you look stupid.

This is true. Exposure to other types of people tends to make people less tolerant. You're going against liberal orthodoxy by admitting this.

Why does an ostensible Democrat from New York(!) dislike liberals so much? Honest question, one which I asked before and which you ignored.

[Hydera]

I don't know why liberals on this board engage in bad faith interpretations so often. It doesn't make your argument look stronger, it make you look stupid.

Perhaps because your statement left room for interpretation, and in making that interpretation I applied Occam's Razor?

People came around on gay marriage because it was an abstract issue that only affected other people. Many of those who support gay marriage would go apesh**t if their kid came out. It just goes to show you that “tolerance” means you’re okay with gays, blacks, Muslims, etc. as long as they don’t move next door.

This is true. Exposure to other types of people tends to make people less tolerant. You're going against liberal orthodoxy by admitting this.

You're also going against science.

but now we see that it's a mainstream liberal position that children should be given sex change hormones and puberty blockers.

There obviously was a slippery slope and people feel like they were tricked into supporting gays under false pretenses.

I don't know why liberals on this board engage in bad faith interpretations so often. It doesn't make your argument look stronger, it make you look stupid.

This is true. Exposure to other types of people tends to make people less tolerant. You're going against liberal orthodoxy by admitting this.

Why does an ostensible Democrat from New York(!) dislike liberals so much? Honest question, one which I asked before and which you ignored.

You have socially consevative but economically leftwing democrats and economically neoliberal social liberal democrats just as you have anti trump republicans who care more about tax cuts and side with social liberals on social issues. and pro trump republicans who care more about their rightwing position on social issues.

[Famous Mortimer]

I don't know why liberals on this board engage in bad faith interpretations so often. It doesn't make your argument look stronger, it make you look stupid.

Perhaps because your statement left room for interpretation, and in making that interpretation I applied Occam's Razor?

People came around on gay marriage because it was an abstract issue that only affected other people. Many of those who support gay marriage would go apesh**t if their kid came out. It just goes to show you that “tolerance” means you’re okay with gays, blacks, Muslims, etc. as long as they don’t move next door.

This is true. Exposure to other types of people tends to make people less tolerant. You're going against liberal orthodoxy by admitting this.

You're also going against science.

but now we see that it's a mainstream liberal position that children should be given sex change hormones and puberty blockers.

There obviously was a slippery slope and people feel like they were tricked into supporting gays under false pretenses.

I don't know why liberals on this board engage in bad faith interpretations so often. It doesn't make your argument look stronger, it make you look stupid.

This is true. Exposure to other types of people tends to make people less tolerant. You're going against liberal orthodoxy by admitting this.

Why does an ostensible Democrat from New York(!) dislike liberals so much? Honest question, one which I asked before and which you ignored.

I don't fit in either party. I am a registered Democrat right now. I don't see any reason to rush to change. My party affiliation is unimportant to my arguments. That people keep making points about it seems like a distraction to avoid addressing my points.

[catographer]

This is basically entirely a result of the new prominence of the transgender movement.

A lot of people came around to acceptance of gays because they were convinced by arguments that "gays just want the same rights as you, there's no slippery slope"

but now we see that it's a mainstream liberal position that children should be given sex change hormones and puberty blockers.

There obviously was a slippery slope and people feel like they were tricked into supporting gays under false pretenses.

progressive cultural shifts engender backlash. advocating for social equality and acceptance for ethnic, religious, and sexual minorities wakes people up. seeing opposition to these movements should inspire a greater push to advance equal rights and acceptance, not cowardice and retreat (like mortimer's explanation).

if someone was supportive of homosexuality, but then heard about transgender people and got turned off, then lemme say this: i understand the hesitance to accept and understand people who are different from you. especially when those ppl are different in a way that seems new, that you're unfamiliar with. but the challenge for all of us, morally, is to have open minds and seek to understand people who are different from us.

the lgbt movement pushed for acceptance of gays and lesbians. they were on the right side of history and morality in the 50s and 60s, and they still are. transgender people have only pushed for acceptance more recently. understandably, more people are hesitant to accept them. but with greater understanding, things will change. and ppl pushing for transgender acceptance are on the right side of history and morality too.

there are differing opinions within the lgbt movement and within the left about how to understand and accept transgender people. most want to be open minded and sensitive to the experiences of those who feel differently with their gender identity. children understand their gender identity at the same time, regardless of whether they're transgender or not. children who are transgender should be treated appropriately with the consultation of parents and doctors. treatment to help them live their true gender identity may be necessary, especially to treat gender dysphoria (distress/harm caused by gender-sex mismatch).

regardless, for every theoretical parent who gives their child hormone therapy and puberty blockers, there are dozens of transgender children and young adults who kill themselves because their families reject them or kick them out. it's imperative that regardless of how you feel about treating these kids, they are real; being transgender is real, natural, and kids should be accepted and loved.

[Hydera]

This is basically entirely a result of the new prominence of the transgender movement.

A lot of people came around to acceptance of gays because they were convinced by arguments that "gays just want the same rights as you, there's no slippery slope"

but now we see that it's a mainstream liberal position that children should be given sex change hormones and puberty blockers.

There obviously was a slippery slope and people feel like they were tricked into supporting gays under false pretenses.

progressive cultural shifts engender backlash. advocating for social equality and acceptance for ethnic, religious, and sexual minorities wakes people up. seeing opposition to these movements should inspire a greater push to advance equal rights and acceptance, not cowardice and retreat (like mortimer's explanation).

if someone was supportive of homosexuality, but then heard about transgender people and got turned off, then lemme say this: i understand the hesitance to accept and understand people who are different from you. especially when those ppl are different in a way that seems new, that you're unfamiliar with. but the challenge for all of us, morally, is to have open minds and seek to understand people who are different from us.

the lgbt movement pushed for acceptance of gays and lesbians. they were on the right side of history and morality in the 50s and 60s, and they still are. transgender people have only pushed for acceptance more recently. understandably, more people are hesitant to accept them. but with greater understanding, things will change. and ppl pushing for transgender acceptance are on the right side of history and morality too.

there are differing opinions within the lgbt movement and within the left about how to understand and accept transgender people. most want to be open minded and sensitive to the experiences of those who feel differently with their gender identity. children understand their gender identity at the same time, regardless of whether they're transgender or not. children who are transgender should be treated appropriately with the consultation of parents and doctors. treatment to help them live their true gender identity may be necessary, especially to treat gender dysphoria (distress/harm caused by gender-sex mismatch).

regardless, for every theoretical parent who gives their child hormone therapy and puberty blockers, there are dozens of transgender children and young adults who kill themselves because their families reject them or kick them out. it's imperative that regardless of how you feel about treating these kids, they are real; being transgender is real, natural, and kids should be accepted and loved.

Also the medical community regards sex hormone blockers(testosterone blockers for possibly mtf children and estrogen blockers for ftm children) to be safe. Liberal parents in the 00s got a lot of hatred and abuse when they had a child who was gay and they decided to accept their child. Conservatives attacked these parents for "brainwashing their children into being gay". Nobody remembers it now. But the same people who attacked gay children are now attacking transgender children with the same "their too young!!" argument.

The reason why possibly transgender kids are given medicine to block secondary sexual characteristics from occurring is to give them more time untill their around the 16-18 range and decide if they were transgender or not.

So lets say of kids who had been brought to a gender clinic at a young age. well 60-65% desist. The ones who don't are the ones who were grouped with gender nonconforming kids who later conformed and desisted by age 10-11.  However what do we do with the transgender kids who are persistently trans? do we just tell them to bugger off? Giving these kids who continued to persist with gender dysphoria and likely are not the ones who persisted. Sexual hormone blockers. it ensures that the child does not develop features of their birth sex. For mtf kids(no deep voice, no masculine facial structure, no facial and excessive body hair) for ftm kids(no breasts).

Because these blockers which if they decide they weren't transgender after all they could simply stop taking them and they get the puberty of their birth sex.

However if they are transgender then because of the medication they didn't need to spent money as a ftm for $5000-6000 for breast removal. or for mtf a magnitude of surgeries like Vocal surgery, facial surgery and laser hair removal. of which costs $25,000.   

Giving them blockers which cost $300-3000 a year depending on the medication. saves them much more money then they otherwise would of had to save for surgery.

Just saying they should wait until their adults to get medicine is making them go through struggle that never needed to happen just because people find transgender people icky.

[Famous Mortimer]

"These drugs we just started using are safe. Please don't ask how we know they are safe. We just know, it's bigotry to ask. Well yes, they cause you to have a micropenis and that can never be undone but they're still safe because they don't kill you that we know of, except for the fact that people claiming to be transgender actually become more likely to kill themselves the more they medically transition but that doesn't count. The drugs themselves don't kill you. Probably."

[Hydera]

"These drugs we just started using are safe. Please don't ask how we know they are safe. We just know, it's bigotry to ask. Well yes, they cause you to have a micropenis and that can never be undone but they're still safe because they don't kill you that we know of, except for the fact that people claiming to be transgender actually become more likely to kill themselves the more they medically transition but that doesn't count. The drugs themselves don't kill you. Probably."

https://www.endocrine.org/news-room/press-release-archives/2013/medical-intervention-in-transgender-adolescents-appears-to-be-safe-and-effective

You must be logged in to read this quote.

https://endocrinenews.endocrine.org/blocking-puberty-in-transgender-youth/

You must be logged in to read this quote.

https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/102/11/3869/4157558


https://www.endocrine.org/news-room/current-press-releases/experts-issue-recommendations-for-gender-affirmation-treatment-for-transgender-individuals

You must be logged in to read this quote.

If somebody is transgender and they have a micro-penis like.... how is that even a bad thing to them? Do you think their upset about the size of their penis?   It seems like your projecting your own mentality onto transgender people.



Also for suicide the suicide is over how society treats transgender people like sh**t. Being mocked, physically assaulted for looking transgender if they sadly don't pass, not being hired, being homeless. The same things that happened to most gay people. In fact the suicide attempt rate of transgender people is no different from the rates of gays in the 1990's of 40%.  And it only went down when gay acceptance went higher and higher. but i guess those gays who killed themselves shouldnt have been gay in the first place in your opinion right?

https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/859583

You must be logged in to read this quote.

[Since I'm the mad scientist proclaimed by myself]

"These drugs we just started using are safe. Please don't ask how we know they are safe. We just know, it's bigotry to ask. Well yes, they cause you to have a micropenis and that can never be undone but they're still safe because they don't kill you that we know of, except for the fact that people claiming to be transgender actually become more likely to kill themselves the more they medically transition but that doesn't count. The drugs themselves don't kill you. Probably."

They've been in use for like 50 years. That suicide argument is bullsh#t, btw. The opposite is true. And of course a "person" like you would neglect the fact that trans men exist.