Sharia courts in Ontario?

[Hatman 🍁]

Come on Al, there is nothing anti-woman about strippers. There are male strippers and female strippers.  If women can have a little fun at the local chipendales, I cant see why men cant do the same at a strip club. Now, it's the women who stuff silicon in their breasts who really have a problem.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Considering lots of strippers actually LIKE their jobs,

Maybe some do. Had it occured to you that most Muslim women like wearing headscarves? But that's "different" isn't it?

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Has it occured to you that maybe not all abuse is physical?

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No you're not

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One of the most unintentionally hilarious things I've read for quite while

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Come on Al, there is nothing anti-woman about strippers. There are male strippers and female strippers.

I don't know about "anti-woman" (although a devotee of strip clubs claiming to be "pro-feminist" is hypocritical no matter how you look at it IMO) but it certainly has a harmful effect on society and is ultimately degrading and dehumanising to everyone involved.

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I view that sort of thing in exactly the same light as strip clubs

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Question to ask yourself; why do they feel the need to do that?

[Bono]

People protesting this obviously hate freedom.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Maybe some do. Had it occured to you that most Muslim women like wearing headscarves? But that's "different" isn't it?

Not really "like" as much as having it shoved down their throat by their culture that they must. But perhaps saying that all countries should go the way of France is going too far, still I'd like to discourage since it's largely to subjegate women to second class citizens, and enforcement of it is only in countries that really do abuse women severely, like Saudi Arabia and Iran.

But as for strippers who like their jobs, what's wrong? It's a benefit for both me and her. No one's getting hurt.

Has it occured to you that maybe not all abuse is physical?

So what type of abuse is going on here?

No you're not

What am I doing that's wrong?

Like I said above, let's take any given night I went to a strip club, then assume for whatever reason I didn't go that night. The only result would be that the girls would have a little less money.

One of the most unintentionally hilarious things I've read for quite while

How the hell is what I'm doing equivalent to what the Saudis or Taliban do at all?

[Hatman 🍁]

Come on Al, there is nothing anti-woman about strippers. There are male strippers and female strippers.

I don't know about "anti-woman" (although a devotee of strip clubs claiming to be "pro-feminist" is hypocritical no matter how you look at it IMO) but it certainly has a harmful effect on society and is ultimately degrading and dehumanising to everyone involved.

Some feminists believe that it is an expression of sexual freedom. Also, believe it or not, strippers command a lot of power. Think of all the money they make. They can make men do anything really. That's like an equalization of the sexes. Not saying I totally agree, but many feminists would say that.

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I view that sort of thing in exactly the same light as strip clubs
[/quote]
I hate to sound like opebo, but that is a very prudish thought. Everyone likes to have a little fun sometimes, and for some people, seeing members of the opposite sex naked is exciting.

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Question to ask yourself; why do they feel the need to do that?
[/quote]

For a number of reasons, and I am sure we all know the main reason, but some also do it for themselves (self confidence). However, I feel it is a silly decision, and I think any real men fine fake breasts to be totally gross.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Question to ask yourself; why do they feel the need to do that?

Because some guys are idiots who think bigger is always better with breasts so it helps them make more money. Personally I find that a huge turn off and tend to avoid strippers with implants.

Of course out of all the girls I know, I've never met one with a major problem with strip clubs. I see guys take their girlfriends to them quite frequently, I once went to one in a group of 3, with my friend and his girlfriend. As I've said many times, there are actually more girls under 30 at the late night shift at the strip clubs I go to than men over 30.

Even my mom said she doesn't have a huge problem with strip clubs, just thinks they're a waste of money but if I like them go ahead. Also said she wouldn't care if I married a stripper.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Some feminists believe that it is an expression of sexual freedom.

Some people happen to be intellectually dishonest

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Not true at all. They are some of the most powerless people in society (although they do have a lot compared to, say, prostitutes).

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Not a lot generally speaking; there's certainly an illusion that becoming a stripper = lot's of $$$$$$$$$$$$ but then reality gets in the way.

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Maybe it is, but then who says that's always a bad thing?

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So? That does not excuse treating other human beings as if they were objects.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Not really "like" as much as having it shoved down their throat by their culture that they must.

That sort of patronising arguement happens to verge on the racist. But there's a lot of racism hiding behind leftwing sociology, so it's not suprising...

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I would have to disagree with you there

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C'mon, how hard is it to work out?

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I didn't say it did. Doesn't stop it from being very, very funny

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

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Not a lot generally speaking; there's certainly an illusion that becoming a stripper = lot's of $$$$$$$$$$$$ but then reality gets in the way.

Well I was once at the strip club here for about 3 hours and only got one lapdance, but I saw that girl to go to about 20 more guys during that 3 hours, and that's at $10 a pop. So she made at least $200 in those 3 hours. Now imagine that at even only 4 nights a week.

Plus my friend claims he knows a guy who has a major crush on her and who every week will come by and buy 5-6 dances from her and has probably spent over $500 on her overall. That's a lot. Apparnetely they also started talking and he found out that she's actually a lesbian, has a girlfriend, and does not like men at all, which I found kind of interesting.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

That sort of patronising arguement happens to verge on the racist. But there's a lot of racism hiding behind leftwing sociology, so it's not suprising...

It's not based on race, so it's not racist. What's the difference in race between a Christian Nigerian in the south and Muslim Nigerian in the north? Or a Christian Lebanese and Muslim Lebanese?

I would have to disagree with you there

So who is getting hurt? You even admitted that yes some strippers do like their job, which I doubt they would if they were being hurt.

I suppose they could be hurt if they run into a scumbag customer who buys them a drink and then drugs it for obvious reasons, but I've never done that, plus it could also happen to a non-stripper.

C'mon, how hard is it to work out?

I don't see it at all, no verbal abuse either.

Considering that they chose to work at that job anyway, it seems odd someone who choose to work at a place if they considered it abuse.

I didn't say it did. Doesn't stop it from being very, very funny

Oh well. I don't see what's funny about it.

[dazzleman]

Haven't you figured out that mindlessly mouthing feminist slogans, as well as questioning the mental health of anybody who questions them, means a person is not a mysoginist?  You must be slow or something.

I had the temerity to question that fact that NOW strongly condemns the same behavior in men that it defends in women, and pointed out that NOW set up a fund to support Andrea Yates, who killed all her children.  For that, I am a sick and obsessive hater.  Those who can't handle a philosophy being questioned in any way clearly can't be very comfortable with that philosophy.

In any case, very good points, Al.

No your problem is you can't figure out that not all feminists are like NOW, for example ultra-liberal feminist Betty Dodson has written articles attacking them and other "feminists" (I don't consider many of these true feminists because they actually support restricting women's rights) for being anti-male. She's also pro-porn.

I have no problem with equity feminists, as opposed to gender feminists, like NOW.  But the dominant strain of feminism is the gender feminism promulgated by NOW, and when I speak of feminism, it is that strain that I'm talking about.

Quite honestly, I'm not that interested in the whole issue as an academic pursuit, so I don't follow all the different strains of feminism closely.  But I do follow it closely enough to see the lies and hypocrisy behind NOW's positions on most issues.  NOW uses the lie that it supports equality to make it difficult to oppose their agenda of discrimination.

There are all types of feminists, even some who oppose abortion.  But I don't become interested until they start advocating discrimination against men, which NOW most definitely does.  I used to be a supporter of feminism, but gradually turned against it as I woke up to the reality of it.

And for the record, I haven't written 1/10 as much about feminism as you have about suburbs and strip clubs.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Then if you are even willing to admit this, then you should quit tarring all feminists with such a broad brush. you should realize most third wavers are actually pro-sex and largely not man-hating yet still quite liberal politically, and this is the most dominant form today, it just so happens that the old second wavers and radical feminists still make the most noise. But they are a rather small minority.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

It's not based on race, so it's not racist.

But the logic and bigotry behind it is exactly the same

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Depends what is meant by "race"

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You both are. I suspect you might not understand how though

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Try again

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Doesn't matter if they consider it to be abuse or not; the point is that other people might consider it abuse and on much better grounds than claiming that headscarves are abusive.

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It's the irony

[phk]

All of these religous courts should be banned for a sane Western secular one.

[dazzleman]

Then if you are even willing to admit this, then you should quit tarring all feminists with such a broad brush. you should realize most third wavers are actually pro-sex and largely not man-hating yet still quite liberal politically, and this is the most dominant form today, it just so happens that the old second wavers and radical feminists still make the most noise. But they are a rather small minority.

I don't like the politics of special interests.  I am neither a masculinist nor a feminist, but a humanist.  I don't agree with you that the man-haters are a small minority of feminists, but if that's what you think, fine.

In general, I'm not interested in politics based upon ethnic group, race or gender.  I just hate that whole brand of politics, and I don't find endless academic arguments about the status of women, or men for that matter, very interesting.

I have to question why you feel so compelled to defend the honor of feminists, when you make broad-brush attacks against a lot of people yourself.  Why do find feminism to be so deserving of your defense?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

But the logic and bigotry behind it is exactly the same

I don't see what's bigoted about disliking cultures that involve things like female genital mutilations or rape as a legal penalty.

Depends what is meant by "race"

Ethnically there is no difference, although the two would be very different in almost every way. I suppose in the Nigerian case they might come from different tribes, but that's not the issue. I certainly can't name which Nigerian tribes are mostly Christian and which are mostly Muslim.

You both are. I suspect you might not understand how though

I don't see how I can be hurt by something I enjoy, but whatever I guess I don't understand then.

Try again

So what type of abuse?

Doesn't matter if they consider it to be abuse or not; the point is that other people might consider it abuse and on much better grounds than claiming that headscarves are abusive.

but abuse on what grounds? This is what I don't understand.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I have to question why you feel so compelled to defend the honor of feminists, when you make broad-brush attacks against a lot of people yourself.  Why do find feminism to be so deserving of your defense?

In case you haven't noticed, I'm not defending that type of feminist.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

What exactly do the various strange cultural customs that you've just mentioned have to do with anything? Do you think that all Muslims have those customs or that they're somehow integral to Islam as a religion or what?

No point argueing with you over strip clubs; if you can't see the wood for the trees, that's your problem.

[angus]

Every time I see a woman wearing one of those I want to puke.

Yeah!  And those nasty rosaries too.  And the stars of David worn as necklaces.  And wedding rings.  How overtly religious!  And shoes too!  How offensive!  It all fills me with the urge to defacate.

(did I spell defacate right?)

Anyway, women should be clothing-free, jewelery-free, shoeless, and dancing in clubs naked to delight men.  When they're not in the kitchen cooking, that is!

"You clothe your women?!"
   --Feringi officer to Commander Riker

[dazzleman]

(did I spell defacate right?)

no -- it's defecate...

[angus]

ah, thanks.

I think I may have also misspelled Ferengi. 

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

What exactly do the various strange cultural customs that you've just mentioned have to do with anything? Do you think that all Muslims have those customs or that they're somehow integral to Islam as a religion or what?

Admittedly they aren't really Islamic customs, but they do prove my point, which is that cultures with such customs don't deserve respect and it's not racism or bigotry to oppose such things. Islamic traditions to women are similar.

If you want such an example that is largely part of Islam, look at honor killings.

No point argueing with you over strip clubs; if you can't see the wood for the trees, that's your problem.

oh well, I don't see it as a problem. I'm still a little suprised by what you were saying since it sounds like something you'd hear from the likes of Dworkin and McKinnon (who you obviously are not a fan of) or Robertson and Falwell (who you don't like very much either)

[dazzleman]

ah, thanks.

I think I may have also misspelled Ferengi. 

well that I wouldn't know...

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Islamic traditions to women are similar.

No they're not. Wearing a headscarf is not the same as female genital mutilation

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Honour killings are a bizarre cultural tradition in parts of Pakistan that has little to do with Islam at all; Islam has been used to justify them (on decidedly dodgy grounds) which is easier than you might think; most people in areas with honour killings can't read or speak Arabic.]