Transexuals In Government

[Jake]

It's also not normal to lop off your fingers, but if you're born with polydatcylism it's the only way to correct it.

Some people are born with a female brain and male genitals.  That is not a normal condition, but altering the body to match the brain is the only way for these individuals to become happy and comfortable with their bodies.

How would you feel if you suddenly woke up, found yourself with a female body, but still knew that you were really a man.  What would you do?  No, on second thought, don't answer that...

What you describe is obvious mental illness as I've been explaining. I appreciate your articulation of my point.

[Alcon]

It's also not normal to lop off your fingers, but if you're born with polydatcylism it's the only way to correct it.

Some people are born with a female brain and male genitals.  That is not a normal condition, but altering the body to match the brain is the only way for these individuals to become happy and comfortable with their bodies.

How would you feel if you suddenly woke up, found yourself with a female body, but still knew that you were really a man.  What would you do?  No, on second thought, don't answer that...

What you describe is obvious mental illness as I've been explaining. I appreciate your articulation of my point.

And what if it is?  Does it stop them from functioning in their jobs?

[dazzleman]

No, transexuals should not be banned from elective office.

But in all honesty, I doubt very much that I would ever vote for one.

Republican transsexual vs. me. Who do you vote for?

It would depend on my perception of the Republican candidate.  In general, I believe wanting to change gender is a sign of mental disturbance.  I know it's not politically correct to say that, but I don't care.  To me it's common sense.  Most guys would give up their lives before they'd let somebody chop off their equipment.

I have only known one transsexual, and he/she was a total nutcase, but not all transsexuals are necessarily that bad.  If the Republican candidate was at all acceptable, I would vote for him/her.  Otherwise, I would stay home and not vote.

[Alcon]

No, transexuals should not be banned from elective office.

But in all honesty, I doubt very much that I would ever vote for one.

Republican transsexual vs. me. Who do you vote for?

It would depend on my perception of the Republican candidate.  In general, I believe wanting to change gender is a sign of mental disturbance.  I know it's not politically correct to say that, but I don't care.  To me it's common sense.  Most guys would give up their lives before they'd let somebody chop off their equipment.

I have only known one transsexual, and he/she was a total nutcase, but not all transsexuals are necessarily that bad.  If the Republican candidate was at all acceptable, I would vote for him/her.  Otherwise, I would stay home and not vote.

I don't think that has much to do with political correctness.  Some people just find that offensive.  Not everything that offends some groups but not others is political correctness.  Not referring to transexuals as "trannies" would be a matter of political correctness - referring to them as universally crazy would be a matter of, well, declaring that a group of people is universally crazy.  I don't personally consider that Political Correcness, and I believe that someone getting offended by that is reasonable.

I think there's a lot of trauma involved that could come from feeling as if you are in the wrong body, which could cause disturbance.  But we need to be careful of making blanket assumptions - even if the majority of transgendered people are disturbed, it's unfair to force that upon the minority that aren't (which is a significant enough minority that it would be unfair).

I have no problem with individual analysis, but just because transgendered people are more likely to be disturbed than non-transgendered people does not mean we can assume that all transgendered people are too disturbed to do their job and refuse to hire any.

[Storebought]

It depends on the transsexual:

La' Staycia DeRue -- No
Selma Pussie -- Yes

[Alcon]

It depends on the transsexual:

La' Staycia DeRue -- No
Selma Pussie -- Yes

Not to be invasive man...but why do you know these names? 

[Max Power]

It depends on the transsexual:

La' Staycia DeRue -- No
Selma Pussie -- Yes

Something tells me Ms. Pussie is female....

[Storebought]

It depends on the transsexual:

La' Staycia DeRue -- No
Selma Pussie -- Yes

Something tells me Ms. Pussie is female....

Bingo!

And to Alcon: I'm not a prude! I've stepped foot into a gay bar before.

Overcoming the initial shock of seeing so many male Buffies and Ambers in one place, I thought the whole establishment was a little silly.

[Everett]

It depends on the transsexual:

La' Staycia DeRue -- No
Selma Pussie -- Yes

Something tells me Ms. Pussie is female....

Bingo!

And to Alcon: I'm not a prude! I've stepped foot into a gay bar before.

Overcoming the initial shock of seeing so many male Buffies and Ambers in one place, I thought the whole establishment was a little silly.

Out of curiosity, why did you go into a gaybar?

[dazzleman]

I don't think that has much to do with political correctness.  Some people just find that offensive.  Not everything that offends some groups but not others is political correctness.  Not referring to transexuals as "trannies" would be a matter of political correctness - referring to them as universally crazy would be a matter of, well, declaring that a group of people is universally crazy.  I don't personally consider that Political Correcness, and I believe that someone getting offended by that is reasonable.

I think there's a lot of trauma involved that could come from feeling as if you are in the wrong body, which could cause disturbance.  But we need to be careful of making blanket assumptions - even if the majority of transgendered people are disturbed, it's unfair to force that upon the minority that aren't (which is a significant enough minority that it would be unfair).

I have no problem with individual analysis, but just because transgendered people are more likely to be disturbed than non-transgendered people does not mean we can assume that all transgendered people are too disturbed to do their job and refuse to hire any.

Alcon, I do think it is political correctness to pressure people into saying there's nothing wrong with wanting to change your gender, when clearly there is.  It is a very sad situation when a person wants to mutilate his/her body.

As I said, I would try to make an individual judgment about the individual candidate.  I might vote for him/her.  But I am not going to pay homage to the gods of political correctness by saying that I don't think the whole condition is triggered by a mental disorder.

And I don't think I would ever be personally comfortable associating with a transsexual.

[Alcon]

I don't think that has much to do with political correctness.  Some people just find that offensive.  Not everything that offends some groups but not others is political correctness.  Not referring to transexuals as "trannies" would be a matter of political correctness - referring to them as universally crazy would be a matter of, well, declaring that a group of people is universally crazy.  I don't personally consider that Political Correcness, and I believe that someone getting offended by that is reasonable.

I think there's a lot of trauma involved that could come from feeling as if you are in the wrong body, which could cause disturbance.  But we need to be careful of making blanket assumptions - even if the majority of transgendered people are disturbed, it's unfair to force that upon the minority that aren't (which is a significant enough minority that it would be unfair).

I have no problem with individual analysis, but just because transgendered people are more likely to be disturbed than non-transgendered people does not mean we can assume that all transgendered people are too disturbed to do their job and refuse to hire any.

Alcon, I do think it is political correctness to pressure people into saying there's nothing wrong with wanting to change your gender, when clearly there is.  It is a very sad situation when a person wants to mutilate his/her body.

As I said, I would try to make an individual judgment about the individual candidate.  I might vote for him/her.  But I am not going to pay homage to the gods of political correctness by saying that I don't think the whole condition is triggered by a mental disorder.

And I don't think I would ever be personally comfortable associating with a transsexual.

I understand that, but one might argue that the definition of "multilation" is subjective.  After all, at least in the U.S., male genitalia is generally modified shortly after birth.  They're not really comparable, but both of them are forms of change that have more to do with preference than necessity.  And one could argue that since the gender transfer is more of an emotional necessity, it makes up in its relative extremeness and is thus equally defendable.

By the way, what mental disorder do you think it is triggered by?

[Storebought]

I don't think that has much to do with political correctness.  Some people just find that offensive.  Not everything that offends some groups but not others is political correctness.  Not referring to transexuals as "trannies" would be a matter of political correctness - referring to them as universally crazy would be a matter of, well, declaring that a group of people is universally crazy.  I don't personally consider that Political Correcness, and I believe that someone getting offended by that is reasonable.

I think there's a lot of trauma involved that could come from feeling as if you are in the wrong body, which could cause disturbance.  But we need to be careful of making blanket assumptions - even if the majority of transgendered people are disturbed, it's unfair to force that upon the minority that aren't (which is a significant enough minority that it would be unfair).

I have no problem with individual analysis, but just because transgendered people are more likely to be disturbed than non-transgendered people does not mean we can assume that all transgendered people are too disturbed to do their job and refuse to hire any.

Alcon, I do think it is political correctness to pressure people into saying there's nothing wrong with wanting to change your gender, when clearly there is.  It is a very sad situation when a person wants to mutilate his/her body.

As I said, I would try to make an individual judgment about the individual candidate.  I might vote for him/her.  But I am not going to pay homage to the gods of political correctness by saying that I don't think the whole condition is triggered by a mental disorder.

And I don't think I would ever be personally comfortable associating with a transsexual.

God, I must have lived in some freakshow world back in Louisiana...

I actually personally know a transsexual. I know her by his original male name.

[A18]

I would disown anyone I knew if I found out it was a transsexual.

[Max Power]

I would disown anyone I knew if I found out it was a transsexual.

And I'm sure they'd thank you.

[A18]

Is that a thanks?

[dazzleman]

I understand that, but one might argue that the definition of "multilation" is subjective.  After all, at least in the U.S., male genitalia is generally modified shortly after birth.  They're not really comparable, but both of them are forms of change that have more to do with preference than necessity.  And one could argue that since the gender transfer is more of an emotional necessity, it makes up in its relative extremeness and is thus equally defendable.

By the way, what mental disorder do you think it is triggered by?

You really can't compare circumcision to the complete removal of male genitalia.

Are you looking for a clinical name for a mental disorder in this case?  If so, you've come to the wrong place -- I only took introductory psychology.  In this area, I operate more on instinct and common sense, and that tells me that it is not normal for a person to want to change his/her sex.  I know it happens, and there could be a chemical or physical cause.  I don't know if we will ever know for sure what cause this, just as we may never know for sure what causes homosexuality.

[Alcon]

I understand that, but one might argue that the definition of "multilation" is subjective.  After all, at least in the U.S., male genitalia is generally modified shortly after birth.  They're not really comparable, but both of them are forms of change that have more to do with preference than necessity.  And one could argue that since the gender transfer is more of an emotional necessity, it makes up in its relative extremeness and is thus equally defendable.

By the way, what mental disorder do you think it is triggered by?

You really can't compare circumcision to the complete removal of male genitalia.

No, but they are both optional surgeries of preference.  The genitalia is replaced with female genitalia in one case, so it's not like it can be compared to complete castration either.  Circumcision is probably a poor metaphor but both are elective and can't really be called "mutilation" even if there is significant (and perhaps function-reducing) change.

It is complete replacement after complete removal and if they don't want it and would prefer female genitalia, why is wanting to remove the male genitalia a disorder?

Are you looking for a clinical name for a mental disorder in this case?  If so, you've come to the wrong place -- I only took introductory psychology.  In this area, I operate more on instinct and common sense, and that tells me that it is not normal for a person to want to change his/her sex.  I know it happens, and there could be a chemical or physical cause.  I don't know if we will ever know for sure what cause this, just as we may never know for sure what causes homosexuality.

Well, I don't mean to offend but I don't consider your "instinct" a valid way of determining mental illness.

Feeling as if you are in the wrong body, I'm sure, could be considered a form of mental illness.  But if the cure is changing gender, who cares what causes it?

[dazzleman]

Well, I don't mean to offend but I don't consider your "instinct" a valid way of determining mental illness.

Feeling as if you are in the wrong body, I'm sure, could be considered a form of mental illness.  But if the cure is changing gender, who cares what causes it?

You're going by a more clinical definition of mental illness.  I'm going by a more "street" definition.  In any case, I harbor a distrust of clinical psychology in general, and I don't consider everything promulgated in that field to be gospel.

My concern with the whole thing is:  is a sex change really the cure for what ails those who believe they are in the wrong body?  I have not exactly devoted years of my life to researching the issue, but I suspect not.  My mind is open to being proven wrong, but I am not going to sit here and assume that those who have sex change operations live happily ever after.  I suspect the reality may be very different.

I have to confess that I don't understand the whole issue very well on a personal level.  I am very happy being a man, and couldn't imagine doing anything to change that.  Every guy I know feels the same way, as far as I can tell.  I don't know a guy who wouldn't rather die than give up his penis.  That is normal, the way it is supposed to be.  A man wanting to be a woman, or vice versa, is not normal.

If this disorder can actually be cured with this operation, then fine.  But keep in mind that these issues are often more complex than the psychology field has acknowledged at time.  Clinical models often do not work out in reality.  I'd need to see a lot more research and real life studies before I could sign onto the idea of sex change as a real cure.

[Alcon]

Well, I don't mean to offend but I don't consider your "instinct" a valid way of determining mental illness.

Feeling as if you are in the wrong body, I'm sure, could be considered a form of mental illness.  But if the cure is changing gender, who cares what causes it?

You're going by a more clinical definition of mental illness.  I'm going by a more "street" definition.  In any case, I harbor a distrust of clinical psychology in general, and I don't consider everything promulgated in that field to be gospel.

Well, if by "street definition" you mean that people who want to change gender generally aren't entirely happy with their lives or stable, well...yes.

My concern with the whole thing is:  is a sex change really the cure for what ails those who believe they are in the wrong body?  I have not exactly devoted years of my life to researching the issue, but I suspect not.  My mind is open to being proven wrong, but I am not going to sit here and assume that those who have sex change operations live happily ever after.  I suspect the reality may be very different.

I have to confess that I don't understand the whole issue very well on a personal level.  I am very happy being a man, and couldn't imagine doing anything to change that.  Every guy I know feels the same way, as far as I can tell.  I don't know a guy who wouldn't rather die than give up his penis.  That is normal, the way it is supposed to be.  A man wanting to be a woman, or vice versa, is not normal.

Sure, but what's wrong with abnormality?

I can't understand it either (although frankly I'd rather be castrated than die, but that's just me...) but just because I don't feel that way doesn't mean that anyone who disagrees with me is nuts.

I know one myself, but not well, and it has made her (formerly him) happy.  I'm sure it doesn't entirely fix everything but if it makes some people feel better...then whatever.

I get your points, and in fact I find that I'm a little confused about where we disagree on this as I'm finishing up this post...

[dazzleman]

I get your points, and in fact I find that I'm a little confused about where we disagree on this as I'm finishing up this post...

So am I....  Often that happens with complex subjects in which the debate is over nuance.

So let me clarify my response to the original question -- I don't believe transsexuals, or anyone else for that matter, other than those who have lost their voting rights due to criminal activity, should be excluded from government.

[Alcon]

I get your points, and in fact I find that I'm a little confused about where we disagree on this as I'm finishing up this post...

So am I....  Often that happens with complex subjects in which the debate is over nuance.

So let me clarify my response to the original question -- I don't believe transsexuals, or anyone else for that matter, other than those who have lost their voting rights due to criminal activity, should be excluded from government.

Well, in that case we have just wasted a collective hour and a half of our lives. 

God bless the Internet.

[dazzleman]

Well, in that case we have just wasted a collective hour and a half of our lives. 

God bless the Internet.

It's never a waste of time to debate one of the more pressing issues of the day.....

In any case, I think what may have started the whole thing is that I went on to say, in my original post, that I would probably not vote for a transsexual.

[PADem]

Regardless of personal preference on the subject. I think that we should (as citizens of a proudly democratic society), that if elected (like my example was with a large majority), then she should be allowed to serve.

Furthermore, my example (see NZ Election thread), is and was a highly competent M.P. Not to add to that she won election from Wairarapa - a VERY working class, moderate conservative electorate.

[Alcon]

Well, in that case we have just wasted a collective hour and a half of our lives. 

God bless the Internet.

It's never a waste of time to debate one of the more pressing issues of the day.....

In any case, I think what may have started the whole thing is that I went on to say, in my original post, that I would probably not vote for a transsexual.

For the sake of argument, I strongly disagree!  You would vote for a transsexual.  We must debate this.

And thanks to this topic I've lost my appetite for dinner, too.  Oh well.

[dazzleman]

Well, in that case we have just wasted a collective hour and a half of our lives. 

God bless the Internet.

It's never a waste of time to debate one of the more pressing issues of the day.....

In any case, I think what may have started the whole thing is that I went on to say, in my original post, that I would probably not vote for a transsexual.

For the sake of argument, I strongly disagree!  You would vote for a transsexual.  We must debate this.

And thanks to this topic I've lost my appetite for dinner, too.  Oh well.

Ah, to be out on the west coast.  It's way past dinner time here.  I'm getting ready for bed.  Sorry to have killed your appetite, man.