Awaiting Trump's coal comeback, miners reject retraining
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Doimper
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« Reply #100 on: November 08, 2017, 08:09:25 PM »

They aren't the same. White coal miners punch far above their weight when you compare the sheer number of them vs. blacks living in poverty. Despite being way less in size, they receive far more sympathy, attention, and help from politicians. It's the epitome of white privilege, ironically, considering they are frequently pointed to as a group that invalidates the concept. It's all about facing less barriers than a minority in a similar situation does, and also why it's mainly whites who overcome these barriers then preach about bootstraps. The double standard is annoying.

So is it not possible to acknowledge that the double standard is annoying while also believing that they deserve help?
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jfern
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« Reply #101 on: November 08, 2017, 08:09:36 PM »

They aren't the same. White coal miners punch far above their weight when you compare the sheer number of them vs. blacks living in poverty. Despite being way less in size, they receive far more sympathy, attention, and help from politicians. It's the epitome of white privilege, ironically, considering they are frequently pointed to as a group that invalidates the concept. It's all about facing less barriers than a minority in a similar situation does, and also why it's mainly whites who overcome these barriers then preach about bootstraps. The double standard is annoying.

Hint: telling the white working class voters to go f**k themselves didn't work out last year.
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IceSpear
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« Reply #102 on: November 08, 2017, 08:12:21 PM »

They aren't the same. White coal miners punch far above their weight when you compare the sheer number of them vs. blacks living in poverty. Despite being way less in size, they receive far more sympathy, attention, and help from politicians. It's the epitome of white privilege, ironically, considering they are frequently pointed to as a group that invalidates the concept. It's all about facing less barriers than a minority in a similar situation does, and also why it's mainly whites who overcome these barriers then preach about bootstraps. The double standard is annoying.

So is it not possible to acknowledge that the double standard is annoying while also believing that they deserve help?

I never said they didn't deserve help.
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IceSpear
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« Reply #103 on: November 08, 2017, 08:14:28 PM »

They aren't the same. White coal miners punch far above their weight when you compare the sheer number of them vs. blacks living in poverty. Despite being way less in size, they receive far more sympathy, attention, and help from politicians. It's the epitome of white privilege, ironically, considering they are frequently pointed to as a group that invalidates the concept. It's all about facing less barriers than a minority in a similar situation does, and also why it's mainly whites who overcome these barriers then preach about bootstraps. The double standard is annoying.

Hint: telling the white working class voters to go f**k themselves didn't work out last year.

As usual, no rebuttal to the actual point. And not only that, you proved it in the process. Lol

By the way jfern, I thought you were a fan of having principles, not saying whatever you needed to say to win an election?
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IceSpear
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« Reply #104 on: November 08, 2017, 08:29:42 PM »

Al has had a particular interest in coal miners since he joined the forum well over a decade ago. At that time he had a D-WV avatar and was still realpolitik. I don't think he's trying to imply that it's some sort of either-or going on between white coal miners and working class people of color, even if that seems to be the frame in which American partisan politics has developed. Now, sometime several years later he started getting off on insulting folks, which I have been on the receiving end of myself, and it's not a trait of his that I find elevates his esteem, either.

Oh, now the hatred is understandable...lol.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #105 on: November 08, 2017, 08:36:37 PM »


How so? There are plenty of differences (of course) but in both cases we see localised economic depressions, decaying physical environments, poor housing and public services, epidemic levels of drug abuse, low life expectancy, etc. In in both cases we see only symbolic support from the State; certainly we see no serious attempts to alleviate the situation.

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The old coalfields in the Eastern United States have received almost no help from politicians since the mine closures in the 1980s that plunged them into economic despair (not that they were doing well before, o/c). I suppose Robert Byrd did his best, but then so have various senior figures in the CBC in their districts, and that kind of thing is not a substitute for serious state intervention. These places are beyond politically irrelevant and Donald Trump turning up to gladhand doesn't actually change that. I mean, you are aware that the Majority Leader of the Senate went out of his way to tank the UMWA pension fund (causing further hardship for the hundreds of thousands of former miners who depend on it) out of political spite?

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...

...

...

The fact that Woke Thatcherism exists is deeply disturbing.
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Intell
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« Reply #106 on: November 08, 2017, 08:38:30 PM »

A lot of people in this thread to have a R avatar.

I'm pretty sure an R avatar would be more fitting for the "leftists" who are far more concerned with defending poor white men than they are about defending the countless marginalized groups many of those poor white men despise and who they vote to selectively punish. I'm not sure why so many of you continue to insist their hypocrisy is morally justifiable. "Shaniqua in inner city Chicago is a welfare queen for getting food stamps, but I EARNED my disability check!"

Politicians have known for centuries now that as long as you tell the poor whites they're above those "other people", usually blacks but now extending to other groups as well, they'll happily support you. They aid and abet their own victimization, and they do so with glee. I have far more sympathy for those who deal with their situation without scapegoating minorities for all their problems.

Resentful and prejudiced whites fuel fascism, which leftists claim to vehemently oppose. Yet you then continue to make excuses for their deplorable behavior. Ironic.

No shaquina should get helped, as should the poor white people of Appalachia. No leftist is saying not to help people in inner city ghettos, or the blackbelt, but what you're saying is that we should single out and not help poor white people in Appalachia..
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Intell
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« Reply #107 on: November 08, 2017, 08:41:21 PM »

They aren't the same. White coal miners punch far above their weight when you compare the sheer number of them vs. blacks living in poverty. Despite being way less in size, they receive far more sympathy, attention, and help from politicians. It's the epitome of white privilege, ironically, considering they are frequently pointed to as a group that invalidates the concept. It's all about facing less barriers than a minority in a similar situation does, and also why it's mainly whites who overcome these barriers then preach about bootstraps. The double standard is annoying.

It's not the case of sympathy, yes from conservatives the white people of Appalachia get more "sympathy",  but when it comes down to help, no, the poor people of appalachia do not get help from the government, which is the same for every poor group in the United States.

R-PA is a more fitting avatar with a thatcher signature.

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Intell
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« Reply #108 on: November 08, 2017, 08:44:42 PM »

American liberals are truly awful.

It's disorienting to read ostensibly left-leaning people sh**tting on coal miners for not getting on their bike and looking for work as if they're Norman Tebbit.  

It's even more disorienting to see maroon avatars only come out of the woodwork when the topic is about the plight of poor white men.

There are pretty of maroon avatars that criticise conservatives about the plight of poor minority groups across the country, it's only the fact that now maroon avatars have to criticise Thatcherite neo-liberals on the plight of the rural white poor.
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Indy Texas
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« Reply #109 on: November 08, 2017, 08:52:49 PM »

A college student has no dependents, and indeed often is a dependent themself. If you are the sole breadwinner for a household, spending a significant amount of time with no income is no option.

One of my childhood friends was born while her father was still a medical resident.

While her father was in medical school, her mother worked various jobs (retail, hair stylist, etc) to pay their living expenses.

There are many non-traditional college students out there raising families and going to school part time.

I don't know why you all act as though no one has ever changed careers as an adult.
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IceSpear
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« Reply #110 on: November 08, 2017, 09:26:33 PM »


How so? There are plenty of differences (of course) but in both cases we see localised economic depressions, decaying physical environments, poor housing and public services, epidemic levels of drug abuse, low life expectancy, etc. In in both cases we see only symbolic support from the State; certainly we see no serious attempts to alleviate the situation.

Quote
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The old coalfields in the Eastern United States have received almost no help from politicians since the mine closures in the 1980s that plunged them into economic despair (not that they were doing well before, o/c). I suppose Robert Byrd did his best, but then so have various senior figures in the CBC in their districts, and that kind of thing is not a substitute for serious state intervention. These places are beyond politically irrelevant and Donald Trump turning up to gladhand doesn't actually change that. I mean, you are aware that the Majority Leader of the Senate went out of his way to tank the UMWA pension fund (causing further hardship for the hundreds of thousands of former miners who depend on it) out of political spite?

Quote
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...

...

...

The fact that Woke Thatcherism exists is deeply disturbing.

Symbolic support is better than no support. At least it calls attention to the issue. When was the last time a candidate made a name for themselves championing the plight of poor blacks the way Trump did for poor white coal miners? Even Obama, probably wisely from an electoral standpoint though not so much a moral one, knew to avoid that hornet's nest or risk a major backlash among whites.

I'm not saying coal miners have received tons of help. Just that it is disproportionate in comparison to their numbers. This is undeniable. And yeah, I'm well aware of what McConnell did. Yet these same people who he screwed over supported him overwhelmingly for re-election. Why is that? Oh right, because he was against the black guy in the White House. Just another example of voting against your own interests. Say what you want about "elitist liberals", but they wouldn't have done what McConnell did, even with an extremely unfriendly constituency. Yet they are supposedly the bigger evil. Give me a damn break.

I have no idea what you're talking about in your last sentence. How exactly is pointing out white privliege and arguing against the "bootstraps" narrative in any way "Thatcherism?" If anything it's the opposite. Unless that's just the new go to buzzword now that "neoliberal" is played out.
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IceSpear
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« Reply #111 on: November 08, 2017, 09:32:28 PM »

A lot of people in this thread to have a R avatar.

I'm pretty sure an R avatar would be more fitting for the "leftists" who are far more concerned with defending poor white men than they are about defending the countless marginalized groups many of those poor white men despise and who they vote to selectively punish. I'm not sure why so many of you continue to insist their hypocrisy is morally justifiable. "Shaniqua in inner city Chicago is a welfare queen for getting food stamps, but I EARNED my disability check!"

Politicians have known for centuries now that as long as you tell the poor whites they're above those "other people", usually blacks but now extending to other groups as well, they'll happily support you. They aid and abet their own victimization, and they do so with glee. I have far more sympathy for those who deal with their situation without scapegoating minorities for all their problems.

Resentful and prejudiced whites fuel fascism, which leftists claim to vehemently oppose. Yet you then continue to make excuses for their deplorable behavior. Ironic.

No shaquina should get helped, as should the poor white people of Appalachia. No leftist is saying not to help people in inner city ghettos, or the blackbelt, but what you're saying is that we should single out and not help poor white people in Appalachia..

I never said poor whites shouldn't be helped. But there's only so much you can do for someone who doesn't want the help, like the people in this article. The other problem is that the poor whites in question tend to either want help for nobody, or help only for themselves but not minorities. Shaniqua on the other hand does not tend to care if poor whites in West Virginia are benefiting from the same program she is. That's the disconnect.
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IceSpear
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« Reply #112 on: November 08, 2017, 09:37:17 PM »
« Edited: November 08, 2017, 09:43:20 PM by IceSpear »

They aren't the same. White coal miners punch far above their weight when you compare the sheer number of them vs. blacks living in poverty. Despite being way less in size, they receive far more sympathy, attention, and help from politicians. It's the epitome of white privilege, ironically, considering they are frequently pointed to as a group that invalidates the concept. It's all about facing less barriers than a minority in a similar situation does, and also why it's mainly whites who overcome these barriers then preach about bootstraps. The double standard is annoying.

It's not the case of sympathy, yes from conservatives the white people of Appalachia get more "sympathy",  but when it comes down to help, no, the poor people of appalachia do not get help from the government, which is the same for every poor group in the United States.

R-PA is a more fitting avatar with a thatcher signature.

Well, I guess that answers my earlier question about the Thatcherism thing.

Also, I'm confused. You want me to support the same party that poor white Appalachian coal miners do?  Huh Also, I'm not sure what world you live in where someone with a -5, -6 PM score would be remotely comfortable in the Republican Party, lol.
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« Reply #113 on: November 08, 2017, 09:39:37 PM »

A college student has no dependents, and indeed often is a dependent themself. If you are the sole breadwinner for a household, spending a significant amount of time with no income is no option.

One of my childhood friends was born while her father was still a medical resident.

While her father was in medical school, her mother worked various jobs (retail, hair stylist, etc) to pay their living expenses.

There are many non-traditional college students out there raising families and going to school part time.

I don't know why you all act as though no one has ever changed careers as an adult.

I've changed careers three (3) times as an adult.  I'm 60 years old now.  If I suddenly had to change careers, then what?  How much age discrimination would I face?  (Hint:  I began to face it in my forties.)  

The retrained who are 40 and up who have been structurally unemployed face discrimination on two (2) fronts.  HR departments always give short shrift to someone who's been unemployed for over six (6) months; they figure that if you haven't been hired by now, there's a reason folks don't want you.  This is even worse when you are over 40, and worse, yet, when you are over 50.  Then, too, when your prior experience is coal mining, you are looked as an employee likely to be someone who'll be absent a lot and drive healthcare costs up.
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JA
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« Reply #114 on: November 08, 2017, 10:14:55 PM »

American liberals are truly awful.

It's disorienting to read ostensibly left-leaning people sh**tting on coal miners for not getting on their bike and looking for work as if they're Norman Tebbit.  

It's even more disorienting to see maroon avatars only come out of the woodwork when the topic is about the plight of poor white men.

There are pretty of maroon avatars that criticise conservatives about the plight of poor minority groups across the country, it's only the fact that now maroon avatars have to criticise Thatcherite neo-liberals on the plight of the rural white poor.

I don't think IceSpear is even cognizant of the motivation behind our position on this issue or why we so much detest his position. He genuinely sees himself as being on the true left side which, from his perspective, I can somewhat understand. But he's mistaken though.

IceSpear is highlighting and strongly rebuking what he perceives as the rampant racism among the White working-class that motivate them to vote for right-wing, racist politicians like Donald Trump due to cultural/racial grievances. He's not entirely incorrect on this issue. There is a significant element of racism that motivates many within the White working-class. IceSpear is also correct in noting the structural inequalities of White privilege and how even the White poor have particular (relative) benefits when compared to, for example, the African American poor.

However, what IceSpear gets wrong is that he (a) is basing his understanding of White working-class motivations on voting results, which isn't an accurate depiction of this demographic group since it has low turnout levels due to alienation among large swaths of these Americans. Bigots are simply more motivated to vote than non-bigots, especially when those non-bigots simply see both parties as corrupt and voting pointless since it won't help their families. He also seems to (it's implied in his posts) believe that (b) the White working-class is more bigoted than other Whites in America, which is simply not true based on Psychological studies. IceSpear also assumes that (c) White privilege provides the White poor and working-classes with some substantially greater position over minorities in the same socioeconomic position, which allows him to disparage them in a way that he would never when discussing minorities. And he also seems to believe that (d) those of us on the Left are supporting White privilege by focusing on White working-class persons.

Let me tell you that we aren't focusing on the White working-class due to them being White. We're doing it because we notice the exceptional hostility directed towards these folks and we perceive them as a disempowered, disadvantaged group being attacked by a more powerful, wealthier group. We prioritize class-based issues since that's the primary center of power in our society - class status. Race, gender, sexuality, and so on are unquestionably important, but it's class that's the most significant of these intersectional systems of power. That's not to downplay the importance of things like institutional racism since they need to be addressed immediately, but we want to see the focus placed on all of the working class when discussing economic issues and the plight of the poor and working class. Dividing up the working class, whether through White racism or attacks upon Whites, isn't going to unify us along class lines against the mutual enemy of all workers, the ones who benefit from division - the upper class. So long as the workers remain divided, they're easy to exploit.
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jfern
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« Reply #115 on: November 08, 2017, 10:25:11 PM »

They aren't the same. White coal miners punch far above their weight when you compare the sheer number of them vs. blacks living in poverty. Despite being way less in size, they receive far more sympathy, attention, and help from politicians. It's the epitome of white privilege, ironically, considering they are frequently pointed to as a group that invalidates the concept. It's all about facing less barriers than a minority in a similar situation does, and also why it's mainly whites who overcome these barriers then preach about bootstraps. The double standard is annoying.

Hint: telling the white working class voters to go f**k themselves didn't work out last year.

As usual, no rebuttal to the actual point. And not only that, you proved it in the process. Lol

By the way jfern, I thought you were a fan of having principles, not saying whatever you needed to say to win an election?

Everything else being equal, yes there is an advantage to being white, but when you are telling dirt poor whites in Elliot County Kentucky, that they have white privilege, you are really exaggerating how much being white helps.
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heatcharger
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« Reply #116 on: November 08, 2017, 10:30:19 PM »

They aren't the same. White coal miners punch far above their weight when you compare the sheer number of them vs. blacks living in poverty. Despite being way less in size, they receive far more sympathy, attention, and help from politicians. It's the epitome of white privilege, ironically, considering they are frequently pointed to as a group that invalidates the concept. It's all about facing less barriers than a minority in a similar situation does, and also why it's mainly whites who overcome these barriers then preach about bootstraps. The double standard is annoying.

Hint: telling the white working class voters to go f**k themselves didn't work out last year.

As usual, no rebuttal to the actual point. And not only that, you proved it in the process. Lol

By the way jfern, I thought you were a fan of having principles, not saying whatever you needed to say to win an election?

Everything else being equal, yes there is an advantage to being white, but when you are telling dirt poor whites in Elliot County Kentucky, that they have white privilege, you are really exaggerating how much being white helps.

We didn't tell Elliott County that they had white privilege; we told coastal white liberals who whine about everything that they have white privilege.
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IceSpear
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« Reply #117 on: November 08, 2017, 10:38:21 PM »

American liberals are truly awful.

It's disorienting to read ostensibly left-leaning people sh**tting on coal miners for not getting on their bike and looking for work as if they're Norman Tebbit.  

It's even more disorienting to see maroon avatars only come out of the woodwork when the topic is about the plight of poor white men.

There are pretty of maroon avatars that criticise conservatives about the plight of poor minority groups across the country, it's only the fact that now maroon avatars have to criticise Thatcherite neo-liberals on the plight of the rural white poor.

I don't think IceSpear is even cognizant of the motivation behind our position on this issue or why we so much detest his position. He genuinely sees himself as being on the true left side which, from his perspective, I can somewhat understand. But he's mistaken though.

IceSpear is highlighting and strongly rebuking what he perceives as the rampant racism among the White working-class that motivate them to vote for right-wing, racist politicians like Donald Trump due to cultural/racial grievances. He's not entirely incorrect on this issue. There is a significant element of racism that motivates many within the White working-class. IceSpear is also correct in noting the structural inequalities of White privilege and how even the White poor have particular (relative) benefits when compared to, for example, the African American poor.

However, what IceSpear gets wrong is that he (a) is basing his understanding of White working-class motivations on voting results, which isn't an accurate depiction of this demographic group since it has low turnout levels due to alienation among large swaths of these Americans. Bigots are simply more motivated to vote than non-bigots, especially when those non-bigots simply see both parties as corrupt and voting pointless since it won't help their families. He also seems to (it's implied in his posts) believe that (b) the White working-class is more bigoted than other Whites in America, which is simply not true based on Psychological studies. IceSpear also assumes that (c) White privilege provides the White poor and working-classes with some substantially greater position over minorities in the same socioeconomic position, which allows him to disparage them in a way that he would never when discussing minorities. And he also seems to believe that (d) those of us on the Left are supporting White privilege by focusing on White working-class persons.

Let me tell you that we aren't focusing on the White working-class due to them being White. We're doing it because we notice the exceptional hostility directed towards these folks and we perceive them as a disempowered, disadvantaged group being attacked by a more powerful, wealthier group. We prioritize class-based issues since that's the primary center of power in our society - class status. Race, gender, sexuality, and so on are unquestionably important, but it's class that's the most significant of these intersectional systems of power. That's not to downplay the importance of things like institutional racism since they need to be addressed immediately, but we want to see the focus placed on all of the working class when discussing economic issues and the plight of the poor and working class. Dividing up the working class, whether through White racism or attacks upon Whites, isn't going to unify us along class lines against the mutual enemy of all workers, the ones who benefit from division - the upper class. So long as the workers remain divided, they're easy to exploit.

I must say, between this thread and the other one, you make very cogent arguments. Tongue

As for point C, I don't disparage them because they have white privilege. I do so because many of them frequently disparage poor minorities that they SHOULD have empathy for (welfare queens, takers, leeches, etc.)

Point D, it's not so much the left only, but the disproportionate attention they get among the entire political spectrum.

I agree with you that ideally people would vote based on their actual interests. But with the GOP continuing to transition into a white identity politics/racial grievance party with every passing day, I don't see that happening anytime soon. If anything the gap is only going to continue to widen.
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IceSpear
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« Reply #118 on: November 08, 2017, 10:41:30 PM »

They aren't the same. White coal miners punch far above their weight when you compare the sheer number of them vs. blacks living in poverty. Despite being way less in size, they receive far more sympathy, attention, and help from politicians. It's the epitome of white privilege, ironically, considering they are frequently pointed to as a group that invalidates the concept. It's all about facing less barriers than a minority in a similar situation does, and also why it's mainly whites who overcome these barriers then preach about bootstraps. The double standard is annoying.

Hint: telling the white working class voters to go f**k themselves didn't work out last year.

As usual, no rebuttal to the actual point. And not only that, you proved it in the process. Lol

By the way jfern, I thought you were a fan of having principles, not saying whatever you needed to say to win an election?

Everything else being equal, yes there is an advantage to being white, but when you are telling dirt poor whites in Elliot County Kentucky, that they have white privilege, you are really exaggerating how much being white helps.

Yes, that's exactly what white privilege is. The fact that all else being equal the white person will be better off. It was never meant to mean that every single white person is better off than every single minority, which seems to be a common misinterpretation.
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jfern
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« Reply #119 on: November 08, 2017, 10:48:21 PM »

They aren't the same. White coal miners punch far above their weight when you compare the sheer number of them vs. blacks living in poverty. Despite being way less in size, they receive far more sympathy, attention, and help from politicians. It's the epitome of white privilege, ironically, considering they are frequently pointed to as a group that invalidates the concept. It's all about facing less barriers than a minority in a similar situation does, and also why it's mainly whites who overcome these barriers then preach about bootstraps. The double standard is annoying.

Hint: telling the white working class voters to go f**k themselves didn't work out last year.

As usual, no rebuttal to the actual point. And not only that, you proved it in the process. Lol

By the way jfern, I thought you were a fan of having principles, not saying whatever you needed to say to win an election?

Everything else being equal, yes there is an advantage to being white, but when you are telling dirt poor whites in Elliot County Kentucky, that they have white privilege, you are really exaggerating how much being white helps.

Yes, that's exactly what white privilege is. The fact that all else being equal the white person will be better off. It was never meant to mean that every single white person is better off than every single minority, which seems to be a common misinterpretation.

There is only so much that white privilege can help you in some dirt poor mostly white county. There are simply more struggling white people than black people, and it's unjust to ignore the plight of certain poor people because they are white and didn't vote for your candidate.
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Holmes
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« Reply #120 on: November 08, 2017, 10:51:54 PM »

Devil's advocate: is a poor white person in Elliot county better off than an equally poor black person in Elliot county?
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IceSpear
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« Reply #121 on: November 08, 2017, 10:55:11 PM »

Devil's advocate: is a poor white person in Elliot county better off than an equally poor black person in Elliot county?

Is that really devil's advocate? It seems like an obvious yes.
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jfern
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« Reply #122 on: November 08, 2017, 10:56:53 PM »

Devil's advocate: is a poor white person in Elliot county better off than an equally poor black person in Elliot county?

There are literally 2 blacks in Elliot county.
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Santander
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« Reply #123 on: November 08, 2017, 10:59:49 PM »

Devil's advocate: is a poor white person in Elliot county better off than an equally poor black person in Elliot county?

There are literally 2 blacks in Elliot county.

6/5, to be exact.
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JA
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« Reply #124 on: November 09, 2017, 12:21:12 AM »
« Edited: November 09, 2017, 12:27:50 AM by Jacobin American »

American liberals are truly awful.

It's disorienting to read ostensibly left-leaning people sh**tting on coal miners for not getting on their bike and looking for work as if they're Norman Tebbit.  

It's even more disorienting to see maroon avatars only come out of the woodwork when the topic is about the plight of poor white men.

There are pretty of maroon avatars that criticise conservatives about the plight of poor minority groups across the country, it's only the fact that now maroon avatars have to criticise Thatcherite neo-liberals on the plight of the rural white poor.

I don't think IceSpear is even cognizant of the motivation behind our position on this issue or why we so much detest his position. He genuinely sees himself as being on the true left side which, from his perspective, I can somewhat understand. But he's mistaken though.

IceSpear is highlighting and strongly rebuking what he perceives as the rampant racism among the White working-class that motivate them to vote for right-wing, racist politicians like Donald Trump due to cultural/racial grievances. He's not entirely incorrect on this issue. There is a significant element of racism that motivates many within the White working-class. IceSpear is also correct in noting the structural inequalities of White privilege and how even the White poor have particular (relative) benefits when compared to, for example, the African American poor.

However, what IceSpear gets wrong is that he (a) is basing his understanding of White working-class motivations on voting results, which isn't an accurate depiction of this demographic group since it has low turnout levels due to alienation among large swaths of these Americans. Bigots are simply more motivated to vote than non-bigots, especially when those non-bigots simply see both parties as corrupt and voting pointless since it won't help their families. He also seems to (it's implied in his posts) believe that (b) the White working-class is more bigoted than other Whites in America, which is simply not true based on Psychological studies. IceSpear also assumes that (c) White privilege provides the White poor and working-classes with some substantially greater position over minorities in the same socioeconomic position, which allows him to disparage them in a way that he would never when discussing minorities. And he also seems to believe that (d) those of us on the Left are supporting White privilege by focusing on White working-class persons.

Let me tell you that we aren't focusing on the White working-class due to them being White. We're doing it because we notice the exceptional hostility directed towards these folks and we perceive them as a disempowered, disadvantaged group being attacked by a more powerful, wealthier group. We prioritize class-based issues since that's the primary center of power in our society - class status. Race, gender, sexuality, and so on are unquestionably important, but it's class that's the most significant of these intersectional systems of power. That's not to downplay the importance of things like institutional racism since they need to be addressed immediately, but we want to see the focus placed on all of the working class when discussing economic issues and the plight of the poor and working class. Dividing up the working class, whether through White racism or attacks upon Whites, isn't going to unify us along class lines against the mutual enemy of all workers, the ones who benefit from division - the upper class. So long as the workers remain divided, they're easy to exploit.

I must say, between this thread and the other one, you make very cogent arguments. Tongue

As for point C, I don't disparage them because they have white privilege. I do so because many of them frequently disparage poor minorities that they SHOULD have empathy for (welfare queens, takers, leeches, etc.)

Point D, it's not so much the left only, but the disproportionate attention they get among the entire political spectrum.

I agree with you that ideally people would vote based on their actual interests. But with the GOP continuing to transition into a white identity politics/racial grievance party with every passing day, I don't see that happening anytime soon. If anything the gap is only going to continue to widen.

Yes, they should absolutely have more empathy for their fellow Americans, especially the ones who’re suffering from similar economic conditions. But again, bigots are more likely to vote than non-bigots among the low turnout White working class, which skews the representation and image of their group disproportionately in favor of the bigots. There’s absolutely no strong social scientific evidence that demonstrates higher levels of racism among Whites without a college degree or the White working class. It’s also important to note the role our social system, which creates and enforced class divisions, also created and continues to enforce racial division. Race is a social construct; it never benefited the White poor or working class, nor did they create it. There have been a lot of race riots aimed at African Americans due to economic insecurity; it’s the same issue we see with the right-wing targeting immigrants. “They take our jobs, they’re lazy, they lower wages, they’re blah blah blah,” yet where’s the accountability of the employers who’ve exploited minority laborers for greater profit? The impoverished tenant farmers in the South didn’t benefit from slavery, nor did the laborers in the North, yet those poor Southerners were drafted to fight while slave owners could be exempted. It damn sure wasn’t the poor who owned slaves. It was a class issue.

It’s still about class today and the rightwing exploits fear of “the other” so that people stay focused on those even worse off while they pick their pockets. Sure, some people will always hate and that’s that; but many/most are motivated by more important issues than hatred, and that’s what we need to tap into. Most working class Whites don’t even vote; just imagine what we could do if we motivated them to turn out for us by appealing to their basic interests. Ever notice how higher turnout almost always correlated with better Democratic performance? It’s all about the turnout; we win when we motivate Americans to show up.
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