Indictment-O-Rama Megathread: Mueller indicts 13 Russians

[KingSweden]

Can somebody explain me why a sitting president can't be indicted?
Is there somewhere in the constitution an immunity clause?

It's not a settled question.  A 2000 memo from the DOJ Office of Legal Counsel concluded that the President could not be indicted.  However, a 1997 memo from the special counsel investigation of Bill Clinton concluded that indictment was viable.

Paula Jones's lawsuit against Clinton established a precedent that a civil suit against a sitting President could proceed while he was still in office.  It seems a reasonable extension of this that the President should also be subject to criminal proceedings.  But really, the only way to settle this is for some prosecutor to attempt it and let the courts rule.

I am pretty sure Mueller subscribes to the view that a sitting President cannot be indicted.

Almost certainly.

[Sestak]

This definitely deserves one.

[pbrower2a]

Can somebody explain me why a sitting president can't be indicted?
Is there somewhere in the constitution an immunity clause?

It's not a settled question.  A 2000 memo from the DOJ Office of Legal Counsel concluded that the President could not be indicted.  However, a 1997 memo from the special counsel investigation of Bill Clinton concluded that indictment was viable.

Paula Jones's lawsuit against Clinton established a precedent that a civil suit against a sitting President could proceed while he was still in office.  It seems a reasonable extension of this that the President should also be subject to criminal proceedings.  But really, the only way to settle this is for some prosecutor to attempt it and let the courts rule.

I am pretty sure Mueller subscribes to the view that a sitting President cannot be indicted.

The President can be indicted, but prosecuting him while he is President is futile.

[Person Man]

So, we have a smoking gun for the same thing they went after Clinton and Nixon for.

[junior chįmp]

So, we have a smoking gun for the same thing they went after Clinton and Nixon for.

Except nobody seems to care

[Silent Hunter]

You can prosecute him once he's out of office unless the next President pardons him and even that doesn't stop a state prosecution.

[Obama-Biden Democrat]

Grounds for impeachment if Trump lied about trying to fire Mueller – Ken Starr

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/politics/grounds-for-impeachment-if-trump-lied-about-trying-to-fire-mueller-%E2%80%93-ken-starr/ar-BBImIbE?li=AAggv0m&ocid=mailsignout

[GeorgiaModerate]

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[KingSweden]

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Oooooh

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

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Could this be what apparent Russian stooge Assange was trying to warn (fake) Sean Hannity about?
https://www.thedailybeast.com/julian-assange-thought-he-was-messaging-sean-hannity-when-he-offered-news-on-democrat-investigating-trump-russia

[pbrower2a]

Grounds for impeachment if Trump lied about trying to fire Mueller – Ken Starr

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/politics/grounds-for-impeachment-if-trump-lied-about-trying-to-fire-mueller-%E2%80%93-ken-starr/ar-BBImIbE?li=AAggv0m&ocid=mailsignout

Lying to the public is simply a minor offense. It is no crime to mislead the general public. That can be necessary for electioneering, and it is up to the public to decide whether to voter for a liar or which of two contradictory statements a candidate made is true or what it wants to hear. Minor traffic violation, like getting pulled over for 62 in a 55 zone. Of course a lie to the public may be proven as such, and if it is repeated to Congress or to federal investigators or in a court of
 law -- that is grist for investigation.

Lying to Congress or to federal prosecutors or  law enforcement, or perjury in a court of law (civil or criminal) is a federal offense. Such is criminal behavior because it distorts legal process and thus ... well, obstructs justice.  Obviously the falsehood must either be a known lie to the teller or a reckless misstatement of objective fact. Mistakes and faulty memory might not be criminal.

[Person Man]

Grounds for impeachment if Trump lied about trying to fire Mueller – Ken Starr

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/politics/grounds-for-impeachment-if-trump-lied-about-trying-to-fire-mueller-%E2%80%93-ken-starr/ar-BBImIbE?li=AAggv0m&ocid=mailsignout

Lying to the public is simply a minor offense. It is no crime to mislead the general public. That can be necessary for electioneering, and it is up to the public to decide whether to voter for a liar or which of two contradictory statements a candidate made is true or what it wants to hear. Minor traffic violation, like getting pulled over for 62 in a 55 zone. Of course a lie to the public may be proven as such, and if it is repeated to Congress or to federal investigators or in a court of
 law -- that is grist for investigation.

Lying to Congress or to federal prosecutors or  law enforcement, or perjury in a court of law (civil or criminal) is a federal offense. Such is criminal behavior because it distorts legal process and thus ... well, obstructs justice.  Obviously the falsehood must either be a known lie to the teller or a reckless misstatement of objective fact. Mistakes and faulty memory might not be criminal.

In Biblical times, perjury that caused death was prosecuted as murder.

[Silent Hunter]

FBI have a second Trump-Russia dossier

[pbrower2a]

Grounds for impeachment if Trump lied about trying to fire Mueller – Ken Starr

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/politics/grounds-for-impeachment-if-trump-lied-about-trying-to-fire-mueller-%E2%80%93-ken-starr/ar-BBImIbE?li=AAggv0m&ocid=mailsignout

Lying to the public is simply a minor offense. It is no crime to mislead the general public. That can be necessary for electioneering, and it is up to the public to decide whether to voter for a liar or which of two contradictory statements a candidate made is true or what it wants to hear. Minor traffic violation, like getting pulled over for 62 in a 55 zone. Of course a lie to the public may be proven as such, and if it is repeated to Congress or to federal investigators or in a court of
 law -- that is grist for investigation.

Lying to Congress or to federal prosecutors or  law enforcement, or perjury in a court of law (civil or criminal) is a federal offense. Such is criminal behavior because it distorts legal process and thus ... well, obstructs justice.  Obviously the falsehood must either be a known lie to the teller or a reckless misstatement of objective fact. Mistakes and faulty memory might not be criminal.

In Biblical times, perjury that caused death was prosecuted as murder.

There were some jurists in Nazi Germany who staged show trials, accepted evidence or confessions acquired through torture -- even ordering torture, or gave sanction to such. One of those was crushed to death under the rubble of his court in an Allied bombing attack, so at least he (the hanging judge Roland Freisler of the dreaded Volksgerichthof) met a fitting end instead of committing more murders as a judge and being around for Allied judgment -- which I suppose would have been death by hanging. Two others, including the Minister of Justice, committed suicide before they could be rounded up and tried, most likely for capital crimes.

In the first trial of Saddam Hussein, for which  he was convicted and sentenced to death, he ordered executions of some innocent people in a travesty of justice. In that trial the head of the secret police and the 'revolutionary judge' were also convicted  of capital crimes and sentenced to death.

Injustice is lethal, and perjury resulting in death is as much murder as  firing a gun at a store clerk or a police officer causing death. One of the Ten Commandments is "Thou shalt not bear false witness", which has some ambiguity on whether it applies to perjury (which makes a travesty of justice) or to religious prophecies. But let us remember that the ancient Hebrews put a high value upon justice as essential to the cohesion of their vulnerable community.

Injustice is a cornerstone of all forms of tyranny, and a sane society rejects it for pragmatic as well as moral reasons. The most dangerous aspect of the Trump Presidency is his contempt for the justice that underpins any good society -- far more than his economic sadism, his corruption, and his bigotry. 

How dangerous is the President's contempt for justice? Take that away, and you might have this President:

   

That's Calvin Coolidge, who at the least was a stickler for legal process and bureaucratic integrity. By current standards, Calvin Coolidge would be an awful President ... probably wholly unsuited to the Presidency ninety years after he was President. But America was very different back then.

[Virginiá]

https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/2018-state-of-the-union-address/state-donald-trump-he-thinks-it-couldn-t-be-better-n842501

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[KingSweden]

https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/2018-state-of-the-union-address/state-donald-trump-he-thinks-it-couldn-t-be-better-n842501

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This will go exactly nowhere. Easily the dumbest plan I have ever heard.

Glad to hear he knows firing Mueller would be dumb; but not as dumb as a “lol you got prosecuted dood”

[Hindsight was 2020]

https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/2018-state-of-the-union-address/state-donald-trump-he-thinks-it-couldn-t-be-better-n842501

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Holy f**k Trump is retarded

[Silent Hunter]

There's an awful lot of "friends" willing to reveal compromising information about Trump, it seems.

[KingSweden]

There's an awful lot of "friends" willing to reveal compromising information about Trump, it seems.

A lot of these stories feel like “kill it with fire before he does something dumb”

[Angel of Death]

It feels like we're nearing some kind of singularity.

[Shameless Lefty Hack]

https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/2018-state-of-the-union-address/state-donald-trump-he-thinks-it-couldn-t-be-better-n842501

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Holy f**k Trump is retarded

There's something really amusing in the idea that no matter the context, no matter his position, no matter how it would look, when Trump is cornered his chief instinct is to try and sue someone.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/2018-state-of-the-union-address/state-donald-trump-he-thinks-it-couldn-t-be-better-n842501

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Holy f**k Trump is retarded

There's something really amusing in the idea that no matter the context, no matter his position, no matter how it would look, when Trump is cornered his chief instinct is to try and sue someone.

It's just a facet of who he is. If you look at any part of Trump's life - big or small, recent or distant past - what you will find is a man trying to abuse the system to his personal advantage.

[Shameless Lefty Hack]

https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/2018-state-of-the-union-address/state-donald-trump-he-thinks-it-couldn-t-be-better-n842501

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Holy f**k Trump is retarded

There's something really amusing in the idea that no matter the context, no matter his position, no matter how it would look, when Trump is cornered his chief instinct is to try and sue someone.

It's just a facet of who he is. If you look at any part of Trump's life - big or small, recent or distant past - what you will find is a man trying to abuse the system to his personal advantage.

Well sure. And I'll further acknowledge the second tool in his box: he also fires people.

He tried to fire mueller, and that didn't work. Now he's gonna try and sue mueller!

[Obama-Biden Democrat]

What is stopping Trump from just lying to Mueller and saying 'sorry I can't recall what happened that day', or 'I don't remember saying that'. Like Jeff Sessions did when he was testifying to the Senate. How can you prove that someone is lying about not remembering?

[Doimper]

What is stopping Trump from just lying to Mueller and saying 'sorry I can't recall what happened that day', or 'I don't remember saying that'. Like Jeff Sessions did when he was testifying to the Senate. How can you prove that someone is lying about not remembering?

You usually can't. I really doubt Trump has the discipline to just say that instead of clumsily trying to defend himself, though.