JOE MANCHIN 2020!

[TheSaint250]

I might vote for him

[Statilius the Epicurean]

Perfect way to give a free Senate seat to the GOP...

[Lechasseur]

I'd vote for him, but I can't see him ever winning the Democratic nomination.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

He is our best bet, tbh. If we ain't getting Bernie, then he is second best. His losses among Bernie or bust peeps will be massively overshadowed by his amazing performance among blue collar workers and I could easily see him getting 350+EV's.


P.S-Please dont post in this thread, ProgressiveCanadian.

Bernie bros actually would vote for him. He's a white guy from a rural state.

I don't know if Manchin is the Dems best bet, but he's a serious candidate.

And, yes, white male voters ought to see a Democratic Party not look at them as if they're the root of all evil in America. 

What Democrat has said that?

(I'm obviously talking about in terms of prominent Democratic leaders and politicians, not some random person on Twitter.)

[Coraxion]

He is our best bet, tbh. If we ain't getting Bernie, then he is second best. His losses among Bernie or bust peeps will be massively overshadowed by his amazing performance among blue collar workers and I could easily see him getting 350+EV's.


P.S-Please dont post in this thread, ProgressiveCanadian.

Bernie bros actually would vote for him. He's a white guy from a rural state.

I don't know if Manchin is the Dems best bet, but he's a serious candidate.

And, yes, white male voters ought to see a Democratic Party not look at them as if they're the root of all evil in America.  

That's not what we think. However, it is what they think because of their massive victim complex.

I don't know who the "we" is you mention.  I only know the tone and rhetoric of the identity politics that has seemingly taken the Democratic Party by storm.  

I would like to know who this "we" is that you refer to, and what the attitude toward America that "we" holds and projects.  I've been on Atlas long enough to know that not everyone who posts here actually loves America and wishes it well.  

Identity politics is an America tradition. The notion that only Democrats participate in it is ludicrous. There's a reason a guy like Ben Sasse has pictures of him taken in cornfields and on a farm

Republicans, however, have always been the party that did more to speak to Americans as Americans and not as port of special groups.  Democrats have always been the party of group appeals.  This is nothing new; it's a longstanding pattern.

What we have now, however, is a Democratic Party taking identity politics to a new level, in its attempts to cobble together a majority-minority coalition to sweep to victory.  This can only be done by appeals to group special interests, but these group special interests are often diametrically opposed to the interests of America as a whole.

There are appeals to Hispanics to allow for more immigration.  But is more immigration in the interest of the whole of America, of which Hispanics here are already a part?  There are appeals to blacks to enviscerate police over police brutality, but is that consistent with the well being of Americans who face varying degrees of violent crime and need police with the will to enforce laws and a citizenry that obeys the lawful directives of law enforcement officers on duty.  Loyalty to ethnic group or political alliance is encouraged by today's Democratic Party over loyalty to country.  A nation awash in identity politics is a nation whose leaders obtain power by accumulating more political debts than they can pay.

"I'm not a racist, but minorities are not American."

That's an interpretation of what you project on others.  Not a fact.  But it does beg a question; the question of "What is an 'American'?".

Being an American, in my book, has nothing to do with race, color or national origin  It has very much to do with loyalty.  Is your loyalty to the United States of America?  Do you advocate policies that are in the interests of the United States, even if they run counter to the interests of the country of your origin/heritage?  Do you identify yourself as an American and mean it?  Will you make common cause with folks who are not of your ethnic heritage in opposition to folks who are of your ethnic heritage if doing so is clearly in the interest of America as a whole?

Being an American, in my book, means being committed to certain things culturally.  It means being committed to speaking English, and to respecting English as the primary language of America.  It means being committed to the rule of law, and not the rule of ethnic or tribal customs and loyalties.  (That, by the way, includes our immigration laws.) It means recognizing the legitimacy of elected officials whom you do not agree with and who are not of your race/ethnicity, and it means recognizing them even if they defeat candidates of your choice  (And, yes, a degree of the response to Obama by some white folks was, decidedly, un-American.)  It means forsaking institutions that run counter to secular liberal democracy and the rule of law; things such as Sharia Law, honor killings, and the right of individuals to make decisions regarding their own lives.  

Being an American, in my book, means being of Mexican descent and refuting President Felipe Calderon's statement of "Wherever a Mexican is, there is Mexico." and recognize the Mexican War as a done deal.  It means being Arab and renouncing Sharia Law and the idea of a Caliphate.  It means being Israeli and renouncing the deeds of Jonathan Pollard.  It means being supportive of America in its wars, and not of its enemies.  And, yes, it means recognizing we are ONE nation, and there is no "Southern"Nation (for all the neo-Congederate readers.  But it also means that white folks have a legitimate right to weigh in on issues pertaining to the actions of non-white folks; the idea that white folks have no right to weigh in on problems affecting predominatly minority folks and neighborhoods is no more American than minority folks have to weigh in on problems that appear to predominantly affect white folks and neighborhoods.  America is too interconnected for that, is it not?

America is a unique nation; it's not "blood and soil", but "e pluribus unum".  Diverse people have become part of a united nation because they were willing to forsake old authorities for the authority of America and the freedoms that come with it.  I understand that lots of folks (including folks whose families have been in this country for centuries) feel "alienated".  To that, I would ask if some of that "alienation" is self-inflicted?  Do people talk themselves into being more victimized than they actually have been?  America, its republican form of government with democratic features, its guaranteed and enumerated freedoms, didn't just happen, and doesn't just happen.  To keep it happening, it requires some people to do some degree of changing their mind, and develop a willingness to be part of a greater whole.  Some folks never get that.  

Wrong. The answer is that if you live in America, you're American.

[NEW JERSEY FOR MENENDEZ]

[Shameless Lefty Hack]

Why do blue dog Dems on this board want to lose the Senate so bad?

[NEW JERSEY FOR MENENDEZ]

Why do blue dog Dems on this board want to lose the Senate so bad?

It's the Bernie Hacks (like yourself) who are going "PRIMARY JOE MANCHIN" or "PRIMARY HEIDI HEITKAMP" in states with high GOP PVIs. If, by some alien space bats, Paula Jean defeats Manchin in the primary, Paula Jean will lose harder than Tennant did in 2014.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

two pro-life parties.

Not happening. The issue is far too polarizing.

[Unapologetic Chinaperson]

He is our best bet, tbh. If we ain't getting Bernie, then he is second best. His losses among Bernie or bust peeps will be massively overshadowed by his amazing performance among blue collar workers and I could easily see him getting 350+EV's.


P.S-Please dont post in this thread, ProgressiveCanadian.

Bernie bros actually would vote for him. He's a white guy from a rural state.

I don't know if Manchin is the Dems best bet, but he's a serious candidate.

And, yes, white male voters ought to see a Democratic Party not look at them as if they're the root of all evil in America. 

That's not what we think. However, it is what they think because of their massive victim complex.

I don't know who the "we" is you mention.  I only know the tone and rhetoric of the identity politics that has seemingly taken the Democratic Party by storm.  

I would like to know who this "we" is that you refer to, and what the attitude toward America that "we" holds and projects.  I've been on Atlas long enough to know that not everyone who posts here actually loves America and wishes it well.  

Identity politics is an America tradition. The notion that only Democrats participate in it is ludicrous. There's a reason a guy like Ben Sasse has pictures of him taken in cornfields and on a farm

Republicans, however, have always been the party that did more to speak to Americans as Americans and not as port of special groups.  Democrats have always been the party of group appeals.  This is nothing new; it's a longstanding pattern.

What we have now, however, is a Democratic Party taking identity politics to a new level, in its attempts to cobble together a majority-minority coalition to sweep to victory.  This can only be done by appeals to group special interests, but these group special interests are often diametrically opposed to the interests of America as a whole.

There are appeals to Hispanics to allow for more immigration.  But is more immigration in the interest of the whole of America, of which Hispanics here are already a part?  There are appeals to blacks to enviscerate police over police brutality, but is that consistent with the well being of Americans who face varying degrees of violent crime and need police with the will to enforce laws and a citizenry that obeys the lawful directives of law enforcement officers on duty.  Loyalty to ethnic group or political alliance is encouraged by today's Democratic Party over loyalty to country.  A nation awash in identity politics is a nation whose leaders obtain power by accumulating more political debts than they can pay.

Let me try to respond this with a more detailed response than "I'm not racist, but minorities are not American."

Yeah, Cora was being very blunt with his response, to put it lightly. But think about it; your response does imply that the interests of minorities are in direct opposition in the interest of America. Was that what you meant? If that was what you meant, is that really so?

Let's take an example you cite: Is reducing police brutality also in the best interest of America? To me, the answer is an unequivocal YES, and furthermore it does not conflict with having strong and effective police departments. If anything, excessive police brutality hurts the police and helps the criminals, since it destroys the police-community bonds that are needed for effective crime-fighting. Furthermore, while police brutality has been framed as a black issue, for legitimate reasons, we must not forget that other races - white, Hispanic, Asian, Native American, etc. - are also victims of police brutality.

That's just one example. There are a myriad of other issues that uniquely affect X group, whether it's employment discrimination, educational injustice, housing segregation, or environmental racism. Is fighting against them somehow "un-American," or against the interests of America? Of course not. It is the issues themselves that are against the interests of America, for they weaken it and make lie of the principles of equality and justice for all.

And likewise, fighting these issues has a long and storied history in America. You surely heard of Federick Douglass and Harriet Tubman, who risked their lives to escape and later end slavery. You heard of the Radical Republicans who came into power wanting a more just America. You heard of MLK and Rosa Parks, maybe not of the many other leaders who defined the Civil Rights Movement. You've heard of Selma and Stonewall. Today's activists are simply heirs to that great American tradition of finding justice and shaping our society for the better.

You clearly know of the oppression many Americans have faced over the course of our history. But imagine having to experience that kind of oppression. Our schools and culture have taught us from childhood that we live in a colorblind society that has transcended our tribal instincts. This is a laudable future, but this is not our present reality, and when children come home and see the oppression they and their families face, they know that they have been taught a lie. So they distrust the system, and they get angry.

You've said that some of these people should have a "change of mind" in your other post. But maybe take a few minutes to understand the point of view of other people; it goes both ways, after all. Talk to people; understand their motivations, and if you find them to be a bit too "angry" for you, give them reasons to have hope, not more anger. If you can't do that for whatever reason, just meditate on what I said for a few minutes, hours, or days. You have love in your heart; search it, and maybe you'll find something new.

[Unapologetic Chinaperson]

As for the actual topic: please not.

Like Manchin is awesome in the Senate, but let's not have TWO pro-fossil fuel presidential candidates please!

[GoTfan]

He is our best bet, tbh. If we ain't getting Bernie, then he is second best. His losses among Bernie or bust peeps will be massively overshadowed by his amazing performance among blue collar workers and I could easily see him getting 350+EV's.


P.S-Please dont post in this thread, ProgressiveCanadian.

Bernie bros actually would vote for him. He's a white guy from a rural state.

If you think that, you're beyond help.

[Unapologetic Chinaperson]

As for the actual topic: please not.

Like Manchin is awesome in the Senate, but let's not have TWO pro-fossil fuel presidential candidates please!

Agreed. Manchin is the opposite sort of moderate Democrats need. We can't out-Trump Trump, by targeting those who: "cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations." We don't need a fiscally liberal, socially conservative nationalist. We need a fiscally moderate, socially liberal globalist, who can win AZ and FL and the Philadelphia suburbs. Manchin is not that canidate.

How does social liberalism appeal to Floridians? It's a southern state that's reliant on Dems turning out black voters.

I think the better question to ask is how would fiscal moderation turn out the Democratic base there (or anywhere)?

[GoTfan]

As for the actual topic: please not.

Like Manchin is awesome in the Senate, but let's not have TWO pro-fossil fuel presidential candidates please!

Agreed. Manchin is the opposite sort of moderate Democrats need. We can't out-Trump Trump, by targeting those who: "cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations." We don't need a fiscally liberal, socially conservative nationalist. We need a fiscally moderate, socially liberal globalist, who can win AZ and FL and the Philadelphia suburbs. Manchin is not that canidate.

How does social liberalism appeal to Floridians? It's a southern state that's reliant on Dems turning out black voters.

I think the better question to ask is how would fiscal moderation turn out the Democratic base there (or anywhere)?

Ding ding ding! We have a winner, folks!

[Co-Chair Bagel23]

Why do blue dog Dems on this board want to lose the Senate so bad?

It's the Bernie Hacks (like yourself) who are going "PRIMARY JOE MANCHIN" or "PRIMARY HEIDI HEITKAMP" in states with high GOP PVIs. If, by some alien space bats, Paula Jean defeats Manchin in the primary, Paula Jean will lose harder than Tennant did in 2014.

[PoliticalShelter]

I would characterise Florida as a (compared to the rest of America) economically centre right* and socially centre left state. It's a very urbanised state with the two main swing groups in the state being Cubans and out of state retirees.

*the big exception being on Medicare/Social Security.

[Shameless Lefty Hack]

Why do blue dog Dems on this board want to lose the Senate so bad?

It's the Bernie Hacks (like yourself) who are going "PRIMARY JOE MANCHIN" or "PRIMARY HEIDI HEITKAMP" in states with high GOP PVIs. If, by some alien space bats, Paula Jean defeats Manchin in the primary, Paula Jean will lose harder than Tennant did in 2014.

Okay, so who are you going to run in the special to replace Manchin?

EDIT: Oh wait lol WV fills vacancies by gubernatorial appointment. R+ 1 for four years.

[Co-Chair Bagel23]

Lol Paula Jean Swearengin primarying Joe Manchin. Dumbest thing Justice Dems could possibly do is waste time, money, energy, and resources, on losing in a red state.

[Shameless Lefty Hack]

Lol Paula Jean Swearengin primarying Joe Manchin. Dumbest thing Justice Dems could possibly do is waste time, money, energy, and resources, on losing in a red state.

It's probably good for Manchin, as I've said on this site time and time again. Lets him punch left and get press for a solid six months before the general.

[GoTfan]

Lol Paula Jean Swearengin primarying Joe Manchin. Dumbest thing Justice Dems could possibly do is waste time, money, energy, and resources, on losing in a red state.

Well as I've said before, Manchin is basically a Republican.

[Bidenworth2020]

Lol Paula Jean Swearengin primarying Joe Manchin. Dumbest thing Justice Dems could possibly do is waste time, money, energy, and resources, on losing in a red state.

it really is saddening to see that bernie or bust peeps have learned nothing. IT IS BETTER TO GET YOUR WAY HALF OF THE TIME THEN NONE OF THE TIME!!!!

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Lol Paula Jean Swearengin primarying Joe Manchin. Dumbest thing Justice Dems could possibly do is waste time, money, energy, and resources, on losing in a red state.

[White Trash]

Depending on the options, I'd vote for him in a primary. But there's no way he actually runs.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Lol Paula Jean Swearengin primarying Joe Manchin. Dumbest thing Justice Dems could possibly do is waste time, money, energy, and resources, on losing in a red state.

Well as I've said before, Manchin is basically a Republican.

Uh huh. If there was a Republican in his seat Obamacare repeal would've passed the Senate.

[Shameless Lefty Hack]

But seriously why does anyone think that Manchin is so much more valuable than any other Democrat who could be POTUS that we should give up a hard to hold Senate seat?