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  Talk Elections
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  If the election of 1988 were held today...
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Author Topic: If the election of 1988 were held today...  (Read 3276 times)
RJ
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« Reply #25 on: August 16, 2005, 04:46:39 pm »

Unbridled capitalism? We are socialist-lite.

Can an average Joe start a computer software the same way Bill Gates did? How about a car company similar to the doings of Henry Ford?

The answer to both of these is of course no, but I wouldn't exactly say the reason is socialism.

Creating things more and more cheaply isn't called slavery. It's called progress, and it means those that were tied up in manufacturing can now do something else, which in turn increases our standard of living.

Whose standard of living does this increase, the same people who made it impossible to do what people like Henry Ford or Bill Gates did?
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A18
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« Reply #26 on: August 16, 2005, 04:49:43 pm »

You have to do something original. I am sorry some communists don't understand that.

Anyone who buys goods and services benefits from an increase in productivity.
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Pestilence Comes Out of Retirement
Beef
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« Reply #27 on: August 16, 2005, 05:55:55 pm »


Why should you be able to pursue happiness, but not the corporation? Surely, the people who run the corporation have the right to pursue happiness by firing you, under your argument?

The rights of the individual do not apply to corporations.  Corporations are a tool to serve individuals.  Not the other way around.
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A18
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« Reply #28 on: August 16, 2005, 05:58:34 pm »

The rights of the individual do not apply to individuals who own corporations?
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Emsworth
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« Reply #29 on: August 16, 2005, 06:56:05 pm »


Why should you be able to pursue happiness, but not the corporation? Surely, the people who run the corporation have the right to pursue happiness by firing you, under your argument?

The rights of the individual do not apply to corporations.
Why shouldn't they apply to those who own the corporations? To rephrase the question: Why should your boss not be entitled to pursue happiness by firing you?

In any event, the notion of a so-called "right to pursue happiness" is rather arbitrary. If it exists, it does not override another person's right to property.
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Pestilence Comes Out of Retirement
Beef
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« Reply #30 on: August 16, 2005, 08:52:33 pm »


In any event, the notion of a so-called "right to pursue happiness" is rather arbitrary. If it exists, it does not override another person's right to property.

Well, by that logic we should have no tax whatsoever.
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A18
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« Reply #31 on: August 16, 2005, 08:54:47 pm »

Taxation is justified only to the extent that it protects freedom.
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Virginian87
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« Reply #32 on: August 16, 2005, 09:06:31 pm »

Taxation is justified only to the extent that it protects freedom.

...and, in addition to defense, provides us with public education, county, state, and federally-sposored transportation, Social Security, Medicare, public works and improvements, recreational facilities, and a host of other things.
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A18
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« Reply #33 on: August 16, 2005, 09:10:15 pm »

No, only freedom. Roads should be funded by tolls, ideally, but the gas tax is pretty much the same thing, so oh well.
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Virginian87
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« Reply #34 on: August 16, 2005, 09:15:24 pm »

No, only freedom. Roads should be funded by tolls, ideally, but the gas tax is pretty much the same thing, so oh well.

Question: Are you a fan of Grover Norquist?  Have you read any of his books?
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A18
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« Reply #35 on: August 16, 2005, 09:17:28 pm »

No.
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Emsworth
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« Reply #36 on: August 16, 2005, 09:39:52 pm »

In any event, the notion of a so-called "right to pursue happiness" is rather arbitrary. If it exists, it does not override another person's right to property.
Well, by that logic we should have no tax whatsoever.
No, not so. The power to tax is absolutely independent of the "right to pursue happiness." Taxation is a justified measure insomuch as it provides for the protection of individual rights and for the general welfare.

In any event, you haven't answered my previous question. Why should your boss not be entitled to "pursue happiness" by firing you? Why should your happiness take precedence over his?
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Pestilence Comes Out of Retirement
Beef
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« Reply #37 on: August 17, 2005, 08:04:38 pm »

In any event, the notion of a so-called "right to pursue happiness" is rather arbitrary. If it exists, it does not override another person's right to property.
Well, by that logic we should have no tax whatsoever.
No, not so. The power to tax is absolutely independent of the "right to pursue happiness." Taxation is a justified measure insomuch as it provides for the protection of individual rights and for the general welfare.

In any event, you haven't answered my previous question. Why should your boss not be entitled to "pursue happiness" by firing you? Why should your happiness take precedence over his?

I think you are twisting my original point and trying to get me to defend a straw man.  Of course a company should be able to fire you, or lay you off.  A company has to stay competitive; stay profitable. 

However...

When there is too loose of a state grip on economic activities, the forces of big money and large corporations naturally work to crush the little man.  People lose the ability to gain a fair living through honest work.  And because we've opened the floodgates of globalism, we're competing on an unfair footing with foreign nations with a drastically different business environment and living conditions from our own.

We have a right to have some amount of control of our own lives and our own destinies.  And runaway anarcho-capitalism is taking that freedom away from us.

What's the difference between government taking away our freedom, and Big Business taking away our freedom?  None, I say!
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Emsworth
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« Reply #38 on: August 17, 2005, 08:10:46 pm »

When there is too loose of a state grip on economic activities, the forces of big money and large corporations naturally work to crush the little man.  People lose the ability to gain a fair living through honest work.
I dispute that point. But, let us accept it for the sake of argument.

The government does not owe anyone a living. The government exist solely to protect and promote the rights and freedoms of the people; it does not exist to give them handouts, whether directly in the form of money or indirectly in the form of excessive regulation.

Another important point is that everyone's freedoms must be equally protected. I see no justification for protecting the worker more than the business owner. On the contrary, both must be equally protected; socialism does not do so.

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At the risk of seeming harsh, so what? Ultimately, the company is doing what it is supposed to do: achieve a profit. It is not responsible for your welfare, nor should it be.

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A rather convenient argument, no?

But I ask: if you should be able to control your own life and destiny, why should the business owner not be able to do the same? Why should his so-called right to control his destiny be sacrificed to help you?

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There is an enormous difference. The government is obliged to protect your freedom; the business must respect it, but it need not protect it.

In any event, businesses aren't taking anybody's freedoms away. If anything, it is the freedom of the business owners that is being trampled.
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