Even the dead are fleeing Detroit

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Isn't that museum actually in Dearborn?

[Virginian87]

The fact is that Detroit is a horrible place to live or even visit.

There are plenty of interesting places to visit in Detroit, including (but not limited to) the Henry Ford Museum, which houses hundreds of important items in American history - like the chair Lincoln was shot in - and Greenfield Village, which takes visitors on a tour through Detroit's history of car manufacturing. Downtown is relatively safe. You can find some of the best restaurants in the country, especially if you're fond of Chinese and Thai. The Cranbrook Institute of Science is one of the most fascinating places in the entire world.

You are ill-informed.

I hear Detroit has some good Greek food.  Cashcow, did you ever go to Red Wings or Tigers games?

[Cashcow]

Isn't that museum actually in Dearborn?

Yeah, but it's pretty much right on the border, so you'll be spending time in Detroit if you visit.

@Virginian: Yes, there is a significant presence of Greek Food and culture. SE Michigan may be segregated, but that doesn't keep diversity out of Detroit when it comes to business and food. I am a Red Wings fan and used to go to their games all the time.

Edit: Speaking of business, Detroit is a good place to work. The Renaissance Center has been called "a city within a city" and one of the highest-quality office buildings in the nation. My father worked in downtown Detroit for almost twenty years without any problems. He was Rosa Parks' cardiologist.

[Virginian87]

Isn't that museum actually in Dearborn?

Yeah, but it's pretty much right on the border, so you'll be spending time in Detroit if you visit.

@Virginian: Yes, there is a significant presence of Greek Food and culture. SE Michigan may be segregated, but that doesn't keep diversity out of Detroit when it comes to business and food. I am a Red Wings fan and used to go to their games all the time.

Edit: Speaking of business, Detroit is a good place to work. The Renaissance Center has been called "a city within a city" and one of the highest-quality office buildings in the nation. My father worked in downtown Detroit for almost twenty years without any problems. He was Rosa Parks' cardiologist.

I've heard good things about Ren-Cen.  Ford Field also looks like a nice downtown stadium.

[danwxman]

Actually, the suburbs of Detroit are horrible as well.

Location:     Harrisburg, PA

Thanks for the input

Selfishness of the suburbanites has destroyed Detroit...anybody can see that.

I really don't agree.  The social dysfunction of a large segment of Detroit's population, coupled with the liberal notion that others in the city should suffer the consequences of that dysfunction even if they did not share it, drove the functional population out of Detroit.

It is not selfishness but self-preservation.  It is no more selfish than removing a part of your body that has cancer so that the rest of the body can survive.  There's no way anybody with a choice should stay in such a living hell.  The people who engage in the type of behavior that make Detroit a living hell are squarely to blame for the problems, not "selfish" suburbanites who only want to live a decent life, and aren't doing any harm to anybody.

What drove out the functional part of Detroit? Well, they quite literally drove out. The car destroyed Detroit, much worse so then many other cities. A lot of the blame lies with the FEDERAL highway system. Look at some pictures of cities before and after the highways were built. The middle class didn't have to leave Detroit in the 50's and 60's...but the culture of the time taught them that they did.

I disagree that suburbanites aren't doing any harm...they are. I view it with a sense of responsibility. Is it really responsible to drive an SUV around a plush suburb where you will never need to go off-road and drive 50 miles to work (as many now do)? Is it really responsible to relocate your business out of downtown and into a sprawly office park on top of some wetland?

The worst traffic in this country isn't in the cities anymore...it's in the suburbs. They are ruining our country and our environment.

But I understand we have freedom in this country. I just wish people, and politicans, would have more responsibility. I don't know how to fix Detroit, but the first thing I would do is create a functional public transportation system, possibly with light or heavy rail. But the damage has already been done to Southeast Michigan and I don't know if it can be repaired.

Dazzleman, I don't know if you live in an area that is seeing an explosion in suburban growth...but if you did...you would see how many problems it creates. You blamed liberal policies...but I blame conservative "pro-growth" policies for destroying much of the beautiful countryside in my area.

[J. J.]

You know, I have friends in the Francisville section of North Philly.  It has been "terrible" since the late 1950's when it was a mostly Black neighborhood.  Tadaya vacant lot of about 15 by 40 feet is selling for $80,000.

So much for "them Black folks" ruining the neighborhood.

[dazzleman]

What drove out the functional part of Detroit? Well, they quite literally drove out. The car destroyed Detroit, much worse so then many other cities. A lot of the blame lies with the FEDERAL highway system. Look at some pictures of cities before and after the highways were built. The middle class didn't have to leave Detroit in the 50's and 60's...but the culture of the time taught them that they did.

I disagree that suburbanites aren't doing any harm...they are. I view it with a sense of responsibility. Is it really responsible to drive an SUV around a plush suburb where you will never need to go off-road and drive 50 miles to work (as many now do)? Is it really responsible to relocate your business out of downtown and into a sprawly office park on top of some wetland?

The worst traffic in this country isn't in the cities anymore...it's in the suburbs. They are ruining our country and our environment.

But I understand we have freedom in this country. I just wish people, and politicans, would have more responsibility. I don't know how to fix Detroit, but the first thing I would do is create a functional public transportation system, possibly with light or heavy rail. But the damage has already been done to Southeast Michigan and I don't know if it can be repaired.

Dazzleman, I don't know if you live in an area that is seeing an explosion in suburban growth...but if you did...you would see how many problems it creates. You blamed liberal policies...but I blame conservative "pro-growth" policies for destroying much of the beautiful countryside in my area.

You're really talking about a different issue here.  You're criticizing suburban areas in general, not just blaming them for destroying cities because they have some vague responsibility to stay and endure muggings, murders, high taxes, etc.

I don't disagree with you about the problem of overdevelopment.  I live in a very nice but fully developed suburban area.  I don't drive a big SUV because I agree with you that's it's an irresponsible waste to drive a car like that when you don't need to.  We have terrible traffic problems, but overall it's a great area.

I don't have an answer to the problem of overdevelpment, other than to reduce or eliminate population growth.  Economically, we can't afford to do that because our economy is a pyramid that depends on each succeeding generation being larger than the one before it.  If that doesn't hold true, we'd have major economic problems.

I think the cities are going to come back at some point.  The big stumbling block to the cities coming back is education.  In my state, there is a well-intentioned but idiotic racial balancing law, which says that within a school district (itself an arbitrary construct), there must be relatively even distribution of "minorities," which are defined basically as anybody a shade darker than I am, and I'm pretty light.  Aside from the practical and moral problems involved with categorizing everybody by ethnicity and race, which we really should be getting away from, this takes away from any district with a multi-racial population the ability to have neighborhood schools, and effectively requires that kids from good neighborhoods go to school in violent neighborhoods on the other side of town.

The result of this law is that the middle class fled the cities, and fled any area with a multi-racial population.  This decimated the cities, and created a supply and demand situation whereby the lily white suburbs have very high housing prices and the cities are much cheaper because nobody wants them.  The end result is that racial separation is more deeply entrenched than before the law was passed.  If this law were repealed and enclaves with good schools could be formed in cities, it would be a huge boost to urban development.  Of course, that will never happen.

There has been a sort of partial answer to the problem if you look at the lot sizes for new houses that are being built.  Back in the 1950s or so, the houses were built with very large lot sizes, but today, because land costs are so high, houses are being built with very small lot sizes.  This creates something closer to an urban density, which ultimately uses less land for the same amount of people.

I think you're more or less right about overdevelopment, but wrong to blame suburbanites for all these problems.  The fact is that cities in their current state are largely unlivable for those with kids who want to give them a proper education and upbringing, and they have no choice but to go to the suburbs.  If we change the range of choices, some or many may choose more urban living that takes up less space.

[dazzleman]

The fact is that Detroit is a horrible place to live or even visit.

There are plenty of interesting places to visit in Detroit, including (but not limited to) the Henry Ford Museum, which houses hundreds of important items in American history - like the chair Lincoln was shot in - and Greenfield Village, which takes visitors on a tour through Detroit's history of car manufacturing. Downtown is relatively safe. You can find some of the best restaurants in the country, especially if you're fond of Chinese and Thai. The Cranbrook Institute of Science is one of the most fascinating places in the entire world.

You are ill-informed.

Well, maybe I went a bit too far.  I believe you if you say there are interesting things to visit there.  I stand corrected.

But I still think, based upon what I've heard, that it is a hell on earth in which to live.

[Cashcow]

The fact is that Detroit is a horrible place to live or even visit.

There are plenty of interesting places to visit in Detroit, including (but not limited to) the Henry Ford Museum, which houses hundreds of important items in American history - like the chair Lincoln was shot in - and Greenfield Village, which takes visitors on a tour through Detroit's history of car manufacturing. Downtown is relatively safe. You can find some of the best restaurants in the country, especially if you're fond of Chinese and Thai. The Cranbrook Institute of Science is one of the most fascinating places in the entire world.

You are ill-informed.

Well, maybe I went a bit too far.  I believe you if you say there are interesting things to visit there.  I stand corrected.

But I still think, based upon what I've heard, that it is a hell on earth in which to live.

It is a terrible place to live. I'd rather live in the Bronx. However, contrary to whatever bullshit danwxman is currently spitting out, the suburbs are wonderful; best quality of life in the midwest, maybe.

Four of America's safest cities are in Southeast Michigan

[dazzleman]

It is a terrible place to live. I'd rather live in the Bronx. However, contrary to whatever bullshit danwxman is currently spitting out, the suburbs are wonderful; best quality of life in the midwest, maybe.

Four of America's safest cities are in Southeast Michigan

The Bronx sucks, but I'd rather live there too than Detroit.

Danwxman is not totally wrong, but he's really only looking at one side of the ledger, in my opinion.  His opinions are a little too absolute, and condemnatory of those who are just looking for a decent life.  I wonder why he doesn't condemn the residents of Detroit whose horrific behavior has made the city a hell on earth.  If they behaved differently, the suburbanites may have no problem moving into the city.

[Cashcow]

I hope you're right that the cities will come back at some point, but I'm not sure why you believe that. Living conditions in almost every American city have been worsening for decades. Detroit peaked at nearly 2 million... in 1950?

[Virginian87]

I hope you're right that the cities will come back at some point, but I'm not sure why you believe that. Living conditions in almost every American city have been worsening for decades. Detroit peaked at nearly 2 million... in 1950?

Yes, it was once the 4th-largest city in the country.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I'm I the only one who finds Danwxman's claim that the car destroyed Detriot amusingly ironic?

[Virginian87]

I'm I the only one who finds Danwxman's claim that the car destroyed Detriot amusingly ironic?

One could say that the advent of the automobile helped grow and destroy the city at the same time.  It helped the suburbs grow and allowed for more people to move to the cities' metropolitan areas from smaller towns.  At the same time, it allowed people to move out of the inner city and destroyed some of the cities' public transportation systems.  Remember streetcars?  Los Angeles was once blanketed by Pacific Electric, which got replaced by freeways.  The streetcars were more efficient and did not pollute nearly as much.  Perhaps they were jsut ahead of their time, since cities across the US are starting to build or have built light-rail systems.  Portland, Ore. and Baltimore have light rail, and Tampa, and Dallas have started light-rail systems.  I hear Detroit has an idea for a system as well.  It could help reinvigorate downtown.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Remember streetcars?  Los Angeles was once blanketed by Pacific Electric, which got replaced by freeways.  The streetcars were more efficient and did not pollute nearly as much.  Perhaps they were jsut ahead of their time, since cities across the US are starting to build or have built light-rail systems.  Portland, Ore. and Baltimore have light rail, and Tampa, and Dallas have started light-rail systems.  I hear Detroit has an idea for a system as well.  It could help reinvigorate downtown.

Pretty much all U.S cities used to have good public transport systems (early suburbanisation, especially in L.A, was actually driven by public transport. Population centres in that area generally follow the areas where the old Pacific Electric lines ran. Horrible irony; the L.A Freeways were built to try to bring business and population back to the city centre... boy did that backfire) but a conglomorate of car, oil and rubber companies (including General Motors) illegal bought up all the streetcar etc. lines and turned them into bus routes.

[Virginian87]

Remember streetcars?  Los Angeles was once blanketed by Pacific Electric, which got replaced by freeways.  The streetcars were more efficient and did not pollute nearly as much.  Perhaps they were jsut ahead of their time, since cities across the US are starting to build or have built light-rail systems.  Portland, Ore. and Baltimore have light rail, and Tampa, and Dallas have started light-rail systems.  I hear Detroit has an idea for a system as well.  It could help reinvigorate downtown.

Pretty much all U.S cities used to have good public transport systems (early suburbanisation, especially in L.A, was actually driven by public transport. Population centres in that area generally follow the areas where the old Pacific Electric lines ran. Horrible irony; the L.A Freeways were built to try to bring business and population back to the city centre... boy did that backfire) but a conglomorate of car, oil and rubber companies (including General Motors) illegal bought up all the streetcar etc. lines and turned them into bus routes.

I guess if we tried to bring back good public transportation, some would claim that we're trying to turn the country into a welfare state.

[Cashcow]

A nice neighborhood in Detroit:



Maybe all hope's not lost.

[danwxman]

I hope you're right that the cities will come back at some point, but I'm not sure why you believe that. Living conditions in almost every American city have been worsening for decades. Detroit peaked at nearly 2 million... in 1950?

Not true. I would say the majority of American cities are becoming more liveable. Look at Philadelphia and Baltimore as prime examples. Both cities have a long way to go, but the residential market is booming.

[Cashcow]

I hope you're right that the cities will come back at some point, but I'm not sure why you believe that. Living conditions in almost every American city have been worsening for decades. Detroit peaked at nearly 2 million... in 1950?

Not true. I would say the majority of American cities are becoming more liveable. Look at Philadelphia and Baltimore as prime examples. Both cities have a long way to go, but the residential market is booming.

Then explain "white flight."

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Gentrified areas don't represent most of a city

[Cashcow]

I didn't even know that place existed, though. It's pretty big.

[ilikeverin]

I disagree that suburbanites aren't doing any harm...they are.

Thanks

[dazzleman]

I hope you're right that the cities will come back at some point, but I'm not sure why you believe that. Living conditions in almost every American city have been worsening for decades. Detroit peaked at nearly 2 million... in 1950?

Living conditions in cities worsened considerably in the second half of the twentieth century, for a variety of reasons.

But I think that everything is cyclical, and the cities will come back at some point.  There are certain advantages to urban living, especially with gasoline at $3 a gallon and headed higher.

I have no idea when that might happen.  It is already happening to some extent in some cities.   Generally, it happens with young professionals without kids, older people whose kids are grown, or people wealthy enough to pay for private schools.  The big stumbling block for the cities is that they can't have good schools under current social conditions, and under current political conditions, it's not really permissible to isolate the dysfunctional element.  This make the whole system bad, and keeps families out of the cities.

[danwxman]

I hope you're right that the cities will come back at some point, but I'm not sure why you believe that. Living conditions in almost every American city have been worsening for decades. Detroit peaked at nearly 2 million... in 1950?

Not true. I would say the majority of American cities are becoming more liveable. Look at Philadelphia and Baltimore as prime examples. Both cities have a long way to go, but the residential market is booming.

Then explain "white flight."

I already did. White flight doesn't exist in the cities anymore, it's black flight.

[Alcon]

I hope you're right that the cities will come back at some point, but I'm not sure why you believe that. Living conditions in almost every American city have been worsening for decades. Detroit peaked at nearly 2 million... in 1950?

Not true. I would say the majority of American cities are becoming more liveable. Look at Philadelphia and Baltimore as prime examples. Both cities have a long way to go, but the residential market is booming.

Then explain "white flight."

I already did. White flight doesn't exist in the cities anymore, it's black flight.

Umm...?