Original Sin

[KEmperor]

God is a jeaus god.

Presuming you meant 'jealous' there, doesn't that mean God is committing one of the seven deadly sins right there?

It also begs the question of who an all-powerful being could possibly be jealous of.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

committing one of the seven deadly sins right there?

IIRC the concept of "seven deadly sins" was the work of either St Augustine or St Thomas Aquinus not a Biblical concept.

[Emsworth]

committing one of the seven deadly sins right there?

IIRC the concept of "seven deadly sins" was the work of either St Augustine or St Thomas Aquinus not a Biblical concept.

IIRC, Pope Gregory the Great was responsible for ranking the seven deadly sins, which were originally proposed by some obscure Greek monk. But, as Gregory was presumably speaking ex cathedra...

[Filuwaúrdjan]

IIRC, Pope Gregory the Great was responsible for ranking the seven deadly sins, which were originally proposed by some obscure Greek monk.

You're better at this sort of obscure stuff than I am, so I'll believe you

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Er... that means "from his Chair", right?

[ilikeverin]

Evagrius of Pontius thought up a list of 8, which was then modified by St. Gregory.  Obviously, St. Greg whittled the list down to 7.

Aquinas later countered the listing of sins from 'worst' to 'least bad' (that St. Greg had done)

[Joe Kakistocracy]

Well regardless of who thought up the sins, it doesn't really affect Josh's statement about God being 'jealous'.  And as KEmperor said, I too would love to know exactly what he's jealous of.  The other gods perhaps?  You know, the ones that aren't supposed to exist?

[A18]

so that, all of humanity is ethically debilitated, and powerless to rehabilitate themselves, unless rescued by God.

Just seems to contradict free will to me.

Free will is making your own decisions. It does not mean that you are not influenced by anything.

It's mainly the 'powerless to rehabilitate themselves' part, less the God part.

You're pretty out there if you really believe people can control all their tendencies and personality traits.

[A18]

Well regardless of who thought up the sins, it doesn't really affect Josh's statement about God being 'jealous'. And as KEmperor said, I too would love to know exactly what he's jealous of. The other gods perhaps? You know, the ones that aren't supposed to exist?

Two types of jealousy. One is, you have something that I want. The other is, I have something that I'm not going to share.

[Emsworth]

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Yes. If he was speaking ex cathedra, then whatever he said was infallible, according to the Catholic Church.

[KEmperor]

Well regardless of who thought up the sins, it doesn't really affect Josh's statement about God being 'jealous'. And as KEmperor said, I too would love to know exactly what he's jealous of. The other gods perhaps? You know, the ones that aren't supposed to exist?

Two types of jealousy. One is, you have something that I want. The other is, I have something that I'm not going to share.

That's not jealousy, that's avarice/greed.  Regardless, share with who?

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

The sin was not the disobedience itself, the sin was the result of the disobedience.

Huh?

[A18]

Idols, obviously.

[12th Doctor]

No, because I don't believe in the Creation story literally (how does all of humanity descend from only two people? There'd be quite a lot of inbreeding)

The creation story is not meant to be taking literally, it is meant to teach a lesson.  On of those lessons is the inherent sinfulness of humanity.  That is original sin.  So, yes, I believe in original sin, because I believe in the inherent sinfulness of humanity.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

The sin was not the disobedience itself, the sin was the result of the disobedience.

I think you are getting confused between sin and the sinful nature.

Sin is, by definition, the act of disobedience:  1st John 3:4 "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."

The first sin produced a sinful nature, which we all inherited.

[Blue Rectangle]

The sin was not the disobedience itself, the sin was the result of the disobedience.

Huh?

To quote wiki:

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Adam and Eve were not capable of immoral action when they ate the fruit, because they did not yet have knowledge of good and evil.  Their action was only sin because of the second aspect of sin: they became alienated from God as the natural result of their actions.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Adam and Eve were not capable of immoral action when they ate the fruit, because they did not yet have knowledge of good and evil.

And exactly where in the bible is a foreknowledge of good and evil required before sin can occur?

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 Their action was only sin because of the second aspect of sin: they became alienated from God as the natural result of their actions.

I seriously hope you've just made this up on your own; I hope a church isn't teaching this.  For the bible explicitly states that Adam sinned when he broke God's commandment:

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

[Blue Rectangle]

Adam and Eve were not capable of immoral action when they ate the fruit, because they did not yet have knowledge of good and evil.

And exactly where in the bible is a foreknowledge of good and evil required before sin can occur?

It doesn't.  But the capacity for moral judgment is a prerequisite for moral action.

Going back to the Church's definition of sin, sin is both an immoral action and the separation of oneself from God.  If you are incapable of moral action, then you can still sin by separating yourself from God.

Their action was only sin because of the second aspect of sin: they became alienated from God as the natural result of their actions.

I seriously hope you've just made this up on your own; I hope a church isn't teaching this.  For the bible explicitly states that Adam sinned when he broke God's commandment:

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

By breaking God's command, Adam separated himself from God and thus sinned.  Adam did not sin through immoral action.

What would have happened if God had neglected to command Adam not to eat from the tree?  Would Adam still gain knowledge of good and evil?  Would God then be compelled to throw him out of the Garden?  Would Adam, and all his descendents, still be tainted?  Yes, yes and yes.

Adam sinned by breaking God's command, but he could have sinned even if he hadn't (as in the above example).  Your own quote says that others sinned without breaking a command.

I don't see original sin as simply a punishment for my ancestors' lawbreaking.  Such a thing strikes me as incredibly unjust, as it does other posters.

[Hitchabrut]

In simpler terms, for you who have trouble understanding the paragraph, isn't it easier to go insane, shoot people, rape, pillage, and let your evil intent take control of you, like a certain o_ _ _o, or to exhibit true self restraint?

[Rob]

No, of course.

[opebo]

What utter nonsense.

[bullmoose88]

Personally I don't really care about the concept...

No person who has walked this earth...save maybe Christ Himself...is perfect, nor can be unable to sin. So the possibility that we may be guilty before we even start really isn't relevant to me.

We're all damned anyway...some more than others...

I personally have a first class ticket on the concorde to hell...once its not grounded anymore.

[Emsworth]

An interesting theological question is, was the Virgin Mary tainted by the original sin? I personally have seen no justification in the Bible for the assertion, although the Catholic Church seems to disagree.

[??????????]

Original sin is doctrinal fiction.

[Gabu]

An interesting question I've had is the following: I've always heard that Adam's action in disobeying God caused this moral and ethical distortion in every human afterwards, but it seems to me that, given that Adam disobeyed God, the human race was already inclined in that direction anyway, so what did Adam's action actually change?

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

And exactly where in the bible is a foreknowledge of good and evil required before sin can occur?

It doesn't.  But the capacity for moral judgment is a prerequisite for moral action.

Where in the bible does it say Adam lacked moral judgment prior to eating from the tree?  God explicitly told Adam:  

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree of the garden, 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for on the day you eat from it, you will certainly die."  (Gen 2:16-17)

Sorry, I don't see anything about Adam lacking moral judgment.  Heck the scripture even says that Adam was NOT deceived by the serpent.  So Adam at least had the moral judgment not to be swayed by the immoral devil!

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Why are you all making this so difficult, when the story is really quite simply?  

1 - God told Adam not to eat from the tree because there were certain things God didn't want Adam to know.  (Just like God doesn't want me to know what it is like to have homosexual sex.)
2 - Adam, NOT being deceived by the devil, knowingly sinned when he broke God's command.
3 - As a result of that one sin, Adam's took on a sinful nature and passed it onto the rest of us.

Period.  End of story!

Heck the story of Adam's sin and it consequences on us are painstakingly spelled out in detail in the New Testament.  Why don't you let the bible speak for itself?  Why do you force yourself to go off track by adding words to it?

Aren't we still commanded not to gain knowledge of evil?

Rom 16:19 I want you to be wise about what is good, yet innocent about what is evil.

1Cor 14:20 Brethren, do not be children in your thinking; yet in evil be infants, but in your thinking be mature.

Rev 2:24 [Those] who have not known the deep things of Satan, as they call them--I place no other burden on you.