Original Sin

[Frodo]

Most of us should know what 'original sin' is already, but for those who don't already know, here is an explanation:

Original sin is the religious doctrine, shared in one form or another by most Christian denominations, which holds that human nature is morally and ethically distorted due to the disobedience of mankind's earliest parents to the revealed will of God. In the Bible, the first human transgression of God's command (i.e. the original sin) is described as the sin of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden (called "the Fall"). The doctrine holds that every person born into the world is tainted by the wrong-doing of the first ancestors, confused because they were deceived, corrupted because they were ruined, fearful of death because they were punished, etc.; so that, all of humanity is ethically debilitated, and powerless to rehabilitate themselves, unless rescued by God.

source

[Richard]

Yes.

[John Dibble]

No, I believe we choose to be who we are.

[Richard]

No, I believe we choose to be who we are.

I believe we choose our path too.  The two issues are not mutually exclusive.

[John Dibble]

No, I believe we choose to be who we are.

I believe we choose our path too.  The two issues are not mutually exclusive.

I disagree, because of the following part:

so that, all of humanity is ethically debilitated, and powerless to rehabilitate themselves, unless rescued by God.

Just seems to contradict free will to me.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Most of us should know what 'original sin' is already, but for those who don't already know, here is an explanation:

Original sin is the religious doctrine, shared in one form or another by most Christian denominations, which holds that human nature is morally and ethically distorted due to the disobedience of mankind's earliest parents to the revealed will of God. In the Bible, the first human transgression of God's command (i.e. the original sin) is described as the sin of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden (called "the Fall"). The doctrine holds that every person born into the world is tainted by the wrong-doing of the first ancestors, confused because they were deceived, corrupted because they were ruined, fearful of death because they were punished, etc.; so that, all of humanity is ethically debilitated, and powerless to rehabilitate themselves, unless rescued by God.

source

I don't believe the "born tainted" part.  I do not believe babies are born "tainted" by their parents sin.  I do however believe everyone is born with a sinful nature on account of Adam and Eves actions.

[A18]

so that, all of humanity is ethically debilitated, and powerless to rehabilitate themselves, unless rescued by God.

Just seems to contradict free will to me.

Free will is making your own decisions. It does not mean that you are not influenced by anything.

[John Dibble]

so that, all of humanity is ethically debilitated, and powerless to rehabilitate themselves, unless rescued by God.

Just seems to contradict free will to me.

Free will is making your own decisions. It does not mean that you are not influenced by anything.

It's mainly the 'powerless to rehabilitate themselves' part, less the God part.

[ilikeverin]

No, that sounds unfair (heck, it is unfair)

[falling apart like the ashes of American flags]

No, because I don't believe in the Creation story literally (how does all of humanity descend from only two people? There'd be quite a lot of inbreeding)

[Blue Rectangle]

so that, all of humanity is ethically debilitated, and powerless to rehabilitate themselves, unless rescued by God.

Just seems to contradict free will to me.

Me too.  This definition is a little skewed.  That statement is essentially Calvinist.  Calvin affirmed Augustine's view on predestination (as did Luther).  Ironically, the Reformation churches seem to cling more strongly to Augustinian philosophy than the Catholic Church.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

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The Church therefore lies between the two extremes.  The Catechism clearly teaches that man has free will, but that Adam's sin "wounded" man.

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Original sin is human nature; it is an "inclination to evil".  Baptism "erases original sin", but man winds up sinning anyway after baptism.  This sounds to me very close to Pelagius' "heresy".

Note that the wiki article on original sin does a very poor job of describing the Catholic view.

[Richard]

so that, all of humanity is ethically debilitated, and powerless to rehabilitate themselves, unless rescued by God.

Just seems to contradict free will to me.

That refers to your ability to change your heart, not your mind, and your ability to get into heaven by your own power.

[Richard]

Baptism "erases original sin"

Um, NO?  Where'd you get that?

[John Dibble]

so that, all of humanity is ethically debilitated, and powerless to rehabilitate themselves, unless rescued by God.

Just seems to contradict free will to me.

That refers to your ability to change your heart, not your mind, and your ability to get into heaven by your own power.

Like I said, contradicts free will. Oh, and the heart is an organ that has nothing to do with who you are, it simply pumps blood - the mind on the other hand IS what contains your conciousness, and either I control it or I don't, no two ways about it.

[Richard]

so that, all of humanity is ethically debilitated, and powerless to rehabilitate themselves, unless rescued by God.

Just seems to contradict free will to me.

That refers to your ability to change your heart, not your mind, and your ability to get into heaven by your own power.

Like I said, contradicts free will.

No.  You can have the free will to float, but no amount of you trying to do so will make it happen.  There is no contradiction here.

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Are you a f'ing idiot?  Can you comprehend the meaning of "heart" as it is used in a way that does NOT mean pumping blood?

The human heart was born with evil in it.  No amount of free will can change that.  You can choose a course of action in life that will be mostly good, but it will never make your heart "good" or free of that blemish.  You will always commit wrongs in the future, no matter how good you are.

To be free of the original sin is to be without sin, something which is not possible even by choice.  Just like my walking on air example.  You can decide to be good all you want, but you'll still be committing sins.  Perhaps at a much reduced rate, but you'll still be doing wrongs; that cannot be removed from you.

[Blue Rectangle]

Baptism "erases original sin"

Um, NO?  Where'd you get that?

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which was quoted directly before that statement.

BRTD:
A literal interpretation of Genesis is not a requirement for believing in original sin.  Catholics, for example, have much to say about original sin, though they are not generally known as strict literalists.

[Joe Kakistocracy]

Of course I don't believe in it.  Why should I feel guilty because of what two fictional characters did wrong?

[John Dibble]

so that, all of humanity is ethically debilitated, and powerless to rehabilitate themselves, unless rescued by God.

Just seems to contradict free will to me.

That refers to your ability to change your heart, not your mind, and your ability to get into heaven by your own power.

Like I said, contradicts free will.

No.  You can have the free will to float, but no amount of you trying to do so will make it happen.  There is no contradiction here.

Moot comparison.

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Are you a f'ing idiot?  Can you comprehend the meaning of "heart" as it is used in a way that does NOT mean pumping blood?

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No it isn't, it's born with a clean slate.[/quote]

[Richard]

If human nature is naturally good, we would not have wars all the time.  We wouldn't have murderers and rapists.  We would be perfect.

Guess what?  We're not.

[KEmperor]

What crap.  Even if I were to accept the biblical creation story (and that's a big if), how the hell would I or anyone else alive today be responsible for the actions of one of my ancestors from thousands of years ago?

[Richard]

how the hell would I or anyone else alive today be responsible for the actions of one of my ancestors from thousands of years ago?

You're not.  No one said you are responsible for that.

[John Dibble]

If human nature is naturally good, we would not have wars all the time.  We wouldn't have murderers and rapists.  We would be perfect.

Guess what?  We're not.

I didn't say we're inherently good, I said we're born with a clean slate, neither good nor evil.

If we are inherently evil, then babies are evil. Do you think babies are evil, Richius?

[Blue Rectangle]

how the hell would I or anyone else alive today be responsible for the actions of one of my ancestors from thousands of years ago?

You're not.  No one said you are responsible for that.

That's right.  Original sin is not a personal sin.  A personal sin is an action (or innaction) that further separates you from God.  Original sin is the natural separation from God of all humans and is simply a part of human nature.  It is our inability to be morally perfect.

[KEmperor]

how the hell would I or anyone else alive today be responsible for the actions of one of my ancestors from thousands of years ago?

You're not.  No one said you are responsible for that.

The doctrine of "Original Sin" does.  I quote from the first post in the thread:

"The doctrine holds that every person born into the world is tainted by the wrong-doing of the first ancestors"

Therefore, this doctrine claims that I(along with every other human being) am somehow responsible for something my ancestor did.

[Joe Kakistocracy]

It's no wonder I and others like me pay no attention to Christianity any more.  What a miserable religion.