Bayh: Democrats Must Establish Credibility on National Security First

[ATFFL]

He is talking about pulling all troops out of Iraq because we cannot win.

To be exact, he is talking about pulling troops out of Iraq within two years, which is exactly what the Bush administration is going to do. In fact, they're going to start pulling troops out in the next few months.

So where do Dean and the Bush administration differ?

Well, Bush thinks we can win and will not pull the troops out until local replacements are ready.

Dean thinks we are going to lose and keeping troops there is a mistake, yet would do so for two more years anyway.  If he thinks keeping troops there will only get them killed for no return, why does he not want to pull them all out right away?

[TheresNoMoney]

Dean thinks we are going to lose and keeping troops there is a mistake, yet would do so for two more years anyway.

If your definition of "winning" the war is Iraq having a stable democracy with no violence, than we have no chance to win.  There is going to be violence and probably civil war no matter what. I believe the Bush administration knows this (although they won't say so), and that's why they're going to start pulling out troops soon as well. There's not all that much more we can do there.

If he thinks keeping troops there will only get them killed for no return, why does he not want to pull them all out right away?

Probably because he thinks that the overall damage will be less if we stick in a little longera and he doesn't want an immediate pullout. However, I can't speak for him.

[ATFFL]

Dean thinks we are going to lose and keeping troops there is a mistake, yet would do so for two more years anyway.

If your definition of "winning" the war is Iraq having a stable democracy with no violence, than we have no chance to win.  There is going to be violence and probably civil war no matter what. I believe the Bush administration knows this (although they won't say so), and that's why they're going to start pulling out troops soon as well. There's not all that much more we can do there.

No violence is a ludicrous aim.  We have violence.  France had major riots for weeks. 

If he thinks keeping troops there will only get them killed for no return, why does he not want to pull them all out right away?

Probably because he thinks that the overall damage will be less if we stick in a little longera and he doesn't want an immediate pullout. However, I can't speak for him.

But you can speak for why Bush is going to start drawing back forces?

If victory is impossible, why leave American troops there?  Would the American people accept a Democrat resolution saying that victory is impossible, we cannot win, but we will stay a while longer, letting our sons and daughters die for a lost cause, because it might make things a bit better?

[TheresNoMoney]

But you can speak for why Bush is going to start drawing back forces?

I'm not speaking for him, I'm merely offering my opinion.

If victory is impossible, why leave American troops there?

First off, I'd like you to define victory. And secondly to answer your question, perhaps they want to leave troops there to try to make the transition go more smoothly?? Again, I can't answer this definitively. A phased withdrawal would likely be better than an immediate withdrawal.

Would the American people accept a Democrat resolution saying that victory is impossible, we cannot win, but we will stay a while longer, letting our sons and daughters die for a lost cause, because it might make things a bit better?

Obviously not.

[ATFFL]

If victory is impossible, why leave American troops there?

First off, I'd like you to define victory. And secondly to answer your question, perhaps they want to leave troops there to try to make the transition go more smoothly?? Again, I can't answer this definitively. A phased withdrawal would likely be better than an immediate withdrawal.

Victory:  Leaving a democratically elected government in charge of a country with adequate security forces, a functioning economy, established court system, and basic government services in place.

Would the American people accept a Democrat resolution saying that victory is impossible, we cannot win, but we will stay a while longer, letting our sons and daughters die for a lost cause, because it might make things a bit better?

Obviously not.
[/quote]

That is what Dean is saying is happening.  That the Dems are coming together on that position.  It is a position that is obviously not a winner with the American people.

[TheresNoMoney]

Victory:  Leaving a democratically elected government in charge of a country with adequate security forces, a functioning economy, established court system, and basic government services in place.

I think you're going to have to lower your standards fairly significantly on this one.

That is what Dean is saying is happening.  That the Dems are coming together on that position.  It is a position that is obviously not a winner with the American people.

I think the Democrats will make the best out of a bad situation and that it will not be exactly the same as what Dean is describing:

"I think we need a strategic redeployment over a period of two years," Dean said. "Bring the 80,000 National Guard and Reserve troops home immediately. They don't belong in a conflict like this anyway. We ought to have a redeployment to Afghanistan of 20,000 troops, we don't have enough troops to do the job there and its a place where we are welcome. And we need a force in the Middle East, not in Iraq but in a friendly neighboring country to fight (terrorist leader Musab) Zarqawi, who came to Iraq after this invasion. We've got to get the target off the backs of American troops.

Dean didn't specify which country the US forces would deploy to, but he said he would like to see the entire process completed within two years. He said the Democrat proposal is not a 'withdrawal,' but rather a 'strategic redeployment' of U.S. forces.

"The White House wants us to have a permanent commitment to Iraq. This is an Iraqi problem. President Bush got rid of Saddam Hussein and that was a great thing, but that could have been done in a very different way. But now that we're there we need to figure out how to leave. 80% of Iraqis want us to leave, and it's their country."