France 2017: Results Thread
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ApatheticAustrian
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« Reply #925 on: April 30, 2017, 11:40:47 AM »

Since learning that Dupont would seemingly become PM under miss president, i looked into his stands a little bit....typical "anti-zionist" rhetoric.

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http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4955393,00.html

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RodPresident
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« Reply #926 on: April 30, 2017, 12:16:58 PM »

I can see MLP-NDA alliance as a kind of Cold War between the two. NDA wants to be a light version of MLP, the one who can win, while she wants to remain as main leader of far-right and exposed him in a "corrupt bargain" situation.
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Zinneke
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« Reply #927 on: April 30, 2017, 12:18:52 PM »

Since learning that Dupont would seemingly become PM under miss president, i looked into his stands a little bit....typical "anti-zionist" rhetoric.

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http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4955393,00.html



How is this anti-Zionist rhetoric? He is saying black on white Israelis have the same legitimacy to the land as the Arabs.
He is actually adhering to Gaullist principles for once...

And also, this has nothing to do with his alliance with Panzergirl, nor with the revisionism and anti-semitism of the more extremist elements of the FN in past years.
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ApatheticAustrian
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« Reply #928 on: April 30, 2017, 12:55:41 PM »

How is this anti-Zionist rhetoric? He is saying black on white Israelis have the same legitimacy to the land as the Arabs.
He is actually adhering to Gaullist principles for once...

And also, this has nothing to do with his alliance with Panzergirl, nor with the revisionism and anti-semitism of the more extremist elements of the FN in past years.

1) i used those quotation marks for a reason.

2) i never suggested he changed his position or something, i just wrote i learned about his positions on this matter and - in fact - they are contrary to the "new right" ideology.

3) i wouldn't put hamas and bibi on the same level and i hate bibi and i think his positions are outdated inside of israel and inside the new-european-right.

it just seemed bollocks to me that while the le pen right is trying everything to court israel, she alliies with a guy who shares a most "centrish" or maybe even more critical position on israel's "foreign" policy.
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Vosem
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« Reply #929 on: April 30, 2017, 01:03:31 PM »

Just announced:

Dupont-Aignan would become Le Pen's PM, if she *somehow* wins.

The political death of Nicolas Dupont-Aignan. RIP

He got 5% in the first round, his best result yet. What else should we expect from him ? Becoming PM under Le Pen would be his career highlight and his best bet.

Anyway, it would be great to see a new Elabe poll. They were the best in round 1.

Well, Le Pen isn't going to win so he won't become Prime Minister and now everyone will associate him with the woefully unpopular Le Pen.

Trump wasn't supposed to win either.

Trump was not 20 points behind Clinton one week before the election. He was always within striking distance of her in a way that LePen has never been

True, but counterpoint: Clinton was careful not to do anything too stupid to blow it, to a fault maybe...but the scales were tipping back and forth until Comeyghazi flipped it.

Macron on the other hand has blown his lead a bit, making all sorts of rookie mistakes against someone more seasoned.
And he's still up by around 20 points.

It's a high ceiling for sure, but we haven't gotten to the debate and there's still plenty of time for Le Pen to clean house and/or Macron continuously blow it. On the other hand Le Pen could fail to clean house and Macron could grow into things.

Given how 60% of these  recent far-rights vs everyone else have gone (Brexit/U.S./Iceland vs Austria and Netherlands), the former seems likely to happen than the latter.

The far-right didn't win the 2016 Icelandic parliamentary elections. Maybe you mean another country? Anyway, I still don't see how Le Pen wins this unless there is a major terror attack + a major Macron scandal/gaffe. Fillon was plagued by scandals, his program was rather unpopular but he never dropped below 53% against Le Pen.

Fair enough, Iceland was a weird situation, and I didn't follow that one too closely. But I do remember the Centrist party got dumped, the Left as a whole faltered despite leading for most of the way, and the Right pulled through thanks to a splinter party [mixed up the reason for the splinter party to exist though].

I don't think she'll win it as things are, but I don't think it's gonna be a curb-stomper either.

Iceland if anything was a reverse example -- a populist (more left-populist than NF-types, but still) party had led the polls for two years before suddenly collapsing during the campaign and coming in third, with the traditional "mainstream right" party winning and a different establishment party (the traditionally small Greens) coming in second.
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« Reply #930 on: April 30, 2017, 01:08:35 PM »

Since learning that Dupont would seemingly become PM under miss president, i looked into his stands a little bit....typical "anti-zionist" rhetoric.

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http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4955393,00.html



How is this anti-Zionist rhetoric? He is saying black on white Israelis have the same legitimacy to the land as the Arabs.
He is actually adhering to Gaullist principles for once...

And also, this has nothing to do with his alliance with Panzergirl, nor with the revisionism and anti-semitism of the more extremist elements of the FN in past years.

Putting a democratic state and Hamas on the same level is definitely anti-zionist. Also, he's clearly opposing allowing Israel to defend itself.
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Zinneke
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« Reply #931 on: April 30, 2017, 01:11:37 PM »

How is this anti-Zionist rhetoric? He is saying black on white Israelis have the same legitimacy to the land as the Arabs.
He is actually adhering to Gaullist principles for once...

And also, this has nothing to do with his alliance with Panzergirl, nor with the revisionism and anti-semitism of the more extremist elements of the FN in past years.

1) i used those quotation marks for a reason.

2) i never suggested he changed his position or something, i just wrote i learned about his positions on this matter and - in fact - they are contrary to the "new right" ideology.

3) i wouldn't put hamas and bibi on the same level and i hate bibi and i think his positions are outdated inside of israel and inside the new-european-right.


1) and 2) ok I apologise, I thought you meant this was a classic example of anti-Semitism veiled as anti-Zionism, hence the quotation marks. I would call his stance quite mainstream for French politics. Only Sarkozy was more pro-Israel and remember his comments about Netenyahu.  

3) you are right but I don't see him mentioning the actors by name. He is saying the leaderships of both nations have failed them by escalating the conflict. Could easily be referring to Fatah, who are probably a more salient equivalent of Netenyahu.

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There is nothing New Right about the influential parts of the FN - only Fillipot is even close to incarnating a New Right feel. Most of the New Right feel you get from FN is part of the PR. New Right parties for example support a crackdown on "islamic culture" using the protection of gay rights. MMLP has just come out saying that she will repeal gay marriage.
https://twitter.com/BFMTV/status/858670866539970561

As for courting Israel, I need a source on that, I don't think Le Pen is or was ever pro-Israel...
http://www.jpost.com/Diaspora/Le-Pen-If-elected-French-Jews-will-have-to-renounce-Israeli-citizenship-481140
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Zinneke
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« Reply #932 on: April 30, 2017, 01:15:48 PM »

Putting a democratic state and Hamas on the same level is definitely anti-zionist. Also, he's clearly opposing allowing Israel to defend itself.

Source him referring to Hamas. Hamas is not the recognised leadership of PA, and only emerged in the 2000s. NDA is referring to both sets of leaderships, and he is criticising both of them.

And while your at it, post the death toll so everybody can evaluate what defending yourself constitutes in terms of collateral damage. Let's see your version of equity.
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DavidB.
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« Reply #933 on: April 30, 2017, 01:15:56 PM »

Yeah, French politicians are all garbage on Israel. NDA is hardly worse than Le Pen herself, with her "even-handed approach" (Macron is probably more pro-Israel than Le Pen). All this is caused by the French right's hardon for their imaginary alliance with the French-speaking Arab world, which is something that won't change no matter how many Bataclans there will be.

And while your at it, post the death toll so everybody can evaluate what defending yourself constitutes in terms of collateral damage.
Not our fault that we do our best to defend our citizens while the Palestinian leadership want a high death toll on their side so they can get more money from the international community to line their pockets.
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mvd10
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« Reply #934 on: April 30, 2017, 01:18:14 PM »

So the French right hates Muslims but they love the Arab world?
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Zinneke
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« Reply #935 on: April 30, 2017, 01:19:03 PM »

So the French right hates Muslims but they love the Arab world?

You know not all Arabs are Muslims right? And not all Muslims are Islamists?
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DavidB.
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« Reply #936 on: April 30, 2017, 01:19:30 PM »

So the French right hates Muslims but they love the Arab world?
They're notoriously schizophrenic, yes.
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Zinneke
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« Reply #937 on: April 30, 2017, 01:21:33 PM »

Yeah, French politicians are all garbage on Israel. NDA is hardly worse than Le Pen herself, with her "even-handed approach" (Macron is probably more pro-Israel than Le Pen). All this is caused by the French right's hardon for their imaginary alliance with the French-speaking Arab world, which is something that won't change no matter how many Bataclans there will be.

And while your at it, post the death toll so everybody can evaluate what defending yourself constitutes in terms of collateral damage.
Not our fault that we do our best to defend our citizens while the Palestinian leadership want a high death toll on their side so they can get more money from the international community to line their pockets.

I didn't realise the Dutch were involved in the operation...
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mvd10
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« Reply #938 on: April 30, 2017, 01:22:36 PM »

So the French right hates Muslims but they love the Arab world?

You know not all Arabs are Muslims right? And not all Muslims are Islamists?

It was meant as a joke btw.
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windjammer
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« Reply #939 on: April 30, 2017, 01:24:55 PM »

Anyway,
Nicolas Dupont Aignan isn't a bright politician, and this move is dumb by him, as expected.

Le Pen just made a political coup with him though.
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« Reply #940 on: April 30, 2017, 01:27:32 PM »
« Edited: April 30, 2017, 01:30:54 PM by Parrotguy »

Anyway,
Nicolas Dupont Aignan isn't a bright politician, and this move is dumb by him, as expected.

Le Pen just made a political coup with him though.

To be honest, politically, this move could be his only shot at an important position. It could just as likely destroy his dignity for the years to come, though.


And while your at it, post the death toll so everybody can evaluate what defending yourself constitutes in terms of collateral damage. Let's see your version of equity.

Death toll is no way to measure these things. You could just as easily argue that the war against ISIS is unjust with that logic. Anyway, this is not the thread to discuss Israel's right for self-defence, I'm sure it'll come up... quite a few times in the future.
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ApatheticAustrian
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« Reply #941 on: April 30, 2017, 01:32:08 PM »

@Rogier:

Noted! Smiley

Thanks for those links, interesting answer re: dual citizenship.

and out of the contect of the article i linked, it seems quite clear he talks about "guilt on both sides", which - in that case - would imply he talks about Hamas.


@Parrotguy....since the republicans are quite pissed about this move, is there any political career left for him anyway?

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DavidB.
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« Reply #942 on: April 30, 2017, 01:38:59 PM »

I didn't realise the Dutch were involved in the operation...
The Dutch?
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« Reply #943 on: April 30, 2017, 02:03:54 PM »

Just announced:

Dupont-Aignan would become Le Pen's PM, if she *somehow* wins.

The political death of Nicolas Dupont-Aignan. RIP

He got 5% in the first round, his best result yet. What else should we expect from him ? Becoming PM under Le Pen would be his career highlight and his best bet.

Anyway, it would be great to see a new Elabe poll. They were the best in round 1.

Well, Le Pen isn't going to win so he won't become Prime Minister and now everyone will associate him with the woefully unpopular Le Pen.

Trump wasn't supposed to win either.

OH MY F[INKS]...URGH

CAN YOU SERIOUSLY NOT UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THIS ELECTIONS OR KNOW HOW TO READ POLLS?



THIS IS LIKE PREDICTING TRUMP WOULD WIN MASSACHUSETTS.

Not to mention that Trump actually DID lose the popular vote, WHICH IS WHAT COUNTS IN THIS CASE.

LEARN TO DO SOME MATH AND SOME BASIC INFO ABOUT ELECTIONS YOU INSUFFERABLE BEDWETTERS, URGH!
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they don't love you like i love you
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« Reply #944 on: April 30, 2017, 02:09:14 PM »

Hey guys Trump won. That means that EVERY SINGLE CANDIDATE that people don't expect to win who trails in the polls right before the election from then until the end of time will win. The rules have totally changed![/so many Atlas posters]
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Beet
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« Reply #945 on: April 30, 2017, 02:14:18 PM »

At least she's trying to win, unlike Jeremy "landslide loss" Corbyn, who is down by less. The left spent 15 years bitching about "Blairites" and now that they've finally got their man, their efforts are limper than Trump's p___ if he were put in a room with Madeleine Albright.
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Umengus
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« Reply #946 on: April 30, 2017, 06:55:49 PM »

if Marine catches 40 % on the election day, it will be very important to see her result in PACA and Haut de France. If she obtains +50 %, she will have a good shot to manage their. 
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ApatheticAustrian
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« Reply #947 on: April 30, 2017, 06:59:11 PM »

Melenchon has called voting for le pen a big mistake and Panzergirl herself is atm softening her anti-eu/anti-euro approach and - if the translation was correct - said, switching back to francs would be a low priority.

#milquetoastmarine
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #948 on: April 30, 2017, 07:56:26 PM »

Structure of the vote in every Presidential election since 1965:



Literally the worst result ever for the combined left.
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Tintrlvr
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« Reply #949 on: April 30, 2017, 09:49:22 PM »

It seems inaccurate to classify Macron with Giscard, Barre, etc. given the dynamics of each race and their respective political histories. Macron with Bayrou would probably be okay despite Bayrou definitely being slightly to Macron's right in both history and political alignment, but "center" and "center-right" should be separate categories.

I'm not sure who they thought was "unclassifiable" this year. Lassalle? He should be in "center," but fine. Cheminade, okay, but he only got 0.18%. Even Lassalle + Cheminade were not 1.75% once you include abstentions (or even before). They must have included Asselineau as "unclassifiable," which is obviously false; he should be in "far-right."
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