Liberal churches report surge in participation in reaction to Trump presidency
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The world will shine with light in our nightmare
Just Passion Through
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« on: April 18, 2017, 05:55:55 PM »

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What remains to be seen, of course, is whether this is a temporary bump or the start of a new trend.  Hopefully the numbers will start reflecting this movement in the years to come...
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MAINEiac4434
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« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2017, 06:41:19 PM »

I've become more involved in my UU church since the election.
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« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2017, 06:43:43 PM »

Wonderful news! I hope these are real liberal churches that  also actually preach the message of Jesus Christ and not some watered down spiritualist crap.
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DC Al Fine
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« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2017, 06:14:22 AM »

This sort of article pops up from time to the, and my answer is always the same: I'll believe it when I see it.

Religions that do well tend to demand more from their members. I.e. there has to be reason to not sleep in on Sunday. Obviously PCUSA's version of demanding more is going to be different from the LDS or SBC versions, but liberal Protestantism doesn't seem interested in that at all.

Take the quotes from the article for example. There's plenty of social justice and opposition to Trump, but no Christ crucified. What are those churches providing that can't be obtained from a secular group? What's keeping those people there if Trump goes down in flames in 2020?

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RI
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« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2017, 09:32:28 AM »

Give it a year or two, and things will change back.
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RINO Tom
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« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2017, 10:23:56 AM »

Give it a year or two, and things will change back.

"Real Christian"'s hatred of "liberal" churches is truly strange.  I don't think Jesus would hate 'em!
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RI
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« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2017, 10:33:58 AM »

Give it a year or two, and things will change back.

"Real Christian"'s hatred of "liberal" churches is truly strange.  I don't think Jesus would hate 'em!

Liberal churches tend to be cesspools of hypocrisy, materialism, and selfishness which dilute Christianity into just another worldly social club interested primarily in virtue signalling and appeasement. They lack all intellectual rigor, all philosophical backbone, and all moral strength, giving away their entire raison d'etre in favor of easy comfort and being liked by secular society. They don't actually believe in sacrifice as an ideal. I respect evangelicals and restorationists far more than liberal Protestants. Christianity can do so much better.
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Just Passion Through
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« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2017, 10:48:04 AM »

Give it a year or two, and things will change back.

"Real Christian"'s hatred of "liberal" churches is truly strange.  I don't think Jesus would hate 'em!

Liberal churches tend to be cesspools of hypocrisy, materialism, and selfishness which dilute Christianity into just another worldly social club interested primarily in virtue signalling and appeasement.

Conservative churches do this all the time.

I'm not saying that liberal churches are without fault on those things, but the prosperity preachers and Jerry Falwells of the world have been far more detrimental to Western Christianity, and the moral bedrock of civilization as a whole, than any John Shelby Spong-esque figure.  When the postmodernists and the fundamentalists and the materialists are the ones who set the moral and religious dialogue, this sadly is the end result.  The world is falling further from God's grace, but not for what the fundamentalists believe is causing that.
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RI
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« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2017, 10:56:42 AM »

Give it a year or two, and things will change back.

"Real Christian"'s hatred of "liberal" churches is truly strange.  I don't think Jesus would hate 'em!

Liberal churches tend to be cesspools of hypocrisy, materialism, and selfishness which dilute Christianity into just another worldly social club interested primarily in virtue signalling and appeasement.

Conservative churches do this all the time.

I'm not saying that liberal churches are without fault on those things, but the prosperity preachers and Jerry Falwells of the world have been far more detrimental to Western Christianity, and the moral bedrock of civilization as a whole, than any John Shelby Spong-esque figure.  When the postmodernists and the fundamentalists and the materialists are the ones who set the moral and religious dialogue, this sadly is the end result.  The world is falling further from God's grace, but not for what the fundamentalists believe is causing that.

I have no great love for the Osteens or the Falwells of the world either. Their problems are similar, but slightly different from those of liberal Protestants.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2017, 01:07:35 PM »

Give it a year or two, and things will change back.

"Real Christian"'s hatred of "liberal" churches is truly strange.  I don't think Jesus would hate 'em!

Liberal churches tend to be cesspools of hypocrisy, materialism, and selfishness which dilute Christianity into just another worldly social club interested primarily in virtue signalling and appeasement.

Conservative churches do this all the time.

I'm not saying that liberal churches are without fault on those things, but the prosperity preachers and Jerry Falwells of the world have been far more detrimental to Western Christianity, and the moral bedrock of civilization as a whole, than any John Shelby Spong-esque figure.  When the postmodernists and the fundamentalists and the materialists are the ones who set the moral and religious dialogue, this sadly is the end result.  The world is falling further from God's grace, but not for what the fundamentalists believe is causing that.

Not to mention the fact that Evangelicals endorsed a candidate who is in every respect antithetical to all the "values" they're supposed to care about. Then again, so did RI... Roll Eyes
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RFayette
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« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2017, 01:20:58 PM »

Give it a year or two, and things will change back.

"Real Christian"'s hatred of "liberal" churches is truly strange.  I don't think Jesus would hate 'em!

Liberal churches tend to be cesspools of hypocrisy, materialism, and selfishness which dilute Christianity into just another worldly social club interested primarily in virtue signalling and appeasement.

Conservative churches do this all the time.

I'm not saying that liberal churches are without fault on those things, but the prosperity preachers and Jerry Falwells of the world have been far more detrimental to Western Christianity, and the moral bedrock of civilization as a whole, than any John Shelby Spong-esque figure.  When the postmodernists and the fundamentalists and the materialists are the ones who set the moral and religious dialogue, this sadly is the end result.  The world is falling further from God's grace, but not for what the fundamentalists believe is causing that.

Not to mention the fact that Evangelicals endorsed a candidate who is in every respect antithetical to all the "values" they're supposed to care about. Then again, so did RI... Roll Eyes

When did RI endorse Trump?  Besides, if one believes abortion is murder, is it really a surprise most Evangelicals would vote to stop the candidate who promised to appoint pro-choice justices and expand public funding for it, and thus more important than other considerations?  I'm not saying Trump is a good person (he's not), but I see nothing unprincipled about having cast a vote for him in order to stop the pro-abortion leftist agenda.
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DC Al Fine
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« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2017, 01:32:25 PM »

Give it a year or two, and things will change back.

"Real Christian"'s hatred of "liberal" churches is truly strange.  I don't think Jesus would hate 'em!

Liberal churches tend to be cesspools of hypocrisy, materialism, and selfishness which dilute Christianity into just another worldly social club interested primarily in virtue signalling and appeasement.

Conservative churches do this all the time.

I'm not saying that liberal churches are without fault on those things, but the prosperity preachers and Jerry Falwells of the world have been far more detrimental to Western Christianity, and the moral bedrock of civilization as a whole, than any John Shelby Spong-esque figure.  When the postmodernists and the fundamentalists and the materialists are the ones who set the moral and religious dialogue, this sadly is the end result.  The world is falling further from God's grace, but not for what the fundamentalists believe is causing that.

I have no great love for the Osteens or the Falwells of the world either. Their problems are similar, but slightly different from those of liberal Protestants.

To be fair to Evangelicals, their movement is much more fragmented and their government much more congregational than Mainlines or Catholics. Russell Moore can condemn Joel Osteen all he wants, but he can't actually do anything substantial about him. Contrast this with the Mainlines, who keep ordaining and supporting ministers who, to paraphrase Nathan, can't make it through the Creed without crossing their fingers, despite having the power to stop it.
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RI
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« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2017, 01:33:55 PM »

Give it a year or two, and things will change back.

"Real Christian"'s hatred of "liberal" churches is truly strange.  I don't think Jesus would hate 'em!

Liberal churches tend to be cesspools of hypocrisy, materialism, and selfishness which dilute Christianity into just another worldly social club interested primarily in virtue signalling and appeasement.

Conservative churches do this all the time.

I'm not saying that liberal churches are without fault on those things, but the prosperity preachers and Jerry Falwells of the world have been far more detrimental to Western Christianity, and the moral bedrock of civilization as a whole, than any John Shelby Spong-esque figure.  When the postmodernists and the fundamentalists and the materialists are the ones who set the moral and religious dialogue, this sadly is the end result.  The world is falling further from God's grace, but not for what the fundamentalists believe is causing that.

Not to mention the fact that Evangelicals endorsed a candidate who is in every respect antithetical to all the "values" they're supposed to care about. Then again, so did RI... Roll Eyes

Uh, I voted for Kasich in the primaries and Maturen in the general, so...
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2017, 02:05:57 PM »

Give it a year or two, and things will change back.

"Real Christian"'s hatred of "liberal" churches is truly strange.  I don't think Jesus would hate 'em!

Liberal churches tend to be cesspools of hypocrisy, materialism, and selfishness which dilute Christianity into just another worldly social club interested primarily in virtue signalling and appeasement.

Conservative churches do this all the time.

I'm not saying that liberal churches are without fault on those things, but the prosperity preachers and Jerry Falwells of the world have been far more detrimental to Western Christianity, and the moral bedrock of civilization as a whole, than any John Shelby Spong-esque figure.  When the postmodernists and the fundamentalists and the materialists are the ones who set the moral and religious dialogue, this sadly is the end result.  The world is falling further from God's grace, but not for what the fundamentalists believe is causing that.

Not to mention the fact that Evangelicals endorsed a candidate who is in every respect antithetical to all the "values" they're supposed to care about. Then again, so did RI... Roll Eyes

Uh, I voted for Kasich in the primaries and Maturen in the general, so...

Oh? I remember you saying you planned to vote for T***p at some point. Did you change your mind?
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Santander
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« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2017, 03:44:34 PM »

Most mainline Protestant churches are nothing more than social clubs where people throw around vaguely Christian language now and then to feel good about themselves and virtue signal. Some are even borderline agnostic.
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RINO Tom
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« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2017, 03:51:57 PM »
« Edited: April 19, 2017, 04:08:38 PM by RINO Tom »

Most mainline Protestant churches are nothing more than social clubs where people throw around vaguely Christian language now and then to feel good about themselves and virtue signal. Some are even borderline agnostic are just places where normal people who are freaked out by hand waving and "fire and brimstone" preaching go to share their more private, reserved faiths in God and Jesus with each other ... they also occasionally use common sense to see some Biblical stories as allegory and don't care if the psychos down the street at the evangelical "church" think they're less Christian for this basic level of intelligence and non-cultish attitudes.

Always rich when these much newer evangelical religions trash Christian faiths that have been around for so much longer because they're not weird enough.

EDIT: I won't delete anything, as I guess I typed it once so I had to have sort of meant it ... but I'm sorry if I overreacted there.  It's just really annoying to have anyone else tell you that your denomination's teachings which you've grown up with in your family for a long time or that your personal relationship with God is any less legitimate than someone else's, especially when Mainline Protestantism has been the traditionally dominant belief system in this country for decades prior and isn't some strange new twist on Christianity (if anything, that's evangelicals, especially new age ones).
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Santander
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« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2017, 04:06:48 PM »

Most mainline Protestant churches are nothing more than social clubs where people throw around vaguely Christian language now and then to feel good about themselves and virtue signal. Some are even borderline agnostic are just places where normal people who are freaked out by hand waving and "fire and brimstone" preaching go to share their more private, reserved faiths in God and Jesus with each other ... they also occasionally use common sense to see some Biblical stories as allegory and don't care if the psychos down the street at the evangelical "church" think they're less Christian for this basic level of intelligence and non-cultish attitudes.

Always rich when these much newer evangelical religions trash Christian faiths that have been around for so much longer because they're not weird enough.
Jesus told us that we are the light of the world. Even if the average mainline church's attendants truly believed in God as more than simply a metaphysical concept, there is no point in lighting a lamp and putting it under a bowl, which is exactly what restricting your faith to the four walls of the church is. We have to shine our light at darkness, which is in the real world outside the church. It is a good thing to be overtly religious and project our beliefs into every facet of our lives.
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RI
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« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2017, 04:26:09 PM »

Give it a year or two, and things will change back.

"Real Christian"'s hatred of "liberal" churches is truly strange.  I don't think Jesus would hate 'em!

Liberal churches tend to be cesspools of hypocrisy, materialism, and selfishness which dilute Christianity into just another worldly social club interested primarily in virtue signalling and appeasement.

Conservative churches do this all the time.

I'm not saying that liberal churches are without fault on those things, but the prosperity preachers and Jerry Falwells of the world have been far more detrimental to Western Christianity, and the moral bedrock of civilization as a whole, than any John Shelby Spong-esque figure.  When the postmodernists and the fundamentalists and the materialists are the ones who set the moral and religious dialogue, this sadly is the end result.  The world is falling further from God's grace, but not for what the fundamentalists believe is causing that.

Not to mention the fact that Evangelicals endorsed a candidate who is in every respect antithetical to all the "values" they're supposed to care about. Then again, so did RI... Roll Eyes

Uh, I voted for Kasich in the primaries and Maturen in the general, so...

Oh? I remember you saying you planned to vote for T***p at some point. Did you change your mind?

I waffled on the matter quite a bit but ultimately didn't vote for Trump.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2017, 04:30:08 PM »

Give it a year or two, and things will change back.

"Real Christian"'s hatred of "liberal" churches is truly strange.  I don't think Jesus would hate 'em!

Liberal churches tend to be cesspools of hypocrisy, materialism, and selfishness which dilute Christianity into just another worldly social club interested primarily in virtue signalling and appeasement.

Conservative churches do this all the time.

I'm not saying that liberal churches are without fault on those things, but the prosperity preachers and Jerry Falwells of the world have been far more detrimental to Western Christianity, and the moral bedrock of civilization as a whole, than any John Shelby Spong-esque figure.  When the postmodernists and the fundamentalists and the materialists are the ones who set the moral and religious dialogue, this sadly is the end result.  The world is falling further from God's grace, but not for what the fundamentalists believe is causing that.

Not to mention the fact that Evangelicals endorsed a candidate who is in every respect antithetical to all the "values" they're supposed to care about. Then again, so did RI... Roll Eyes

Uh, I voted for Kasich in the primaries and Maturen in the general, so...

Oh? I remember you saying you planned to vote for T***p at some point. Did you change your mind?

I waffled on the matter quite a bit but ultimately didn't vote for Trump.

Good to know. Smiley
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« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2017, 04:55:32 PM »
« Edited: April 19, 2017, 05:03:18 PM by modern maverick »

Most mainline Protestant churches are nothing more than social clubs where people throw around vaguely Christian language now and then to feel good about themselves and virtue signal. Some are even borderline agnostic are just places where normal people who are freaked out by hand waving and "fire and brimstone" preaching go to share their more private, reserved faiths in God and Jesus with each other ... they also occasionally use common sense to see some Biblical stories as allegory and don't care if the psychos down the street at the evangelical "church" think they're less Christian for this basic level of intelligence and non-cultish attitudes.

Always rich when these much newer evangelical religions trash Christian faiths that have been around for so much longer because they're not weird enough.
Jesus told us that we are the light of the world. Even if the average mainline church's attendants truly believed in God as more than simply a metaphysical concept, there is no point in lighting a lamp and putting it under a bowl, which is exactly what restricting your faith to the four walls of the church is. We have to shine our light at darkness, which is in the real world outside the church. It is a good thing to be overtly religious and project our beliefs into every facet of our lives.

I hate to go full moderate hero, especially in a thread as PROMISING as this one, but I think both of you make good points--there's nothing wrong with having a more reserved, or even skittish and uncertain, faith, but forthrightness and willingness to proclaim the Gospel do need to be treated as normative and as the ideal to strive for.

I definitely don't think doubling down on warmed-over Rauschenbusch is quite the way to square that circle, though, especially since, ideally, social consciousness shouldn't be treated as in any way incompatible with an equal emphasis on personal holiness, yet for some reason often is (and, yes, both sides do it).

Also, isn't Santander ACNA or something along those lines? Continuing Anglican denominations are new as denominations and have formed in response to new-ish theological debates, but I don't think it's really fair to lump their doctrine or practice in with flashy, ahistorical forms of Evangelicalism.
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« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2017, 06:08:38 PM »

As far as I can ascertain, the "worship community" (or whatever) of my campus, which always struck an activist tone, has appeared more political as of recent and also seems to be in a protracted war on introverts. The Powers That Be have commanded that I introduce myself to people I don't know and leave my seat to link arms with the whole congregation during the Our Father.
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DC Al Fine
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« Reply #21 on: April 19, 2017, 08:20:13 PM »

Most mainline Protestant churches are nothing more than social clubs where people throw around vaguely Christian language now and then to feel good about themselves and virtue signal. Some are even borderline agnostic are just places where normal people who are freaked out by hand waving and "fire and brimstone" preaching go to share their more private, reserved faiths in God and Jesus with each other ... they also occasionally use common sense to see some Biblical stories as allegory and don't care if the psychos down the street at the evangelical "church" think they're less Christian for this basic level of intelligence and non-cultish attitudes.

Always rich when these much newer evangelical religions trash Christian faiths that have been around for so much longer because they're not weird enough.

EDIT: I won't delete anything, as I guess I typed it once so I had to have sort of meant it ... but I'm sorry if I overreacted there.  It's just really annoying to have anyone else tell you that your denomination's teachings which you've grown up with in your family for a long time or that your personal relationship with God is any less legitimate than someone else's, especially when Mainline Protestantism has been the traditionally dominant belief system in this country for decades prior and isn't some strange new twist on Christianity (if anything, that's evangelicals, especially new age ones).

The problem is, that the institutions have been traditionally dominant, but the belief systems currently holding sway in them are new. There is a lot of talk in the PCA and ACNA about how "I didn't leave X, X left me". There's been so much change in mainline theology that many of those denomination's founders and early leaders would be unwelcome now. It's hard to imagine J. Gresham Machen for example ever getting ordained in today's PCUSA.

From a confessional Protestant point of view, the pedigree of Schori and Spong is only marginally older than some Pentecostal rolling around on the floor.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #22 on: April 19, 2017, 08:45:01 PM »
« Edited: April 19, 2017, 08:49:08 PM by AMA IL TUO PRESIDENTE! »

I hate to go full moderate hero, especially in a thread as PROMISING as this one, but I think both of you make good points--there's nothing wrong with having a more reserved, or even skittish and uncertain, faith, but forthrightness and willingness to proclaim the Gospel do need to be treated as normative and as the ideal to strive for.

I can't really disagree, but I'd point out that many of the ways in which people (especially Evangelicals of the kind RINO Tom is talking about) tend to express their forthrightness and willingness to proclaim the Gospel is often arrogant, condescending and even ostentatious. I'll admit I used to oppose these manifestations for political reasons, but that's not really an issue I have any more. One of the reasons it bother me now is that, very often, it comes across as virtue-signalling, as a way of using faith to proclaim one's superiority over others (which I'm sure you'd agree is not a very Christian attitude to have).

What's even more disturbing to me, though, is that a lot of well-intentioned proselytism betrays a fundamental unwillingness to understand where non-Christians are coming from. However true this faith might feel, and however pressing the need to convert, it's important to realize that a different faith (or atheism) will feel just as true to someone else, and that neither the Christian nor the non-Christian have any universally valid argument to bring up that the other side must take at face value. Accepting this reality, and taking it seriously, should have serious implications for how religious people talk about their faith. From what I've seen, though, many American Christians seriously miss the mark on this front (so do Dawkinsian atheists, of course, but those are not even worth caring about).
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RINO Tom
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« Reply #23 on: April 20, 2017, 09:26:21 AM »

Most mainline Protestant churches are nothing more than social clubs where people throw around vaguely Christian language now and then to feel good about themselves and virtue signal. Some are even borderline agnostic are just places where normal people who are freaked out by hand waving and "fire and brimstone" preaching go to share their more private, reserved faiths in God and Jesus with each other ... they also occasionally use common sense to see some Biblical stories as allegory and don't care if the psychos down the street at the evangelical "church" think they're less Christian for this basic level of intelligence and non-cultish attitudes.

Always rich when these much newer evangelical religions trash Christian faiths that have been around for so much longer because they're not weird enough.

EDIT: I won't delete anything, as I guess I typed it once so I had to have sort of meant it ... but I'm sorry if I overreacted there.  It's just really annoying to have anyone else tell you that your denomination's teachings which you've grown up with in your family for a long time or that your personal relationship with God is any less legitimate than someone else's, especially when Mainline Protestantism has been the traditionally dominant belief system in this country for decades prior and isn't some strange new twist on Christianity (if anything, that's evangelicals, especially new age ones).

The problem is, that the institutions have been traditionally dominant, but the belief systems currently holding sway in them are new. There is a lot of talk in the PCA and ACNA about how "I didn't leave X, X left me". There's been so much change in mainline theology that many of those denomination's founders and early leaders would be unwelcome now. It's hard to imagine J. Gresham Machen for example ever getting ordained in today's PCUSA.

From a confessional Protestant point of view, the pedigree of Schori and Spong is only marginally older than some Pentecostal rolling around on the floor.

I think that's a fair point, and at the end of the day I'll take whatever insults or jabs that anyone - more religious or less religious than I - will throw at me, and it won't change my beliefs.  I have never seen the value in critiquing things like this or thinking that looking at the Bible and "picking and choosing" which parts you see as feasible or relevant to a modern world makes one a hypocrite, etc.  If I truly believe in the Resurrection but believe that such a fantastic event - manufactured by God Himself - probably happened in a much less "worldy" way than depicted in books that are thousands of years old, I don't see myself as some type of "cultural Christian" or part of a "social club that uses vaguely Christian language."  I find it perfectly logical that some of the Bible's stories were either 1) put in there to teach a lesson and were not grounded in any type of historical truth or 2) have been morphed by centuries of translation to the point that we don't know what actually happened, and I don't find these opinions sacreligious or whatever.

I fully respect those who feel differently (so long as they don't come at my beliefs), but I have always held that traditional Lutheran view of "if God didn't want us to use our brains, he wouldn't have given us them."  Questioning things isn't bad.  The other Lutheran view I adhere strongly to is the idea that each individual can have a personal relationship with God, so while I appreciate evangelism and specifically the role it played in spreading early Christianity, I don't think someone who has developed a more private and secluded relationship with God is failing in his or her "duty," spiritually.
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RI
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« Reply #24 on: April 20, 2017, 10:10:51 AM »
« Edited: April 20, 2017, 11:17:28 AM by RI »

I have always held that traditional Lutheran view of "if God didn't want us to use our brains, he wouldn't have given us them."  Questioning things isn't bad.  

There are plenty of non-Mainline churches which would agree with this statement.

I find it perfectly logical that some of the Bible's stories were either 1) put in there to teach a lesson and were not grounded in any type of historical truth

Hey look, another thing Catholics also teach.
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