Why is Kaliningrad not part of Lithuania (or Poland)?

[Silent Hunter]

St Petersburg? All the ports in the Black Sea? All their ports in the far east? (like say, Vladivostok)

St Petersburg can freeze and to get out of the Black Sea, you need to go through the Bosphorous, which is Turkish on both sides.

[Blue3]

But you said they need Kaliningrad because it's the only seaport that's not frozen in the winter in that area of Russia. And I said it still doesn't make much sense, since anything that's imported into Kaliningrad would need to go through NATO countries by air or land to make it to the rest of Russia.

So? Why should it make Kaliningrad not being strategically important for Russia?

I don't understand what you don't understand.

You said it would be needed as a port, as the only port that doesn't freeze in winter in that area of Russia.

I said anything that is at that port, in order to make it to or from the rest of Russia, would need to go through NATO by land or air.

You said, no, by water.

I said: "but you said all the other ports in that area would be frozen in winter, and that's why they need Kaliningrad in the first place."


I'm not sure where we are miscommunicating...

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

St Petersburg? All the ports in the Black Sea? All their ports in the far east? (like say, Vladivostok)

St Petersburg can freeze and to get out of the Black Sea, you need to go through the Bosphorous, which is Turkish on both sides.

Russian/Soviet Naval situation always sucked for geographic/climate reasons.

1. The only non-freezing Baltic port is Kaliningrad, which is not contiguous with the rest of Russia
2. In order to leave the Baltic, you have to go through the Danish straits
3. In order to leave Black Sea, you have to go through the Turkish straits. In order to leave the Mediterranean, you have to go through either Gibraltar or the Suez Canal

Of course it's no problem (legally speaking) in peacetime, but in wartime it would be a serious handicap.

The main reason annexation of Crimea happened was because of the naval bases. Also, air bases, since it gives you a perfect point to quickly reach Turkey.

Russians are very serious about having a proper sea access.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

I once read that Gorbatschow offered Königsberg to our then Chancellor Kohl in the reunification talks in 1990 but we declined.

That'd poison Poland-Unified Germany relations I imagine.

[Klartext89]

I once read that Gorbatschow offered Königsberg to our then Chancellor Kohl in the reunification talks in 1990 but we declined.

That'd poison Poland-Unified Germany relations I imagine.

Of course but I think the biggest Russian reason to offer it was the need for German money.

[IceAgeComing]

I studied the Baltic States quite a bit when I was at uni (although I focused mostly on post-1991, that involved covering the Soviet occupation); the justification I saw on why they made the Kaliningrad Oblast as an exclave of the RSFSR instead of including it in the Lithuanian SSR was that it further separated the Baltic States from Western rule and although that was purely symbolic; the internal borders of the Soviet Union were purely symbolic things.  You have to remember that western states never formally recognised the Baltic States as part of the Soviet Union, we always legally recognised them as independent states and right through to 1991 in some places you had "ambassadors" representing the three countries.  It wasn't uncommon to do odd things with internal borders to divide people up in odd ways: the borders between the Central Asian republics bear little resemblance to anything that really existed before the mid-1930s; they were just drawn up by the top brass in the USSR to abritrarily divide people up into different nationalities that never really existed: and in many ways still don't.

One reason for the above-mentioned point about Russia or the USSR (I don't know who it would have been at that time, that was the point when both levels were saying very different things) offering to give Kaliningrad back to Germany was that none of the peace documents have ever formally transferred it to Russia; all of the stuff said that it was under "Soviet Administration" which suggests that it might not have been meant as a permanent arrangement, and although Germany don't actively claim the thing they haven't formally renounced any claims to it either.  It'd never go back now (Russia's only non-freezing port so without it Russia would be reliant on Germany and Lithuania for one; the population is almost all Russian now and any transfer of control would be... messy, just look at the Russian minorities in Estonia and Latvia).  It might have worked in 1990; certainly not now though.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

You have to remember that western states never formally recognised the Baltic States as part of the Soviet Union, we always legally recognised them as independent states and right through to 1991 in some places you had "ambassadors" representing the three countries.  ht have worked in 1990; certainly not now though.

Oh yes, it's quite a fascinating issue. I remember Latvian sovergnity being largely represented by Anatols Dinbergs, a pre-war diplomat who became a head of Latvian diplomatic service abroad, even though neither Latvia nor Lithuania had governments in exile, while Estonia had one.

[IceAgeComing]

One thing that I remember from that time was that there was a letter congratulating America for... something (I'd like to say that it was a letter to the crew of Apollo 11 for landing on the moon but I can't find it right now, this is something that I last thought about like five years ago) signed by all of the Ambassadors from the major Western nations and Dinsbergs' name was on it representing Latvia, which was really quite interesting.  I actually didn't know that Estonia had a government in exile after the occupation, I'll have to look into that!  In the others what seemed to happen was that they kept a few of the old government around in powerless positions until they could purge them a few months later; plus I imagine that it was a lot harder for them to escape...

I've just remembered that they did make one border change to the Kaliningrad Oblast: before 1949 Klaipeda and the area around it was included with Kaliningrad rather than the Lithuanian SSR.  I imagine that the reason they changed it was again symbolic: it had been part of Lithuania before the war (pre-1918 as Memel it had a very similar history to Kaliningrad in that it was always a part of Prussia and was key tactically as well since the northern-most non-freezing port in Europe: they made it a free city like Gdansk in Versailles and Lithuania ended up invading it in 1921 and incorporated it.  The population was decimated by the war, they mostly settled it with Lithuanians although I'm sure that it still has the highest proportion of Russians in the country); its not like much changed until 1991.  Its also an incredibly nice city near lots of beautiful places (the Curonian Split is fab; the beaches are all nice if you're into that sort of thing plus you still occasionally see little bits of ex-Soviet stuff kicking around on them since the beaches were off-limits during that time to prevent people swimming out and trying to defect on western shipping), its hard to get there since you either have to somehow fly into Palanga, get a train from Vilnius or Kaunas or a bus from Riga airport but I'd recommend it if you're ever nearby for some reason, I spent a month there a few years back and its still the best month of my life and probably the reason why I love the region so much.  If they hadn't done that, then Russia would actually have ended up in quite a powerful strategic position in the region, thinking about it...

[Zuza]

It wasn't uncommon to do odd things with internal borders to divide people up in odd ways: the borders between the Central Asian republics bear little resemblance to anything that really existed before the mid-1930s; they were just drawn up by the top brass in the USSR to abritrarily divide people up into different nationalities that never really existed: and in many ways still don't.

The problem with Central Asia was that there weren't any national identities in the region before the Soviets.

Actually all 5 Central Asian republics exist in the same or roughly similar borders since 1924-1925, although initially most of them were subdivisions within larger entities (Kazakh ASSR was part of the RSFSR, Tajik ASSR was part of the Uzbek SSR etc.). And these borders, unlike pre-revolutionary ones, reflect ethno-linguistic divisions pretty well. But, of course, if people in some area speak the same language, it doesn't yet make them a nation.

[Kevinstat]

Exactly which bits of the Soviet Union went into which 'Republic' was at the time not terribly relevant; the Empire was not a genuine federal entity and it was never supposed to break up.

Yes, so why wasn't this part of Lithuania, since it's not continuous with the rest of Russia?

Probably because Stalin felt that "Russia" had to get something for its people's role in the "Great Patriotic War" (he was a Russianized Georgian himself, and reversed some earlier Soviet policies that promoted the languages of other constituent peoples), and the part of East Prussia going to the USSR that hadn't been part of Lithuania was probably the only Soviet gain that another constituent republic didn't have a "claim".

The establishment of the Moldavian SSR including modern Transnistria and Ukraine getting Soviet Bukovina and southern Bessarabia happened before the Axis invasion of the USSR, as had the expansions of the Byelorussian and Ukrainian SSRs into inter-war Poland, although there was also an ethnic basis for those areas joining those "republics".  Even before the Moldavian SSR was created in 1940 when the Soviet Union annexed territory from Romania, there had been a Moldavian Autonomous SSR within the Ukrainian SSR which included all the then-Soviet territory now in Moldova (I won't say all of modern Transnistria because the Transnistrian and Moldovan governments now each control some small bits of territory on the other side of the pre-1940 Soviet-Romanian boundary) and territory further east that remained in the Ukrainian SSR (no longer "autonomous") and is thus now part of Ukraine.

[Grand Wizard Lizard of the Klan]

I heard somewhere that Stalin offered Kaliningrad oblast to Lithuanians but they rejected the offer. Also, not well known fact but for very, very short time there were Polish military control over city itself in 1944 or 1945, but I don't remember details.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Because Stalin wanted it for Russia.

[IceAgeComing]

I heard somewhere that Stalin offered Kaliningrad oblast to Lithuanians but they rejected the offer. Also, not well known fact but for very, very short time there were Polish military control over city itself in 1944 or 1945, but I don't remember details.

The former may well have happened but it doesn't really matter, since its not like the Lithuanian SSR were ever truly independent to make a decision like that; especially when Stalin was still alive.  Also any Polish control would have been the Soviet-backed Polish forces rather than the Home Army, which weren't very active in that area.

[SoLongAtlas]

Russia kept it after the fall to have another naval base option (Baltic Fleet).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_Fleet#Under_the_Russian_Federation

[Obama-Biden Democrat]

I heard somewhere that Stalin offered Kaliningrad oblast to Lithuanians but they rejected the offer. Also, not well known fact but for very, very short time there were Polish military control over city itself in 1944 or 1945, but I don't remember details.

Stalin 'offered' Kaliningrad to the head of the Lithuanian SSR. How he managed to decline the 'friendly fraternal socialist offer' without a bullet in the back of the head is beyond me. The Lithuanians decided that it would too much of a expensive hassle to kick all the ethnic Germans out and resettle the area with Lithuanians and having to repair the war damage. Maybe the Lithuanians replied that Lithuania was so grateful for being 'liberated' by the Russians, that the Russians could have the Kalinigrad as a gift.

[Lord Halifax]

I heard somewhere that Stalin offered Kaliningrad oblast to Lithuanians but they rejected the offer. Also, not well known fact but for very, very short time there were Polish military control over city itself in 1944 or 1945, but I don't remember details.

Stalin 'offered' Kaliningrad to the head of the Lithuanian SSR. How he managed to decline the 'friendly fraternal socialist offer' without a bullet in the back of the head is beyond me. The Lithuanians decided that it would too much of a expensive hassle to kick all the ethnic Germans out and resettle the area with Lithuanians and having to repair the war damage. Maybe the Lithuanians replied that Lithuania was so grateful for being 'liberated' by the Russians, that the Russians could have the Kalinigrad as a gift.

The Germans had already fled or been deported. The problem was that the area was being repopulated with ethnic Russians and the leader of the Lithuanian Communists Antanas Sniečkus didn't want a large number of Russians in Lithuania. Russians would have made up more than 30% of the Lithuanian population if the plan had gone through.

[Gustaf]

It's very obvious why they want it now, it has strategic importance.

As for back then I always assumed that it had to do with it being territory taken directly from Germany while the Baltic states were existing entities being occupied.

[IceAgeComing]

I heard somewhere that Stalin offered Kaliningrad oblast to Lithuanians but they rejected the offer. Also, not well known fact but for very, very short time there were Polish military control over city itself in 1944 or 1945, but I don't remember details.

Stalin 'offered' Kaliningrad to the head of the Lithuanian SSR. How he managed to decline the 'friendly fraternal socialist offer' without a bullet in the back of the head is beyond me. The Lithuanians decided that it would too much of a expensive hassle to kick all the ethnic Germans out and resettle the area with Lithuanians and having to repair the war damage. Maybe the Lithuanians replied that Lithuania was so grateful for being 'liberated' by the Russians, that the Russians could have the Kalinigrad as a gift.

The Germans had already fled or been deported. The problem was that the area was being repopulated with ethnic Russians and the leader of the Lithuanian Communists Antanas Sniečkus didn't want a large number of Russians in Lithuania. Russians would have made up more than 30% of the Lithuanian population if the plan had gone through.

Which would have been numbers quite similar to those of the other Baltic States (Latvia was 40%+ Russian in 1990; Estonia was around 30%;  while in Lithuania they were like 8% and below Poles who were a much more entrenched group historically in the Vilnius region) and probably impacted the way that they approached the citizenship question post-independence.  Basically; Lithuania automatically gave Lithuanian citizenship to all Soviet citizens that resided in Lithuania on independence day (plus offered to Lithuanians who lived overseas at the time who came back); while Estonia and Latvia went by the notion that they were independent from 1918 and had been occupied by the USSR in 1940; therefore citizenship was only given to those who could prove links to Latvia before the occupation date which didn't include those (predominantly Russian) migrants under Soviet rule.  Those who weren't citizens became "resident aliens" which gave them residency rights and a passport and basic rights but not political rights (bar in local elections in Estonia I think) unless they went through naturalisation which is still a big problem since most older Russians still aren't citizens - their children are automatically but they learn the national language at school which is the big barrier.  My Russian-Latvian friend is in that position - his parents are technically stateless.

I'd assume that if Lithuania had a larger proportion of Russians in their borders (which if they had the Kaliningrad oblast they wouls) they likely would have gone down the route of more exclusionary citizenship policies.

[SNJ1985]

In 1941, a British official suggested making East Prussia the location of a Jewish state in talks with David Ben-Gurion, who later became the first Prime Minister of Israel.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

In 1941, a British official suggested making East Prussia the location of a Jewish state in talks with David Ben-Gurion, who later became the first Prime Minister of Israel.

Marek Edelman, the last surviving leader of the Warsaw Ghetto uprising, once suggested, half-seriously, the best place to establish the Jewish state was Bavaria, because it would be historically fair (payback to the birthplace of the Nazism), and "the climate is more bearable." Not being a Zionist himself (as he came from the Bund), he said so in response to those saying establishing a Jewish state in Palestine was "historically the fairest option".

I can't think of all proposed places for Jewish homelands other than Palestine: there was Africa, Canada, Crimea, Madagascar and now I'm learning about East Prussia. I doubt any of these would even work, given the symbolic importance of returning to Palestine. It would probably end in a failure like the Jewish Autonomous Oblast.