Name Two States That a Very Similar Politically...

[12th Doctor]

but are not next to each other.



I vote PA and Michigan.

[12th Doctor]

To elaborate...

They are close to each other, population wise.  They both have large Metro areas of over 2,000,000 that play a heavy role in state politics (and are both located in the Southeast corner of the state).  The Upper Penninsula is quite similar to Southwestern PA and the Coal Belt.  The rest of the both states are made up of medium and small sized cities that lean Republican and the rural areas of the lower Pennisula are very much like those in Central PA.

The only major difference is that Michigan lacks a smaller, large metro area to offset Detriot.  Thus, Michigan is a little more Liberal friendly.

[Hitchabrut]

Indiana and Oklahoma.

[True Democrat]

Indiana and Oklahoma.

I think Oklahoma is a lot more conservative than Indiana.

A good one for Indiana is South Dakota.

[RJ]

Illinois and Washington.

West Virginia and Missouri.

Alabama and Oklahoma.

(Aren't PA and MI next to each other? There's only a lake between them...))

[12th Doctor]

Illinois and Washington.

West Virginia and Missouri.

Alabama and Oklahoma.

(Aren't PA and MI next to each other? There's only a lake between them...))

1)  How are Illinois and Washington anything alike?

2)  PA and Michigan don't touch.

[Alcon]

Indiana and Oklahoma.

I think Oklahoma is a lot more conservative than Indiana.

A good one for Indiana is South Dakota.

Indiana is pretty populist; South Dakota is pretty libertarian.

[Cashcow]

The Upper Penninsula is quite similar to Southwestern PA and the Coal Belt.

False

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You could argue the Grand Rapids area, which is heavily conservative and surrounded by significant cities (Holland, Kalamazoo, Battle Creek, etc.)

I do not agree with your assessment.

@RJ: The lake is between Ontario and Pennsylvania, not Michigan and Pennsylvania.

[12th Doctor]

The Upper Penninsula is quite similar to Southwestern PA and the Coal Belt.

False

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You could argue the Grand Rapids area, which is heavily conservative and surrounded by significant cities (Holland, Kalamazoo, Battle Creek, etc.)

I do not agree with your assessment.

@RJ: The lake is between Ontario and Pennsylvania, not Michigan and Pennsylvania.

Could you add a little more than that?

[Hitchabrut]

Illinois is populist, Washington is libertarian, also

[Cashcow]

The Upper Penninsula is quite similar to Southwestern PA and the Coal Belt.

False

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You could argue the Grand Rapids area, which is heavily conservative and surrounded by significant cities (Holland, Kalamazoo, Battle Creek, etc.)

I do not agree with your assessment.

@RJ: The lake is between Ontario and Pennsylvania, not Michigan and Pennsylvania.

Could you add a little more than that?

The UP is essentially what you would imagine rural Canada to be - liberal, but not beyond normal bounds. Most areas vote Republican due to economic libertarianism. It is very hands-off, and I wouldn't describe it as even leaning socially conservative. A much better example would be northern Minnesota/Duluth (though I can't say I've ever been there).

[12th Doctor]

The Upper Penninsula is quite similar to Southwestern PA and the Coal Belt.

False

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You could argue the Grand Rapids area, which is heavily conservative and surrounded by significant cities (Holland, Kalamazoo, Battle Creek, etc.)

I do not agree with your assessment.

@RJ: The lake is between Ontario and Pennsylvania, not Michigan and Pennsylvania.

Could you add a little more than that?

The UP is essentially what you would imagine rural Canada to be - liberal, but not beyond normal bounds. Most areas vote Republican due to economic libertarianism. It is very hands-off, and I wouldn't describe it as even leaning socially conservative. A much better example would be northern Minnesota/Duluth (though I can't say I've ever been there).

Interesting.  I was wrong then, it seems.  What is the Northern Lower Pennisula like?

[Cashcow]

The Upper Penninsula is quite similar to Southwestern PA and the Coal Belt.

False

You must be logged in to read this quote.

You could argue the Grand Rapids area, which is heavily conservative and surrounded by significant cities (Holland, Kalamazoo, Battle Creek, etc.)

I do not agree with your assessment.

@RJ: The lake is between Ontario and Pennsylvania, not Michigan and Pennsylvania.

Could you add a little more than that?

The UP is essentially what you would imagine rural Canada to be - liberal, but not beyond normal bounds. Most areas vote Republican due to economic libertarianism. It is very hands-off, and I wouldn't describe it as even leaning socially conservative. A much better example would be northern Minnesota/Duluth (though I can't say I've ever been there).

Interesting.  I was wrong then, it seems.  What is the Northern Lower Pennisula like?

Quite different actually. The UP is really just a series of lake communities - and very nice ones at that. 

It must be noted that Michigan and Wisconsin created the Republican Party. These states have a very proud history, and much of that is retained in the minor urban areas. The economically liberal Democrats have never really connected with much of the upper midwest, especially some of the more affluent MI lower peninsula farmers - this puts it at odds with western Wisconsin and especially the socially liberal upper peninsula.

Southwest Michigan is conservative to the core. Southeast Michigan is liberal to the core. An interesting state, indeed.

I hope I've cleared some things up The rest of your description makes perfect sense by the way.


Edit: Take a look at this map from the 1988 Presidential Election. Probably had something to do with the farm crisis, but it does point out a significant difference between the peninsulas:

[RJ]

1)  How are Illinois and Washington anything alike?

If not for the big city(realistically 1 county) in each, they both flip GOP. Southern IL is to Indiana as western WA is to Idaho. State governments are democratic. Both senators are Democrats in IL and at least 1(maybe both? can't remember who the other is right now) in WA is a Democrat.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Most areas vote Republican due to economic libertarianism.

Since when was Bart Stupak an "economic libertarian"?

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UP isn't an agricultural area; mainly resource industries (especially metal mining).

[Cashcow]

Most areas vote Republican due to economic libertarianism.

Since when was Bart Stupak an "economic libertarian"?

Since when was Mitt Romney a liberal?

Claiming that the UP is similar to a populist Pennsylvania coal-mining region is false. It is much, much more of a hands-off area.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Since when was Mitt Romney a liberal?

I've never said he is and I don't think that has much to do with anything.
I used Stupak as an example because most of the state/local politicians in the area have similer or similer-ish views to him... so unless there's something very odd about voting patterns up there

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I didn't make the claim, but while there are differences (PA coalfields do tend to be more socially conservative, and more Catholic, than the UP is) there are plently of similarities as well. Mind you the western and central parts of the UP (where most of the people live) are politically quite different to the eastern part.

[Cashcow]

I didn't make the claim, but while there are differences (PA coalfields do tend to be more socially conservative, and more Catholic, than the UP is) there are plently of similarities as well. Mind you the western and central parts of the UP (where most of the people live) are politically quite different to the eastern part.

While it's true that the Marquette area is probably more liberal than the SSM/Mackinac part, neither can effectively be compared to the coal mining regions of Pennsylvania, which are basically West Virginia lite... in fact, I don't think it really connects to anywhere in the upper midwest; Duluth is stretching it. Similar voting patterns don't mean a thing.

You won't find any Bob Caseys in Northern Michigan.

[Dave from Michigan]

Michigan and Pennsylvannia are pretty similar

[A18]

Michigan and Pennsylvannia are pretty similar

In that a city runs the whole state?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

While it's true that the Marquette area is probably more liberal than the SSM/Mackinac part, neither can effectively be compared to the coal mining regions of Pennsylvania,

I don't really see why not; despite the differences (which are largely (but not entirely) due to the different ethnic composition of the two areas) they are *reasonably* similer; certainly *not* an exact match though.

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Not at all. The PA coalfields are strongly Catholic for the most part; the religious patterns of Central Appalachia are unique in the U.S; religious, yes, Evangelical, yes, Church going... not usually. At least not to the same extent as in the rest of the U.S
Lot's of small Charismatic churches, chapels etc. as well.

[Cashcow]

While it's true that the Marquette area is probably more liberal than the SSM/Mackinac part, neither can effectively be compared to the coal mining regions of Pennsylvania,

I don't really see why not; despite the differences (which are largely (but not entirely) due to the different ethnic composition of the two areas) they are *reasonably* similer; certainly *not* an exact match though.

You have yet to provide any reason why the Upper Peninsula of Michigan can be compared to the populists of Western Pennsylvania. The differences are not only due to ethnicity, but type of land, economy, etc.

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Actually, still much less religious compared to central Pennsylvania.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

The differences are not only due to ethnicity, but type of land, economy, etc.

The historical economic structure (which is what generally determines voting patterns) of most of the UP is similer to the most of the PA coalfields; based around primaries industries the products of which were then exported to larger industrial centres.
Now when you go into more detail, differences emerge (coal in PA as opposed to Iron and Copper in MI, the use of a lake for transportation as opposed to rivers etc)... although there's a lot of differences between different PA coalfields; labor disputes were always more violent in the Anthracite Region than out West.

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I wasn't talking about central Pennsylvania

[Cashcow]

The differences are not only due to ethnicity, but type of land, economy, etc.

The historical economic structure (which is what generally determines voting patterns) of most of the UP is similer to the most of the PA coalfields; based around primaries industries the products of which were then exported to larger industrial centres.
Now when you go into more detail, differences emerge (coal in PA as opposed to Iron and Copper in MI, the use of a lake for transportation as opposed to rivers etc)... although there's a lot of differences between different PA coalfields; labor disputes were always more violent in the Anthracite Region than out West.

And when you factor in the major religious and ethnic differences, you get two entirely different regions that sometimes have similar voting patterns. Wow.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

And when you factor in the major religious and ethnic differences, you get two entirely different regions that sometimes have similar voting patterns. Wow.

I didn't say that they weren't different. I said that there are some simileraties.