Belgian Politics & Elections: Federal, regional & EP elections on June 9, 2024
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Poll
Question: Do you think Chez Nous will get seats?
#1
No, they won't get even 2,5% in Wallonia and Brussels  (what would happen accoding to recent polls)
 
#2
No, but they will get votes in the 2,5%-4,99% rango in Wallonia and/or Brussels
 
#3
No. They will pass the 5% threshold in Wallonia and/or Brussels, but somehow they won't get seats.
 
#4
Yes, they will get 1-2 seats
 
#5
Yes, they will get more than 2 seats
 
Show Pie Chart
Partisan results

Total Voters: 16

Author Topic: Belgian Politics & Elections: Federal, regional & EP elections on June 9, 2024  (Read 137028 times)
Zinneke
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« Reply #625 on: May 23, 2020, 03:52:44 AM »
« edited: May 23, 2020, 02:05:16 PM by Zinneke »

edit : Laki beat me to it



before/after Corona. Obviously too late for the VLD switch.

VB are now the largest party in Flanders.

If Open VLD goes right, that seems counterproductive as doesn't Flemish region already vote heavily right so why would it need another right wing party?

Because they have already tried demonising the Right in Flanders and it backfired. Its also an entire spectrum falling into the VB trap has set ; that is, believing that they must absolutely cover some of VB's fundamental program points like anti-immigration and more devolved powers to Flanders to win back votes, but forgetting that VB runs a left-wing populist economic program and will always, always beat them on anti-immigration and devolved powers (given they advocate independence). By normalizing VB's discourse the Flemish Right has unleashed a beast they cannot control. The final trap they will fall into is breaking the cordon sanitaire, when it is their greatest asset against VB.


Quote
Also how come Flanders votes so heavily to right and Wallonia to left?  Any reason for that sharp divide.  Comparing to North America its almost like Flanders is akin to Alberta in Canada and Wallonia akin to Quebec while for US, Flanders would be like Wyoming and Wallonia like Vermont in terms of which way the tilt and one sided dominance.

First, don't compare Belgium to North America, it won't help. Despite Flemish people voting the way they do, Flanders is still economically quite left-wing compared to, say, the Netherlands, let alone North America. It is also more conservative than the Netherlands in the Burkean sense. Forget any comparisons with anyone other than the Netherlands or Luxembourg that have similar electoral systems, size and party configurations with one or two cleavages that differ.

I have already answered why the left-right gap exists before but to sum up my hypotheses :

Flanders is extremely densely populated to the extent that cities do not dominate and that the median voter is in a 4 sided villa with service sector job, with a company car, dependent on it for getting around, and never actually experienced Brussels outside the main stations which are hellholes, and get told nasty stories about immigrants there. They are thus socially conservative, and do not like the Boogeymen Left potentially taking away their ability to have a 4 sided villa and a company car. Its also inevitably going to be more pro-market like any port-based city state (which in global terms is what Flanders is) than Wallonia.

Wallonia is mostly concentrated around its cities, that demographically exploded (with foreigners) during the industrial revolution, where a rust belt (The "Sillon Industriel Wallon") was formed. In the 70s and 80s facing competition from abroad these places start to close, a classic story in most rust belts in Europe (Northern France, Erzgerbirge, South Wales, etc.) but by then the PS had effectively achieved peak cultural hegemony through its many wings , NGOs and union in the Walloon Industrial Belt, and effectively blamed it on globalisation and lack of investment from the central government. People in Wallonia's most populous areas are either from an immigrant background or are used to them by now, and Wallonia is demographically not a boomer time bomb to the extent Flanders is in. The only cleavage that matters in Wallonia is usually the socio-economic one, unlike Flanders where it is multiple. And that suits socialist/social democratic parties.

Then you have progressive Brussels (that used to trend MR) and its particularities but to sum that up its just Big City mentality (with the most nationalities for a city in the world after Dubai) + wanting their city to be more livable so less cars, more associative action etc.


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Zinneke
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« Reply #626 on: May 23, 2020, 04:00:00 AM »

I would add to what Laki said about VLD : there is definitely a very online, very IT/service sector demographic in Flanders, usually in places like Gent and Mechelen where social liberal VLD does well, that wants a pro-market social liberal, green, concerned about urban planning, but also anti-immigration, which is what someone from Somers' wing would potentially tap into. That chance has gone now. Those people make their choice depending on the level of government and the priority. 
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Zinneke
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« Reply #627 on: May 23, 2020, 06:32:06 AM »



projection of seats as per Pascal Delwit
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« Reply #628 on: May 23, 2020, 06:51:05 AM »
« Edited: May 23, 2020, 06:56:58 AM by Laki »

Some good recent articles on the Workers’ Party of Belgium

What makes the Workers’ Party of Belgium tick?

Quote
The change in the party was also very necessary in view of social-democratic parties having gradually drifted toward the center, up to becoming part of the new neoliberal offensive – with Tony Blair in the United Kingdom, Gerhard Schröder in Germany, and social-democratic ministers implementing privatization, deregulation and liberalization policies in Belgium. During the 2005 protest movement against the government’s pension reform, the PTB was very active at picket lines and in protest rallies, regaining credit for the trade unions. Membership conditions were eased and hundreds of trade unionists became members of a PTB in full revival mode. The party further transformed from a cadre party into a members’ party. And in the 2006 municipal elections, the party’s change of direction resulted in the election of 15 local representatives in six towns.

The Workers’ Party of Belgium was founded in 1979, but this was preceded by a decade of preparation, based on the students’ movement of May 68 and the choice of a group of students to link up with the working class and actively participate in various important strike movements. They also started the now-famous network of people’s clinics, Medicine for the People. But when in 1999, after thirty years of activism and hard work, the PTB-PVDA recorded a meager 0.6% at the parliamentary elections, the party was on the verge of an internal crisis and decided to engage in some serious soul-searching. A broad survey among party sympathizers helped the party leadership to pinpoint important flaws and weaknesses in our approach: sectarianism, rigid thinking, sloganeering, a radical confrontation strategy, too high demands on party members, a too restricted action terrain. The party decided to change, but realizing and implementing this took some time – a time of intense debate and practice. The first public sign of the party renewal was a broad mass campaign in favor of inexpensive prescription drugs, dubbed the ‘kiwi campaign’ (inspired by New Zealand’s system of public tendering for drug purchasing, thus cutting the profit margins of Big Pharma). This campaign also ushered in a new, fresh communication style of the party, with the kiwi fruit as a ‘fresh’ symbol.
In 2008, the party held its 8th Congress, the Renewal Congress. There, we confirmed our identity as a party of the working class in the broad sense, a party of the 21st century,  a party that remains firm on its Marxist principles and that aims for socialism, a party that applies adequate tactics in order to better conscientize, organize and mobilize ever-broader layers of the population. In 2010, we set up an annual solidarity festival on the Belgian seaside, called ManiFiesta. We supported new initiatives of the cultural sector and of the broader civil society against budget cuts and nationalist division. And we were active in each and every strike and protest movement, be it against the austerity policies imposed by the federal government – on the prodding of the European Commission – or in sectoral struggles of railway workers, bus drivers, cleaning personnel, health care workers and others.

Our renewed approach also bore fruits in elections. In the 2012 municipal elections, the PTB made its first breakthrough in two major cities: Antwerp and Liège, and in the 2014 parliamentary elections, the PTB obtained two representatives in the federal parliament, as well as two in the Walloon and four in the Brussels parliaments. They were the first Marxists in parliament in 30 years.

The party’s Solidarity Congress, in 2015, affirmed the orientation the PTB had taken and deepened the party’s analysis and orientations on socialism (‘Socialism 2.0’) and on the struggle for a cultural counter-hegemony, based on the working class but including broad layers of society. Meanwhile, the party had grown to 8,500 members and had significantly increased the number of its grassroots branches, both in municipalities and in factories.

The 2018 local elections and the 2019 regional, federal and European elections reflected the further growth and impact of the party. The number of PTB voters more than doubled compared to 2014, with the party now representing 8.6% of all voters in Belgium. In Wallonia, we obtained 13,8%, in Brussels 13.5% and in Flanders, moving against the tide of the extreme right, 5.6%. These are scores for communists not seen since 1946, when, just after the Second World War, the Communist Party won 12.7% of the vote. The PTB now has 39 representatives in the various parliaments, including in the European Parliaments (with one MEP). Concomitantly, party membership has peaked at over 19,000.

Quote
Our approach to conscientize, organize and mobilize the workers and the people for their immediate demands, linked to our longer-term strategy of change and our final goal of building an alternative, socialist society, was already defined and put into practice since the time of the ‘kiwi campaign’ and our Renewal Congress. But we further developed and refined this in the recent election campaigns, and are currently applying the same principles in our campaign for a minimum pension of 1,500 euro net.

The first pillar of this approach is political: listen to the people and find out which social problems concern them most, and put them on the agenda. These are the issues of pensions, unaffordable electricity bills, high prices for medicines and health care, tax justice and free public transport, among others. And contrast these with the exorbitant profits of transnational corporations and the shameful schemes for tax exemptions, tax havens, and tax fraud provided to them. There is also a strong anti-establishment side to our political positioning, which is responding to the people’s justified outrage about the many privileges the political, banking and business elites allot themselves. Finally, we make it a point to offer positive and realistic solutions for every major issue, as opposed to the empty promises of the traditional parties.

The second pillar is organizational: a party of active members, with a strong grassroots campaign, involving thousands of volunteers. This involves a pyramidal system of contacting and involving party militants and members, collaborators, activists and sympathizers, layer by layer. This also involves simple campaign tools, a practice-oriented and brief political education. And above all, there is the clear call to mobilize, to take to the streets and to take action for change.

The third pillar is communication on social media, a pillar we have yet to develop to its fullest potential. In the last weeks of the election campaign, we reached 500,000 people per day on social media, and we began to produce more video clips and motion stories that often became very popular.

On these three components (politics, organizing, and communication), our municipal councilors and members of parliaments play a supportive role, with a working principle which is “street-council-street”: from the street to the council or parliament, and back to the street. Their speeches, resolutions and legislative work in the municipal council and parliament serve and reinforce the social struggle. But the latter will always remain the decisive factor – as it was historically in the fights to end child labor, install the eight-hour working week or obtain equal voting rights.

Let me give recent examples of how we go about it by highlighting our current campaign for minimum pensions of 1,500 euro net. With average pensions ranging from 1,244 euros for men to 989 euros for women, retired workers cannot even afford a retirement home, let alone enjoy their retirement. This is why, in accordance with a new citizens’ initiative act, the PTB is going to table a bill for a minimum retirement pension of 1,500 euro net. The law stipulates that the House must hear those tabling the bill, provided it collects 25,000 signatures. But our target is 100,000 signatures at least, both on paper and online. We are linking the campaign on the ground to the work carried out by our parliamentarians. The 1,500 euro net minimum retirement pension will not materialize automatically. Attaining it is going to require a struggle. We will have to develop our struggle into a mass movement: the 100,000 signatories (and more) behind the citizens’ initiative bill, the unions, civil society (social organizations, local organizations, etc.), all together. We are determined to win a victory, just as when we won the campaign against the “Turtel tax” in Flanders (additional taxation on every consumer’s energy bill), or like in the US campaign for a minimum wage of $15 was won.
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« Reply #629 on: May 23, 2020, 07:10:54 AM »

Belgium’s Left Breakthrough

Quote
In 2014, Syriza had been one of the big stories of the European elections and, with strong performances for Podemos in Spain and Sinn Féin in Ireland, the rise of the Nordic-Green Left bloc (GUE-NGL) was one of the stories of the election. Five years on, these left-wing alternatives have faded against the backdrop of an increasingly-strong populist right. But one country stands as an exception to this trend, providing a stark contrast to the failures elsewhere on the radical left.

How party on the rise PTB-PVDA gained 35 seats in Belgian parliament

A Marxist in the European Parliament

“We Are a Marxist Party That Believes in a Socialist Future”
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« Reply #630 on: May 23, 2020, 08:28:06 AM »
« Edited: May 23, 2020, 08:44:15 AM by Laki »

Quote
Besides, the two parties are not at their limit. More than a quarter of the Flemish can imagine voting for the PVDA. At Vlaams Belang that is over forty percent. Only the N-VA has a higher potential with 45 percent. All other parties have a potential of 30 percent.



Popularity poll!

De Wever most popular, followed by far-right chairman Tom Van Grieken who's going to become a dad. The bourgeois liberal De Croo (son of), and new riser on the left Conner Rousseau who reminds me of Macron are rising. Our PVDA chairman is fifth. Raoul Hedebouw does better as french-speaking communist than the two Green politicians. Dries Van Langenhove on the list disturbs me as well, as he's the Lauren Southern or Candace Owens from Belgium, campaigning for a white flemish identitarian society, and is basically a neo-nazi. 45% said they couldn't identify with any politician, a large group that shows how disenfranchised our society is from traditional politics.
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« Reply #631 on: May 23, 2020, 10:01:14 AM »

I thought Rousseau was on the left of the sp.a?

(Then again, this is the party that once fell head-over-heels for Bruno Tobback...)
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« Reply #632 on: May 23, 2020, 11:02:53 AM »

I thought Rousseau was on the left of the sp.a?

(Then again, this is the party that once fell head-over-heels for Bruno Tobback...)
No not really, or at least that is the feeling i get. Hans (i don't know his surname anymore) was on the left, and would've been a better chairman. All my preferred chairman candidates lost unfortunately Sad.
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Zinneke
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« Reply #633 on: May 24, 2020, 07:08:46 AM »

I thought Rousseau was on the left of the sp.a?

(Then again, this is the party that once fell head-over-heels for Bruno Tobback...)
No not really, or at least that is the feeling i get. Hans (i don't know his surname anymore) was on the left, and would've been a better chairman. All my preferred chairman candidates lost unfortunately Sad.

Hans Bonte? He wasn't really on the left. He's a so called Red Lion, one of the last of its breed : a flamingant socialist.

Rousseau is hard to characterise really. Worked his way up the ranks of the party so not a usurper type, definitely not on the left of the group, definitely not Tobback either. Close to the Combrez wing I guess.
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« Reply #634 on: May 24, 2020, 08:55:50 AM »

I thought Rousseau was on the left of the sp.a?

(Then again, this is the party that once fell head-over-heels for Bruno Tobback...)
No not really, or at least that is the feeling i get. Hans (i don't know his surname anymore) was on the left, and would've been a better chairman. All my preferred chairman candidates lost unfortunately Sad.

Hans Bonte? He wasn't really on the left. He's a so called Red Lion, one of the last of its breed : a flamingant socialist.

Rousseau is hard to characterise really. Worked his way up the ranks of the party so not a usurper type, definitely not on the left of the group, definitely not Tobback either. Close to the Combrez wing I guess.
I liked Crombez, but yeah not so much Rousseau.

And i meant Hannes De Reu.
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« Reply #635 on: May 24, 2020, 09:29:20 AM »

Wait, how on Earth did the fascists from VB get to 24%?

Also, given that VB+N-VA are at 45% or so, any chance Flanders goes full Catalonia and actually tries to secede? I wonder what new Belgian resident Puigdemont thinks about it Tongue
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Zinneke
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« Reply #636 on: May 24, 2020, 09:47:12 AM »

Wait, how on Earth did the fascists from VB get to 24%?

Most likely because people are just fed up. Our politicans played house of cards at the peak of the crisis, and the N-VA's budget cuts program alongside De Wever's inability to tap into public sentiment during this crisis is costing his party dearly. VB's messaging is simple and they will always outflank the N-VA on every issue.

Quote
Also, given that VB+N-VA are at 45% or so, any chance Flanders goes full Catalonia and actually tries to secede? I wonder what new Belgian resident Puigdemont thinks about it Tongue

The last thing the (sane) nationalists in Flanders want at this stage is a referendum, because then BHV comes back into play, and there's a very serious risk of them losing the referendum given the actual issue of Flemish independence is nothing like the Catalan issue, in that most people don't really care about it. Only 10% of N-VA voters actually vote N-VA specifically for decentralisation, and with VB its just there as another edgy policy but they litterally run lists in Brussels with francophones saying the important priority is getting rid of immigrants.


I imagine Puigdemont is in favour but given he was sort of driven out of Flanders by virtue of only speaking...French with them...he will continue to reside in Waterloo.

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« Reply #637 on: May 24, 2020, 06:32:37 PM »

Wait, how on Earth did the fascists from VB get to 24%?

Most likely because people are just fed up. Our politicans played house of cards at the peak of the crisis, and the N-VA's budget cuts program alongside De Wever's inability to tap into public sentiment during this crisis is costing his party dearly. VB's messaging is simple and they will always outflank the N-VA on every issue.

Quote
Also, given that VB+N-VA are at 45% or so, any chance Flanders goes full Catalonia and actually tries to secede? I wonder what new Belgian resident Puigdemont thinks about it Tongue

The last thing the (sane) nationalists in Flanders want at this stage is a referendum, because then BHV comes back into play, and there's a very serious risk of them losing the referendum given the actual issue of Flemish independence is nothing like the Catalan issue, in that most people don't really care about it. Only 10% of N-VA voters actually vote N-VA specifically for decentralisation, and with VB its just there as another edgy policy but they litterally run lists in Brussels with francophones saying the important priority is getting rid of immigrants.


I imagine Puigdemont is in favour but given he was sort of driven out of Flanders by virtue of only speaking...French with them...he will continue to reside in Waterloo.



So does that mean that the nationalist strategy would be to shake the belgian state around enough that it kind of just falls apart without popular input?
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Zinneke
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« Reply #638 on: May 25, 2020, 01:35:00 AM »

Wait, how on Earth did the fascists from VB get to 24%?

Most likely because people are just fed up. Our politicans played house of cards at the peak of the crisis, and the N-VA's budget cuts program alongside De Wever's inability to tap into public sentiment during this crisis is costing his party dearly. VB's messaging is simple and they will always outflank the N-VA on every issue.

Quote
Also, given that VB+N-VA are at 45% or so, any chance Flanders goes full Catalonia and actually tries to secede? I wonder what new Belgian resident Puigdemont thinks about it Tongue

The last thing the (sane) nationalists in Flanders want at this stage is a referendum, because then BHV comes back into play, and there's a very serious risk of them losing the referendum given the actual issue of Flemish independence is nothing like the Catalan issue, in that most people don't really care about it. Only 10% of N-VA voters actually vote N-VA specifically for decentralisation, and with VB its just there as another edgy policy but they litterally run lists in Brussels with francophones saying the important priority is getting rid of immigrants.


I imagine Puigdemont is in favour but given he was sort of driven out of Flanders by virtue of only speaking...French with them...he will continue to reside in Waterloo.



So does that mean that the nationalist strategy would be to shake the belgian state around enough that it kind of just falls apart without popular input?

Yes, the N-VA are very open about it. They want to make the Walloons want to proceed to state break up by having as hard a right-wing policy as possible, and also by defunding and stripping any federal power possible enough for it to just wither away.
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« Reply #639 on: May 25, 2020, 02:42:34 AM »

Wait, how on Earth did the fascists from VB get to 24%?

Most likely because people are just fed up. Our politicans played house of cards at the peak of the crisis, and the N-VA's budget cuts program alongside De Wever's inability to tap into public sentiment during this crisis is costing his party dearly. VB's messaging is simple and they will always outflank the N-VA on every issue.

Quote
Also, given that VB+N-VA are at 45% or so, any chance Flanders goes full Catalonia and actually tries to secede? I wonder what new Belgian resident Puigdemont thinks about it Tongue

The last thing the (sane) nationalists in Flanders want at this stage is a referendum, because then BHV comes back into play, and there's a very serious risk of them losing the referendum given the actual issue of Flemish independence is nothing like the Catalan issue, in that most people don't really care about it. Only 10% of N-VA voters actually vote N-VA specifically for decentralisation, and with VB its just there as another edgy policy but they litterally run lists in Brussels with francophones saying the important priority is getting rid of immigrants.


I imagine Puigdemont is in favour but given he was sort of driven out of Flanders by virtue of only speaking...French with them...he will continue to reside in Waterloo.



So does that mean that the nationalist strategy would be to shake the belgian state around enough that it kind of just falls apart without popular input?

Yes, the N-VA are very open about it. They want to make the Walloons want to proceed to state break up by having as hard a right-wing policy as possible, and also by defunding and stripping any federal power possible enough for it to just wither away.
VB >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> neoliberal N-VA

Meanwhile Mp DVL got caught in a lockdown party
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« Reply #640 on: May 25, 2020, 09:06:12 AM »
« Edited: May 25, 2020, 10:59:00 AM by Velasco »

Wait, how on Earth did the fascists from VB get to 24%?

Most likely because people are just fed up. Our politicans played house of cards at the peak of the crisis, and the N-VA's budget cuts program alongside De Wever's inability to tap into public sentiment during this crisis is costing his party dearly. VB's messaging is simple and they will always outflank the N-VA on every issue.

Quote
Also, given that VB+N-VA are at 45% or so, any chance Flanders goes full Catalonia and actually tries to secede? I wonder what new Belgian resident Puigdemont thinks about it Tongue

The last thing the (sane) nationalists in Flanders want at this stage is a referendum, because then BHV comes back into play, and there's a very serious risk of them losing the referendum given the actual issue of Flemish independence is nothing like the Catalan issue, in that most people don't really care about it. Only 10% of N-VA voters actually vote N-VA specifically for decentralisation, and with VB its just there as another edgy policy but they litterally run lists in Brussels with francophones saying the important priority is getting rid of immigrants.


I imagine Puigdemont is in favour but given he was sort of driven out of Flanders by virtue of only speaking...French with them...he will continue to reside in Waterloo.



So does that mean that the nationalist strategy would be to shake the belgian state around enough that it kind of just falls apart without popular input?

Yes, the N-VA are very open about it. They want to make the Walloons want to proceed to state break up by having as hard a right-wing policy as possible, and also by defunding and stripping any federal power possible enough for it to just wither away.

Well, Puigdemont would like that Spain becomes in a rump state and the N-VA wants to weaken the Belgian state. So they have a lot in common, even though it's a tragedy that Puigdemont speaks French instead of Dutch language. As you say the situations in Flanders and Catalonia are different, but anyway their national independence projects have a common obstacle as the EU is opposing the split of member states. So Puigdemont and other Catalan nationalists are turning from Europeism to Euroscepticism, while I suppose Flemish nationalists have been always against a federal Europe (right?)
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« Reply #641 on: May 25, 2020, 11:15:08 AM »

Wait, how on Earth did the fascists from VB get to 24%?

Most likely because people are just fed up. Our politicans played house of cards at the peak of the crisis, and the N-VA's budget cuts program alongside De Wever's inability to tap into public sentiment during this crisis is costing his party dearly. VB's messaging is simple and they will always outflank the N-VA on every issue.

Quote
Also, given that VB+N-VA are at 45% or so, any chance Flanders goes full Catalonia and actually tries to secede? I wonder what new Belgian resident Puigdemont thinks about it Tongue

The last thing the (sane) nationalists in Flanders want at this stage is a referendum, because then BHV comes back into play, and there's a very serious risk of them losing the referendum given the actual issue of Flemish independence is nothing like the Catalan issue, in that most people don't really care about it. Only 10% of N-VA voters actually vote N-VA specifically for decentralisation, and with VB its just there as another edgy policy but they litterally run lists in Brussels with francophones saying the important priority is getting rid of immigrants.


I imagine Puigdemont is in favour but given he was sort of driven out of Flanders by virtue of only speaking...French with them...he will continue to reside in Waterloo.



So does that mean that the nationalist strategy would be to shake the belgian state around enough that it kind of just falls apart without popular input?

Yes, the N-VA are very open about it. They want to make the Walloons want to proceed to state break up by having as hard a right-wing policy as possible, and also by defunding and stripping any federal power possible enough for it to just wither away.

Well, Puigdemont would like that Spain becomes in a rump state and the N-VA wants to weaken the Belgian state. So they have a lot in common, even though it's a tragedy that Puigdemont speaks French instead of Dutch language. As you say the situations in Flanders and Catalonia are different, but anyway their national independence projects have a common obstacle as the EU is opposing the split of member states. So Puigdemont and other Catalan nationalists are turning from Europeism to Euroscepticism, while I suppose Flemish nationalists have been always against a federal Europe (right?)

In the old days Volksunie were one of the architects of the idea of a Europe of the Regions. Nowadays the Flemish nationalists range from mildly cynical eurocriticism to outright euroscepticism yes.
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« Reply #642 on: May 25, 2020, 12:27:04 PM »

Federal MP Dries Van Langenhove caught at lockdown party
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crals
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« Reply #643 on: May 25, 2020, 01:00:18 PM »

Weren't Flemish nationalists hoping that the EU would take over the powers of the Belgian state, removing the need for it?
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« Reply #644 on: May 25, 2020, 01:07:46 PM »

Weren't Flemish nationalists hoping that the EU would take over the powers of the Belgian state, removing the need for it?
I don't know.

Only thing i know is that Flemish independence has become less relevant. VB calls for it. They did yesterday in a debate, and state reforms / confederacy are issues that are way more relevant and pushed for by certain parties. I'm not in favour of it. I want to centralize the country's institutions (not all of them, but some). That doesn't mean you can be proud of your nation. I'm certainly proud to be Flemish, and we have a great history, but i'm also a Belgicist and for governing purposes, we need to work better together.

Decentralization certainly did cost lives for COVID-19 because of all those governments, parliaments and institutions. Healthcare should be federalized. Climate change should be federalized, period. In terms of climate change, it would even be ideal if we were able to take action on a global level. Now, there are only agreements which are not strictly followed and guidelines which are not followed as well.
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Velasco
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« Reply #645 on: May 25, 2020, 01:19:54 PM »
« Edited: May 25, 2020, 02:17:19 PM by Velasco »

In what concerns Spain the PNV still remains in that Europe of the Regions project, but Puigdemont is moving away from the pragmatism of the old CiU in every way possible. I guess the old Volksunie had more in common with the former in that respect

Out of curiosity, why Flemish nationalism is so right wing? Is there any kind of left wing Flemish nationalism? Was the Volskunie a 'social-christian' party like our traditional Basque nationalists?
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Zinneke
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« Reply #646 on: May 25, 2020, 03:55:43 PM »
« Edited: May 28, 2020, 04:09:41 PM by Zinneke »

Weren't Flemish nationalists hoping that the EU would take over the powers of the Belgian state, removing the need for it?

That was the original idea but De Wever said he can't see the EU take further powers anymore, hence why he said a Belgian shell could still exist for the army.

Some flamingants hope the EU may take administrative power of the Brussels region and then solve the Brussels Question, which alongside the debt is the main obstacle to independence. Essentially creating the same constitutional issue as the District of Columbia in the USA though, so the Brussels politicians are totally against it.


This the same guy that called people doing lockdown countdown parties assassins and implied immigrants would not respect the rules.

In what concerns Spain the PNV still remains in that Europe of the Regions project, but Puigdemont is moving away from the pragmatism of the old CiU in every way possible. I guess the old Volksunie had more in common with the former in that respect

Out of curiosity, why Flemish nationalism is so right wing? Is there any kind of left wing Flemish nationalism? Was the Volskunie a 'social-christian' party like our traditional Basque nationalists?

Volksunie in the 60s onwards was very secular, very ahead of its time in terms of social issues, very similar to Défi now, although it had a christian democratic wing that mostly sided with the N-VA when Volksunie split between SPIRIT and NVA. The lower clergy in Flanders has traditionally been flamingant and very right-wing since democracy began as opposed to the higher clergy which is estbalishmenty, Royalist, very tied to CD&V, the pillar and socially christian, although the lower clergy can vary.

Flemish nationalism is right-wing because most of modern flemish nationalism (the N in N-VA) is based on two democracies theory and the idea that Flanders is subsidising Wallonia and the rest of poorer Europe. Its a bourgeois nationalism as such, as opposed to its previous incarnation under Volksunie, which towed more anti-colonial narratives of francophone encroachment on Flemish culture and Belgium being a French colonial project.

But a second reason is just the emergence of a successful Flemish far right in Vlaams Blok/Vlaams Belang that had a strong strategy of re-enforcing Flemish identity as part of a broad set of values including racial nationalism, anti-immigration, anti-political sentiment, francophobia, social conservatism, social movement and order, violence as a means to an end, using all sorts of activities and social movements to promote themselves.

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Is there any kind of left wing Flemish nationalism?

Flemish left-wing nationalism from the 60s to the 90s was very focused on cultural emancipation of Flanders rather than economic, but it even had a strong Maoist front as they believed the Flemish class character to be inherently rural poor peasantry, and indeed that is how the PVDA (now PVDA/PTB) was founded - very much a part of the anti-Francophone elite "Leuven Vlaams/Walen Buiten'' movement before Martens drifted them towards unitarism. Once cultural emancipation was achieved with federalism the left-wing nationalists made a somewhat fatal mistake of the split and tying their mast to AGALEV (now Groen) and sp.a and sort of withering away within those organisations institutionally, while still pressuring the parties to stand up for Flemish interests. N-VA on the other hand handled their cartel with CD&V perfectly, largely thanks to De Wever's political acumen, outflanking the former on every issue when they split. Keep in mind N-VA emerged after a lengthy political and constitutional crisis and an economic recession.  

Left-wing nationalists still exist within the structures of some of the non-nationalist parties. The "red Lions" of the sp.a like aforementioned Bonte. Groen also has an offshoot of Spirit. Bert Anciaux, one of the leading figures of Volskunie and founders of Spirit, was associated with sp.a for a while and I think still is. Then you have organisations like Meervoud which are testimonial campaign groups that regularly turn up to pro-PKK rallies and other unrepresented peoples causes, although they are a strange bunch.
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« Reply #647 on: May 26, 2020, 10:29:38 PM »

Our 9 ministers of healthcare

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Zinneke
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« Reply #648 on: May 27, 2020, 08:36:59 AM »

All probable have 9 other mandates too
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Velasco
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« Reply #649 on: May 27, 2020, 09:28:06 PM »



Volksunie was very secular, very ahead of its time in terms of social issues, very similar to Défi now, although it had a christian democratic wing that mostly sided with the N-VA when Volksunie split between SPIRIT and NVA. The lower clergy in Flanders has traditionally been flamingant and very right-wing since democracy began as opposed to the higher clergy which is estbalishmenty, Royalist, very tied to CD&V, the pillar and socially christian, although the lower clergy can vary (...)

Of course, I got confused. The CD&V is the social christian party. Thank you for the explanation about Flemish nationalism
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