Have you ever had a religious or supernatural experience? (user search)
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  Have you ever had a religious or supernatural experience? (search mode)
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Author Topic: Have you ever had a religious or supernatural experience?  (Read 6313 times)
RFayette
Junior Chimp
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Posts: 9,952
United States


« on: April 09, 2021, 10:33:30 PM »
« edited: April 09, 2021, 10:43:42 PM by RFayette »

I have never encountered any evidence that would make me presume else wise
And so you take all accounts of miracles when someone tells you of them as false, as you require your own first person experience to admit not even the actuality of something, but even the potentiality of it?

Christians don't become Christians because they see miracles happen. They see miracles happen because they are Christians.


In fact, Craig Keener has pointed out that miracles are the most common among the mission field, areas with limited prior exposure to Christianity.   Sources like the China Christian Council (see 14:20) shows a large percent of Christian converts (up to 90 pct in rural areas) in China cite a healed illness as a reason for conversion*to Christianity*.  So it is clear that God, among other means, provides clear testimony to the gospel to people who have never been exposed to the faith before through miraculous healing.    

A few more points from 17:00:  Similarly, in an area in Suriname, a non-Christian man had his arm (which had been paralyzed all his life) instantly shot up, and that led to a "people movement" in Nickerie, Suriname, where tens of thousands of people converted in the area which previously only had a few hundred Christians.  We also see evidence from Yale historian Ramsay MacMullen that the leading cause of conversion to Christianity in the 3rd-4th century was healing and exorcisms, and scholar JP Moreland estimates that up to 70% of the growth in Evangelicalism worldwide over the past few decades has been linked to signs, wonders, and miraculous healing.

Throughout history, God has spoken clearly and forcefully to people throughout many nations with these glorious acts of power, expanding the kingdom of God throughout the world.   
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RFayette
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 9,952
United States


« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2021, 08:28:51 AM »

I do not trust Craig Keener's word on the efficacy of Christian miracles any more than I trust the word of David Miscavige on the efficacy of Dianetics. If there is ever a consensus in the scientific community that miracles are real-- say, on the same level as global warming-- then I'll get back to you. But cult members can't be trusted to represent their cult using facts.
This is absurd. There is no “scientific consensus” on the existence of Abraham Lincoln, or on the existence of Columbus, or on the existence of matter itself. The idea that a very narrow field such as science holds all the answers to everything and will eventually abolish the humanities is absurd. Now, it is true that 35-40% of scientists are Christians who believe in the Resurrection of Jesus, and this view is becoming more common among scientists. (This is one of two subgroups in America where religiosity is increasing.) What percent have to be Christians for you to affirm that miracles and science are not in conflict?

Experts in the field of history (which is the field of study relevant to the existence of Lincoln) agree that Lincoln exists. However, experts in the field of medicine (the field of study relevant to the existence of medical miracles) do not agree that miracles exist, and would laugh in your face if you suggested that prayer could provide an actual remedy for a person beyond the placebo effect.

What else needs to be said?

Most doctors believe in miracles, and 55 percent claim to have seen one themselves.  Admittedly, you can quibble with the survey wording, but it is clear a large percentage of doctors do in fact believe in miracles.
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RFayette
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 9,952
United States


« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2021, 08:50:44 PM »

'A national poll of 1,100 physicians from different religious faiths asked whether they believed in miracles;'

I don't see anything saying unaffiliated people were excluded from the survey.  I don't have access to the original study, but this seems unlikely and rather the press statement is just saying a wide variety of faiths were included among the respondents.
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