Have you ever had a religious or supernatural experience?
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  Have you ever had a religious or supernatural experience?
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Author Topic: Have you ever had a religious or supernatural experience?  (Read 6315 times)
Kingpoleon
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« Reply #50 on: April 10, 2021, 01:15:21 AM »

Science and medicine are not perfect, headleable illnese may be misdiagnozed and rare mutations may lead to results that are hard for medical science to explain. none of that suggests the existence of a deity and even if it does nothing indicates it would be the religious deity that humanity would be familiar with.
”Don’t worry, science will explain it eventually.” is a rather sad creed. Scientism is the scourge of a mind convinced that Nothing But Science matters - it is a dogma which makes Ken Ham look like an intellectual giant who, quite frankly, crushed Bill Nye. Neil DeGrasse Tyson, Carl Sagan, Bill Nye, Richard Dawkins, they all make a rather common mistake: they assume science is best because they are scientists. Like Plato, they think everything would be perfect if people just like them ran everything. Like Plato, they are wrong on this count.
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John Dule
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« Reply #51 on: April 10, 2021, 02:29:42 AM »
« Edited: April 10, 2021, 03:16:49 AM by Egotistic Egoist / Materialistic Materialist »

I do not trust Craig Keener's word on the efficacy of Christian miracles any more than I trust the word of David Miscavige on the efficacy of Dianetics. If there is ever a consensus in the scientific community that miracles are real-- say, on the same level as global warming-- then I'll get back to you. But cult members can't be trusted to represent their cult using facts.
This is absurd. There is no “scientific consensus” on the existence of Abraham Lincoln, or on the existence of Columbus, or on the existence of matter itself. The idea that a very narrow field such as science holds all the answers to everything and will eventually abolish the humanities is absurd. Now, it is true that 35-40% of scientists are Christians who believe in the Resurrection of Jesus, and this view is becoming more common among scientists. (This is one of two subgroups in America where religiosity is increasing.) What percent have to be Christians for you to affirm that miracles and science are not in conflict?

Experts in the field of history (which is the field of study relevant to the existence of Lincoln) agree that Lincoln exists. However, experts in the field of medicine (the field of study relevant to the existence of medical miracles) do not agree that miracles exist, and would laugh in your face if you suggested that prayer could provide an actual remedy for a person beyond the placebo effect.

What else needs to be said?
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Vosem
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« Reply #52 on: April 10, 2021, 03:38:37 AM »

Yes, but I was on DMT and was vaguely expecting it going in...
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Just Passion Through
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« Reply #53 on: April 10, 2021, 03:54:07 AM »

I briefly felt the paw of my first dog, who had recently died, rubbing my back when I was a child after quietly praying for her to comfort me because I couldn't sleep. I whispered "Thank you, Cody", and then it stopped.

That was my most intimate experience with the supernatural because the metaphysical lining between the living and the dead became so thin as to be penetrated, and as a result I was able to feel the touch of an animal's spirit. I was not under the influence of any drugs. Both my parents were asleep. It was literally just me on my futon, and I felt her touch.

I cannot prove or replicate that experience, but I also don't seek to profit from it because I believe that denigrates the meaning of the miracle. It was one of my many experiences with the supernatural, which mostly happened in Connecticut which is the nation's capital of ghost sightings and paranormal experiences.

But for me, it was a gift. And just because that experience cannot be replicated or examined in a laboratory doesn't mean it wasn't real. God allowed me to reunite with my dog, who'd been in our family since before I was born and literally watched over me as an infant when my parents were away, for one last time. And that's good enough for me, regardless of what naysayers think.

It is also why I believe that we are reunited with our pets after we pass on, contrary to conservative Christian views that anyone not made in the image of God cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

And that was the moment I realized there is far more to the universe than we can experience with our material senses. Even if I were to reject Christ for another religion, I could never forsake God or the existence of a deity. Still, I cannot and will not ever be separated from the grace of Christ.
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afleitch
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« Reply #54 on: April 10, 2021, 04:17:48 AM »

You're all being very defensive here which but what's worse, not discussing and reasoning the similar claims of miracles from adherents of different faiths due to the claimed intervention of other deities, spirits or ancestors.
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« Reply #55 on: April 10, 2021, 04:47:54 AM »

You're all being very defensive here which but what's worse, not discussing and reasoning the similar claims of miracles from adherents of different faiths due to the claimed intervention of other deities, spirits or ancestors.

I'm not trying to come across as defensive here, but plenty of people on this forum already think I'm mentally unstable for reasons you are familiar with.

I certainly do not rebuke the miracles or supernatural experiences of people from other faiths. I believe in Christianity because I believe it is true, but God's very nature is incomprehensible aside from that one trait that all mainstream theistic religions agree on: God's love. A love that's stronger than any human could give you on earth.

If a non-Christian told me about a supernatural experience they had, I would not argue with them or try to discredit their experience. Instead I would listen and humbly try to dissect, with my small finite mind, what that experience meant to the person who had it and what its purpose may have been.
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Former President tack50
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« Reply #56 on: April 10, 2021, 07:17:46 AM »


Put another way, have you ever had a weird experience of some kind or another you still can't quite explain? My experience has been that even the most committed atheists and materialists usually have, just as even the most committed religious people have usually had doubts at some point.
I mean, the Dule argument on this line of reasoning would be that there is always a rational explanation. Even when you do not know what said rational explanation is.

Basically believing unironically on the "oh it's just the wind" of horror movies. But life isn't a horror movie and it is indeed "just the wind" Tongue
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Diabolical Materialism
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« Reply #57 on: April 10, 2021, 08:23:59 AM »

I have never encountered any evidence that would make me presume else wise
And so you take all accounts of miracles when someone tells you of them as false, as you require your own first person experience to admit not even the actuality of something, but even the potentiality of it?
Are you being deliberately obtuse or is this a genuine lack of intelligence? My disbelief in miracles is not grounded in the fact that none have happened to me or that I've never personally borne witness to one, but rather that I have never seen any hard data or academic evidence that isn't based on quackery or psuedoscholarly bullsh**t.

If this is as academically robust as you seem to think it is, then I'd be highly curious to know how Keener arrived at this number and why you are inclined to believe it. The foundation of your argument in this thread seems to be an outright fallacy and straight up and down third grader logic. That because a lot of people claim that a miracle happened to them that ergo some of them must be telling the truth. That's based entirely in conjecture and no actual empirical facts and you know it.

Adding five or six names of theologians and academics to your posts isn't particularly impressive. Great, Craig Keener thinks this, Ethel Lipsh**tz thinks that. But why? It doesn't seem like even you, the one quoting these supposed experts, has engaged all that deeply with their statements on the matter. You seem to have read just enough to know their broader claim, and that an impressive academic sounding person is the one making it.
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RFayette
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« Reply #58 on: April 10, 2021, 08:28:51 AM »

I do not trust Craig Keener's word on the efficacy of Christian miracles any more than I trust the word of David Miscavige on the efficacy of Dianetics. If there is ever a consensus in the scientific community that miracles are real-- say, on the same level as global warming-- then I'll get back to you. But cult members can't be trusted to represent their cult using facts.
This is absurd. There is no “scientific consensus” on the existence of Abraham Lincoln, or on the existence of Columbus, or on the existence of matter itself. The idea that a very narrow field such as science holds all the answers to everything and will eventually abolish the humanities is absurd. Now, it is true that 35-40% of scientists are Christians who believe in the Resurrection of Jesus, and this view is becoming more common among scientists. (This is one of two subgroups in America where religiosity is increasing.) What percent have to be Christians for you to affirm that miracles and science are not in conflict?

Experts in the field of history (which is the field of study relevant to the existence of Lincoln) agree that Lincoln exists. However, experts in the field of medicine (the field of study relevant to the existence of medical miracles) do not agree that miracles exist, and would laugh in your face if you suggested that prayer could provide an actual remedy for a person beyond the placebo effect.

What else needs to be said?

Most doctors believe in miracles, and 55 percent claim to have seen one themselves.  Admittedly, you can quibble with the survey wording, but it is clear a large percentage of doctors do in fact believe in miracles.
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afleitch
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« Reply #59 on: April 10, 2021, 08:51:54 AM »

I do not trust Craig Keener's word on the efficacy of Christian miracles any more than I trust the word of David Miscavige on the efficacy of Dianetics. If there is ever a consensus in the scientific community that miracles are real-- say, on the same level as global warming-- then I'll get back to you. But cult members can't be trusted to represent their cult using facts.
This is absurd. There is no “scientific consensus” on the existence of Abraham Lincoln, or on the existence of Columbus, or on the existence of matter itself. The idea that a very narrow field such as science holds all the answers to everything and will eventually abolish the humanities is absurd. Now, it is true that 35-40% of scientists are Christians who believe in the Resurrection of Jesus, and this view is becoming more common among scientists. (This is one of two subgroups in America where religiosity is increasing.) What percent have to be Christians for you to affirm that miracles and science are not in conflict?

Experts in the field of history (which is the field of study relevant to the existence of Lincoln) agree that Lincoln exists. However, experts in the field of medicine (the field of study relevant to the existence of medical miracles) do not agree that miracles exist, and would laugh in your face if you suggested that prayer could provide an actual remedy for a person beyond the placebo effect.

What else needs to be said?

Most doctors believe in miracles, and 55 percent claim to have seen one themselves.  Admittedly, you can quibble with the survey wording, but it is clear a large percentage of doctors do in fact believe in miracles.


https://www.hcplive.com/view/3635

'Those surveyed represent physicians from Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, and Buddhist religious traditions.'

Selecting a sample of religious physicians will probably give you that result.
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Starry Eyed Jagaloon
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« Reply #60 on: April 10, 2021, 09:24:07 AM »

I have never encountered any evidence that would make me presume else wise
And so you take all accounts of miracles when someone tells you of them as false, as you require your own first person experience to admit not even the actuality of something, but even the potentiality of it?

Christians don't become Christians because they see miracles happen. They see miracles happen because they are Christians.


In fact, Craig Keener has pointed out that miracles are the most common among the mission field, areas with limited prior exposure to Christianity. Sources like the China Christian Council shows a large percent of Christian converts (up to 90 pct in rural areas) in China cite a healed illness as a reason for conversion*to Christianity*.  So it is clear that God, among other means, provides clear testimony to the gospel to people who have never been exposed to the faith before through miraculous healing.

Hm...I wonder if the issue here could be the preexisting superstition and undereducation of rural China being contextualized in a new light, not sickness magically disappearing. That's some poorly founded logic.
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Starry Eyed Jagaloon
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« Reply #61 on: April 10, 2021, 09:26:13 AM »


Yes it can.
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Battista Minola 1616
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« Reply #62 on: April 10, 2021, 10:14:05 AM »

I tend to consider my religious conversion last August/September, well, a religious experience. Otherwise, I don't think so, at least using what seem to be the narrow, conventional, definitions of these terms.




No. But then again, I've never done drugs, so that probably helps.

You are so right. I agree wholeheartedly. I am compliant with Atlas rules Dule logic.
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Mopsus
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« Reply #63 on: April 10, 2021, 10:22:11 AM »

I meditation I once entered a disassociative state in which I perceived myself from a first and second - second, not third - person perspective simultaneously. I would call this a supernatural experience, since it’s the sort of thing that isn’t normally supposed to happen.
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Cassius
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« Reply #64 on: April 10, 2021, 10:33:37 AM »

Every time I listen to Barry White.
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If my soul was made of stone
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« Reply #65 on: April 10, 2021, 10:39:55 AM »

I've already spoken twice about the one mundane experience that I've had that was closest to a "miracle" of sorts, so I won't repeat it here. The next-closest thing was my lone attempt at a magical working involving the ritual use of my own blood, which ended up with 2020 ballot-counting woes and a planned project with one of my few IRL friends that I'd hoped to accelerate through the act getting put on ice indefinitely.

I see nothing wrong with interpreting events with a profound personal meaning as religious experiences, if it aids one in feeling at one and at ease with forces greater than oneself. The realm of personal meaning is its own sphere, separate from rationality, and it should be granted respect in its nonlinearities and at times defiance of typical logic. We as a species did not develop entirely towards rationality, and respecting the untamed parts of the human spirit is something that I strive to honor in my faith. In certain ways I am pathologically predisposed towards magical thinking and irrationality, but I see fit to embrace it in a certain capacity as a part of my identity rather than try to force it down in the name of conformity and capitalist ideals of productivity. Someone like Gilles Deleuze might argue that such a state of mind makes one shamanic. Experiencing the spiritual in the mundane has greatly enhanced my sense of being alive in a fundamental sense, and I'd like to think it's brought me closer to the forces that I worship.

Is it not itself a religious experience that it is the constant experience of the love of my Goddess that grounds me?
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Kingpoleon
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« Reply #66 on: April 10, 2021, 12:23:02 PM »

Experts in the field of history (which is the field of study relevant to the existence of Lincoln) agree that Lincoln exists. However, experts in the field of medicine (the field of study relevant to the existence of medical miracles) do not agree that miracles exist, and would laugh in your face if you suggested that prayer could provide an actual remedy for a person beyond the placebo effect.

What else needs to be said?
Experts in the field of theology (the field of study relevant to the existence of God and miracles) do agree that God and miracles do exist, and therefore they do.

If you insist on bringing in doctors, I am prepared to go there as well. Francis Collins was the director of the Humane Genome Project and has been the Director of the National Institutes of Health for over a decade. He is the world’s leading doctor and has been called the greatest living American. He readily affirms not only the potential of miracles, but that he actually believes in them.
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John Dule
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« Reply #67 on: April 10, 2021, 12:35:23 PM »

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Kingpoleon
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« Reply #68 on: April 10, 2021, 12:46:32 PM »

Perhaps I should be clearer, as it seems you have misunderstood me. I am not an advocate of faith healing - there are a number of theological problems for it. There is a clear and prescient difference between believing miracles happen and testing God by demanding they happen.
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John Dule
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« Reply #69 on: April 10, 2021, 12:49:29 PM »

Perhaps I should be clearer, as it seems you have misunderstood me. I am not an advocate of faith healing - there are a number of theological problems for it. There is a clear and prescient difference between believing miracles happen and testing God by demanding they happen.

Oh I see. So you believe that prayer works as a remedy in certain cases, but these results can't be reproduced in a scientific setting because that would be "testing God." What an airtight system of logic you've constructed.
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Kingpoleon
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« Reply #70 on: April 10, 2021, 01:04:21 PM »

Oh I see. So you believe that prayer works as a remedy in certain cases, but these results can't be reproduced in a scientific setting because that would be "testing God." What an airtight system of logic you've constructed.
It seems to me that is the position taken by the respected doctor you made a meme of.

No, I don’t think that prayer works as a pill. I do think that it can, in limited circumstances, cause spontaneous remissions, as I have heard both doctors and patients have said such on multiple occasions.
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Diabolical Materialism
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« Reply #71 on: April 10, 2021, 01:07:19 PM »

Oh I see. So you believe that prayer works as a remedy in certain cases, but these results can't be reproduced in a scientific setting because that would be "testing God." What an airtight system of logic you've constructed.
It seems to me that is the position taken by the respected doctor you made a meme of.

No, I don’t think that prayer works as a pill. I do think that it can, in limited circumstances, cause spontaneous remissions, as I have heard both doctors and patients have said such on multiple occasions.
What exactly is the doctor's position outside of a vague belief in the already vague concept of miracles? What exactly does he say about their utility and prevalence?  Or did you, once again, find someone prestigious who on face agrees with you and regurgitate a soundbite?
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Kingpoleon
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« Reply #72 on: April 10, 2021, 01:38:50 PM »

What exactly is the doctor's position outside of a vague belief in the already vague concept of miracles? What exactly does he say about their utility and prevalence?  Or did you, once again, find someone prestigious who on face agrees with you and regurgitate a soundbite?
This sort of attack is unwarranted and remains so. In response to asking for evidential sources, after providing several, you have now accused me of... presenting testimony that agrees with what I said? If that is the charge, I plead guilty.

And, it is important to note that Dule, after falsely claiming that several of the people I cited actually disproved what I said, has still not responded to the point made when citing them or their research.
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Diabolical Materialism
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« Reply #73 on: April 10, 2021, 02:10:10 PM »

What exactly is the doctor's position outside of a vague belief in the already vague concept of miracles? What exactly does he say about their utility and prevalence?  Or did you, once again, find someone prestigious who on face agrees with you and regurgitate a soundbite?
This sort of attack is unwarranted and remains so. In response to asking for evidential sources, after providing several, you have now accused me of... presenting testimony that agrees with what I said? If that is the charge, I plead guilty.

And, it is important to note that Dule, after falsely claiming that several of the people I cited actually disproved what I said, has still not responded to the point made when citing them or their research.
You haven't provided evidence is the thing. You've barely even provided a testimony. If you are going to use this doctor's belief in miracles then you need to be prepared to explain their reasoning behind it and why it matters. Else wise you're basing your belief in the legitimacy on the doctor's title and prestige alone, and worse yet you are expecting us to do the same.
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John Dule
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« Reply #74 on: April 10, 2021, 02:25:21 PM »

What exactly is the doctor's position outside of a vague belief in the already vague concept of miracles? What exactly does he say about their utility and prevalence?  Or did you, once again, find someone prestigious who on face agrees with you and regurgitate a soundbite?
This sort of attack is unwarranted and remains so. In response to asking for evidential sources, after providing several, you have now accused me of... presenting testimony that agrees with what I said? If that is the charge, I plead guilty.

And, it is important to note that Dule, after falsely claiming that several of the people I cited actually disproved what I said, has still not responded to the point made when citing them or their research.

You cited Bruce Greyson, a neuroscientist, as evidence that people who study the brain believe in Christian miracles. Greyson's own research describes near-death experiences as accompanied by "auditory hallucinations"-- not the Divine speaking into a person's mind, but their own mind tricking them. He co-authored this paper that repeatedly and explicitly describes these as "hallucinations." Regardless of what Greyson himself thinks on the matter, it is clear that he lacks sufficient evidence to stake his reputation on authoring a scientific article attributing these experiences to supernatural causes.

Medical miracle pushers are very much like Trump's "election fraud" lawyers. They will make extreme and absurd claims publicly, but when it comes to actually staking their reputations and careers on their assertions (for example, perjuring themselves to a court, or putting their names on a peer-reviewed article claiming there is objective evidence for the Divine), they inevitably back down.

In any case, I've already spent far more time looking into your claims than they deserve. I don't believe that you legitimately think that naming half a dozen fringe doctors constitutes incontrovertible evidence that the Christian god is real. It is clear (to any objective observer, anyway) that you hold your superstitions to a different standard of evidence than you do everything else. Getting bogged down in the specifics of cherrypicked Christian dogma ignores the broader point-- there is no medical consensus that medical miracles occur, and so there is no reason for a member of the public to take such claims seriously. I've never completely closed the door to supernatural occurrences, and if presented with actual evidence I would always take it into consideration. But the fact that you are willing to believe-- lacking the extraordinary proof you'd need to bolster your extraordinary claims-- is indicative of a shocking lack of inquisitiveness, self-awareness, and basic skepticism.
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