Marine Le Pen refuses to wear headscarf for meeting with Lebanon's Grand Mufti

[Antonio the Sixth]

Stunt.

[Middle-aged Europe]

In early 2015 - about two years before Ursula von der Leyen visited the country - the New York Times even wrote an article about Michelle Obama's headscarf-less visit to Saudia Arabia titled "Michelle Obama Praised for Bold Stand She Didn’t Take in Saudi Arabia".

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/29/world/middleeast/michelle-obama-praised-for-bold-stand-she-did-not-take.html?_r=0

[Hifly]

Reminds me of the German Defense Minister Ursula von der Leyen, who visited Saudi-Arabia in December and was asked to wear a headscarf when meeting with the Saudi men.

After which she replied: "I will certainly not wear a headscarf plus I'll choose my own clothing."



https://www.welt.de/icon/article160241319/Ich-setze-mir-kein-Kopftuch-auf-und-trage-Hosen.html

Stunt.

Should women be allowed to wear what they want?

This isn't the issue here.

Contrary to what Tender wrote above, von der Leyen was in fact *not* asked to wear a headscarve by the Saudis. However, she did gave an interview saying: ""I will certainly not wear a headscarf plus I'll choose my own clothing."

Also what CrabCake said.

Should women be allowed to wear what they choose in the presence of foreign dignitaries?

Nice try. Now take your strawman elsewhere, please.

I'll take that as a no.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Nobody should give women guff for dressing the way they want to unless they're exposing themselves or something. This goes for both the "muh barbarism" people and the "muh Islamophobia" people.

[Figueira]

I'm with CrabCake on this one.

[Citizen (The) Doctor]

what a cheap shot and she even got all the headlines she wanted.

would a saudi woman, who stand her ground and wore her - illegal - niqab in some western countries, get the same buzz?

     If she wishes to do so then I would support her just as I support Le Pen's choice here, but I think it is worth noting that in some Muslim countries women don't actually have the right to appear in public without the appropriate covering. It's an important detail that many of the people trying to appropriate the hijab as a feminist symbol don't realize.

It's also an important detail that the hijab was used as a symbol of solidarity between women during the Iranian Revolution. Everything has its own context.

[Green Line]

Glad to see it!  Hopefully one day that symbol of oppression and patriarchy will be in the dust bin of history.

[Associate Justice PiT]

what a cheap shot and she even got all the headlines she wanted.

would a saudi woman, who stand her ground and wore her - illegal - niqab in some western countries, get the same buzz?

     If she wishes to do so then I would support her just as I support Le Pen's choice here, but I think it is worth noting that in some Muslim countries women don't actually have the right to appear in public without the appropriate covering. It's an important detail that many of the people trying to appropriate the hijab as a feminist symbol don't realize.

It's also an important detail that the hijab was used as a symbol of solidarity between women during the Iranian Revolution. Everything has its own context.

     Used by the supporters of the revolution? Given that it was a religious conservative movement, that actually doesn't surprise me at all. Indeed, context is critically important here.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

What happened to courtesy to those whom you visit? If you visit someone's house, you are generally expected to follow their rules.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

what a cheap shot and she even got all the headlines she wanted.

would a saudi woman, who stand her ground and wore her - illegal - niqab in some western countries, get the same buzz?

     If she wishes to do so then I would support her just as I support Le Pen's choice here, but I think it is worth noting that in some Muslim countries women don't actually have the right to appear in public without the appropriate covering. It's an important detail that many of the people trying to appropriate the hijab as a feminist symbol don't realize.

It's also an important detail that the hijab was used as a symbol of solidarity between women during the Iranian Revolution. Everything has its own context.

     Used by the supporters of the revolution? Given that it was a religious conservative movement, that actually doesn't surprise me at all. Indeed, context is critically important here.

My impression was that the revolution itself was much broader and more heterogeneous than just "a religious conservative movement", despite that faction having eventually triumphed.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

what a cheap shot and she even got all the headlines she wanted.

would a saudi woman, who stand her ground and wore her - illegal - niqab in some western countries, get the same buzz?

     If she wishes to do so then I would support her just as I support Le Pen's choice here, but I think it is worth noting that in some Muslim countries women don't actually have the right to appear in public without the appropriate covering. It's an important detail that many of the people trying to appropriate the hijab as a feminist symbol don't realize.

It's also an important detail that the hijab was used as a symbol of solidarity between women during the Iranian Revolution. Everything has its own context.

     Used by the supporters of the revolution? Given that it was a religious conservative movement, that actually doesn't surprise me at all. Indeed, context is critically important here.

My impression was that the revolution itself was much broader and more heterogeneous than just "a religious conservative movement", despite that faction having eventually triumphed.

It started off as a general anti-Shah revolt, by a populace unhappy with corruption, suppression of religious suppression, and other things. It got hijacked by corrupt clerics.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

Glad to see it!  Hopefully one day that symbol of oppression and patriarchy will be in the dust bin of history.

Bans on it are nothing but a pretext to an eventual state assault on religion in general in the name of some Secular Order that we'll be living under in thirty years. Congratulations.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Glad to see it!  Hopefully one day that symbol of oppression and patriarchy will be in the dust bin of history.

Bans on it are nothing but a pretext to an eventual state assault on religion in general in the name of some Secular Order that we'll be living under in thirty years. Congratulations.

The FN, with its close and loving ties to the French Catholic hard-right, most certainly won't be imposing a "Secular Order" any time soon.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

Glad to see it!  Hopefully one day that symbol of oppression and patriarchy will be in the dust bin of history.

Bans on it are nothing but a pretext to an eventual state assault on religion in general in the name of some Secular Order that we'll be living under in thirty years. Congratulations.

The FN, with its close and loving ties to the French Catholic hard-right, most certainly won't be imposing a "Secular Order" any time soon.

Doesn't really matter, though, does it? The explicit reasons for things like this--"liberty", "fighting sexism", etc.--will only be advanced by religion's enemies in the coming years.  The left and the right frequently swap reasons for policies in favor of long-term goals based on circumstance.

[Green Line]

Glad to see it!  Hopefully one day that symbol of oppression and patriarchy will be in the dust bin of history.

Bans on it are nothing but a pretext to an eventual state assault on religion in general in the name of some Secular Order that we'll be living under in thirty years. Congratulations.

The FN, with its close and loving ties to the French Catholic hard-right, most certainly won't be imposing a "Secular Order" any time soon.

Doesn't really matter, though, does it? The explicit reasons for things like this--"liberty", "fighting sexism", etc.--will only be advanced by religion's enemies in the coming years.  The left and the right frequently swap reasons for policies in favor of long-term goals based on circumstance.

France is a unique case.  They need it.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Reminds me of the German Defense Minister Ursula von der Leyen, who visited Saudi-Arabia in December and was asked to wear a headscarf when meeting with the Saudi men.

After which she replied: "I will certainly not wear a headscarf plus I'll choose my own clothing."



https://www.welt.de/icon/article160241319/Ich-setze-mir-kein-Kopftuch-auf-und-trage-Hosen.html

Stunt.

Should women be allowed to wear what they want?

This isn't the issue here.

Contrary to what Tender wrote above, von der Leyen was in fact *not* asked to wear a headscarve by the Saudis. However, she did gave an interview saying: ""I will certainly not wear a headscarf plus I'll choose my own clothing."

Also what CrabCake said.

Should women be allowed to wear what they choose in the presence of foreign dignitaries?

Nice try. Now take your strawman elsewhere, please.

I'll take that as a no.

Put on ignore.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

ITT: Men criticizing a woman for dressing the way she wants while trying to break the glass ceiling.

Uh, no? Point me to a single post specifically criticizing her for not wearing the headscarf.

[Middle-aged Europe]

ITT: Men criticizing a woman for dressing the way she wants while trying to break the glass ceiling.

Uh, no? Point me to a single post specifically criticizing her for not wearing the headscarf.

Of course not. It's a straw man attack.