BREAKING: Cruz and Sanders to debate Obamacare on CNN Next Tuesday

[heatcharger]

Jesus Christ why do people insist on relitigating the primary? Living in yesteryear does absolutely nothing to advance progressive causes.

Anyways, I thought they both did what they usually did well but like I expected, Cruz never addressed what would happen to people who got healthcare, and Bernie failed to clearly articulate how he's gonna pay for Medicare-for-all.

[ProgressiveCanadian]

Ted Cruz won.  He gave actual facts and stats on why Obamacare is bad, while Bernie just tried to play to emotion, with no real substance.  And, this closing speech is an outline for the replacement.

...and Cruz had no replacement plan.

[Trapsy]

This debate has something that was completely missing from the Presidential general election. Discussion of issues.

Not that hard this time with no Trump. Sanders and Cruz are both awful senators with awful ideas but they at least know their issues well enough.

No Clinton either, all she had were platitudes.

Platitudes like free tuition college and medicare for all?

Where did she support that on the campaign trail? She obviously didn't express those issues as vigorously as Bernie is tonight.

I think both used platitudes but Bernie were more sincere just disagree with implementing his ideas.

[Trapsy]

Jesus Christ why do people insist on relitigating the primary? Living in yesteryear does absolutely nothing to advance progressive causes.

Anyways, I thought they both did what they usually did well but like I expected, Cruz never addressed what would happen to people who got healthcare, and Bernie failed to clearly articulate how he's gonna pay for Medicare-for-all.

They both are against Obamacare in some form but can't counter with a reasonable plan.

[(Still) muted by Kalwejt until March 31]

Interestingly, Ted Cruz's plan does not touch Obamacare's changes to Medicare and Medicaid, only removes Obamacare rules on the individual market:

http://www.vox.com/2016/11/17/13626438/obamacare-replacement-plans-comparison

[Deblano]

Ted Cruz won.  He gave actual facts and stats on why Obamacare is bad, while Bernie just tried to play to emotion, with no real substance.  And, this closing speech is an outline for the replacement.

...and Cruz had no replacement plan.

It will be replaced with "a free market system"

There. No specifics needed. We can all go home now.

[100% pro-life no matter what]

Ted Cruz won.  He gave actual facts and stats on why Obamacare is bad, while Bernie just tried to play to emotion, with no real substance.  And, this closing speech is an outline for the replacement.

...and Cruz had no replacement plan.

It will be replaced with "a free market system"

There. No specifics needed. We can all go home now.

HSAs (but the level of government involvement here should be decreased substantially)

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Jesus Christ why do people insist on relitigating the primary? Living in yesteryear does absolutely nothing to advance progressive causes.

Anyways, I thought they both did what they usually did well but like I expected, Cruz never addressed what would happen to people who got healthcare, and Bernie failed to clearly articulate how he's gonna pay for Medicare-for-all.

The Clintons set progressive causes back decades, so I'm damn interested in having them not have control of the party any more.

[Crumpets]

This debate has something that was completely missing from the Presidential general election. Discussion of issues.

Not that hard this time with no Trump. Sanders and Cruz are both awful senators with awful ideas but they at least know their issues well enough.

No Clinton either, all she had were platitudes.

She didn't have people call Melania a rapist or threaten to jail Trump.

Both candidates were terrible picks by their party members, Clinton had paid trolls...I really don't see how you can defend that.

Are you still on that overblown "correct the record" BS? Just move on and stop trying to pour salt into still open wounds.

Correct the record producing trolls has been proven. If you have links disproving that fact be my guest.

That's not how burden of proof works.

You deny these facts as well? Plenty of evidence has been proven, all it takes is a little research. Sadly i trust you can't since you were one of the blinded Clintonites on this forum back in 2016.

From Mother Jones:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Sounds like literally any other political action committee.

From the Washington Post:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Again, sounds like basically any oppo group.

From Slate:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

So is any surrogate now a "paid troll," given that "troll" is usually defined as someone who "purposely posts inflammatory, off topic or extraneous posts on websites in an effort to stir up drama or harass other members"?

[Trapsy]

Jesus Christ why do people insist on relitigating the primary? Living in yesteryear does absolutely nothing to advance progressive causes.

Anyways, I thought they both did what they usually did well but like I expected, Cruz never addressed what would happen to people who got healthcare, and Bernie failed to clearly articulate how he's gonna pay for Medicare-for-all.

The Clintons set progressive causes back decades, so I'm damn interested in having them not have control of the party any more.

I think Clintons were toxic for Democrats, they couldn't shake of the skeletons but explain how it set progressive causes back?

[Vcrew192]

Ted Cruz won.  He gave actual facts and stats on why Obamacare is bad, while Bernie just tried to play to emotion, with no real substance.  And, this closing speech is an outline for the replacement.

...and Cruz had no replacement plan.

It will be replaced with "a free market system"

There. No specifics needed. We can all go home now.

HSAs (but the level of government involvement here should be decreased substantially)

Did we watch different debates.

Limit the role of the federal government; foster nationwide competition; lower regulation and, in turn, costs; create separate risk corridors for those with pre-existing conditions and subsidize it (he didn't mention in the debate but my guess would be with tax credits by age).

You can disagree with his plan but pretending it doesn't exist won't help anybody.

[heatcharger]

Jesus Christ why do people insist on relitigating the primary? Living in yesteryear does absolutely nothing to advance progressive causes.

Anyways, I thought they both did what they usually did well but like I expected, Cruz never addressed what would happen to people who got healthcare, and Bernie failed to clearly articulate how he's gonna pay for Medicare-for-all.

The Clintons set progressive causes back decades, so I'm damn interested in having them not have control of the party any more.

I think Clintons were toxic for Democrats, they couldn't shake of the skeletons but explain how it set progressive causes back?

jfern likes to live in a world where Republicans don't exist and that the only enemies of progress are DLC Third-Way Democrats, when in reality the party has moved significantly to the left this century and it hasn't netted them a whole lot.

He probably also thinks the country is craving Bernie-ism, when the most useful modern parallel, Corbyn in the U.K. is failing spectacularly at making left-wing populism a successful ideology.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Jesus Christ why do people insist on relitigating the primary? Living in yesteryear does absolutely nothing to advance progressive causes.

Anyways, I thought they both did what they usually did well but like I expected, Cruz never addressed what would happen to people who got healthcare, and Bernie failed to clearly articulate how he's gonna pay for Medicare-for-all.

The Clintons set progressive causes back decades, so I'm damn interested in having them not have control of the party any more.

I think Clintons were toxic for Democrats, they couldn't shake of the skeletons but explain how it set progressive causes back?

Bill Clinton didn't attempt to move the country to the left the slightest after his first 2 years in office, and that 2 years included him getting a Democratic Congress to pass NAFTA. He has a long list of right-wing accomplishments, such as repealing Glass Steagal, telecommuncations deregulation, welfare reform, the Mickey Mouse copyright act, and numerous others. When he took office, the Democrats had had the House for 38 years. In the over 22 years since he lost it 2 years later, they've had it just 4 years. The party has had huge losses in state and local governments since then, too. Bill Clinton's 1996 re-election was such a utter disgrace, with DOMA, V-chips, and being open to abortion limitations being what he ran on.

And in 2016, they had the party take down an actual progressive, talked to Trump right before he announced, had the media give extra coverage to Trump, and managed to out Dewey Tom Dewey in losing to Trump.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Jesus Christ why do people insist on relitigating the primary? Living in yesteryear does absolutely nothing to advance progressive causes.

Anyways, I thought they both did what they usually did well but like I expected, Cruz never addressed what would happen to people who got healthcare, and Bernie failed to clearly articulate how he's gonna pay for Medicare-for-all.

The Clintons set progressive causes back decades, so I'm damn interested in having them not have control of the party any more.

I think Clintons were toxic for Democrats, they couldn't shake of the skeletons but explain how it set progressive causes back?

jfern likes to live in a world where Republicans don't exist and that the only enemies of progress are DLC Third-Way Democrats, when in reality the party has moved significantly to the left this century and it hasn't netted them a whole lot.

He probably also thinks the country is craving Bernie-ism, when the most useful modern parallel, Corbyn in the U.K. is failing spectacularly at making left-wing populism a successful ideology.

I live in a world where crazy right-wing Republicans are in control THANKS to sh**tty 3rd way neoliberals.

[Beet]

I owe jfern an apology. He was right, I was wrong. Clinton was a 3rd way candidate. The country has been waiting for the Democratic party to abandon 3rd way politics for well over a decade now, and the present situation is the result of the Democrats, repeatedly failing to rise to the challenge. However, I would say the main blame goes to the likable Obama, rather than Hillary. Obama papered over the problems with his two wins and allowed the party to avoid the day of reckoning. The Democrats must abandon 3rd way politics. I only hope it is not too late. Trumpist politics is truly frightening, particularly for the marginalized.

[(Still) muted by Kalwejt until March 31]

Jesus Christ why do people insist on relitigating the primary? Living in yesteryear does absolutely nothing to advance progressive causes.

Anyways, I thought they both did what they usually did well but like I expected, Cruz never addressed what would happen to people who got healthcare, and Bernie failed to clearly articulate how he's gonna pay for Medicare-for-all.

The Clintons set progressive causes back decades, so I'm damn interested in having them not have control of the party any more.

I think Clintons were toxic for Democrats, they couldn't shake of the skeletons but explain how it set progressive causes back?

Bill Clinton didn't attempt to move the country to the left the slightest after his first 2 years in office, and that 2 years included him getting a Democratic Congress to pass NAFTA. He has a long list of right-wing accomplishments, such as repealing Glass Steagal, telecommuncations deregulation, welfare reform, the Mickey Mouse copyright act, and numerous others. When he took office, the Democrats had had the House for 38 years. In the over 22 years since he lost it 2 years later, they've had it just 4 years. The party has had huge losses in state and local governments since then, too. Bill Clinton's 1996 re-election was such a utter disgrace, with DOMA, V-chips, and being open to abortion limitations being what he ran on.

And in 2016, they had the party take down an actual progressive, talked to Trump right before he announced, had the media give extra coverage to Trump, and managed to out Dewey Tom Dewey in losing to Trump.

-Nobody forced millions of Blacks, Hispanics, and elderly to nominate Crooked Hillary. They did it themselves. WJC remains the last Democratic presidential candidate to win Kentucky.

[(Still) muted by Kalwejt until March 31]

I owe jfern an apology. He was right, I was wrong. Clinton was a 3rd way candidate. The country has been waiting for the Democratic party to abandon 3rd way politics for well over a decade now, and the present situation is the result of the Democrats, repeatedly failing to rise to the challenge. However, I would say the main blame goes to the likable Obama, rather than Hillary. Obama papered over the problems with his two wins and allowed the party to avoid the day of reckoning. The Democrats must abandon 3rd way politics. I only hope it is not too late. Trumpist politics is truly frightening, particularly for the marginalized.

-Whoa

[OneJ]

Jesus Christ why do people insist on relitigating the primary? Living in yesteryear does absolutely nothing to advance progressive causes.

Anyways, I thought they both did what they usually did well but like I expected, Cruz never addressed what would happen to people who got healthcare, and Bernie failed to clearly articulate how he's gonna pay for Medicare-for-all.

The Clintons set progressive causes back decades, so I'm damn interested in having them not have control of the party any more.

I think Clintons were toxic for Democrats, they couldn't shake of the skeletons but explain how it set progressive causes back?

Bill Clinton didn't attempt to move the country to the left the slightest after his first 2 years in office, and that 2 years included him getting a Democratic Congress to pass NAFTA. He has a long list of right-wing accomplishments, such as repealing Glass Steagal, telecommuncations deregulation, welfare reform, the Mickey Mouse copyright act, and numerous others. When he took office, the Democrats had had the House for 38 years. In the over 22 years since he lost it 2 years later, they've had it just 4 years. The party has had huge losses in state and local governments since then, too. Bill Clinton's 1996 re-election was such a utter disgrace, with DOMA, V-chips, and being open to abortion limitations being what he ran on.

And in 2016, they had the party take down an actual progressive, talked to Trump right before he announced, had the media give extra coverage to Trump, and managed to out Dewey Tom Dewey in losing to Trump.

-Nobody forced millions of Blacks, Hispanics, and elderly to nominate Crooked Hillary. They did it themselves. WJC remains the last Democratic presidential candidate to win Kentucky.

No one forced anyone to vote for Trump either, but I digress.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

I owe jfern an apology. He was right, I was wrong. Clinton was a 3rd way candidate. The country has been waiting for the Democratic party to abandon 3rd way politics for well over a decade now, and the present situation is the result of the Democrats, repeatedly failing to rise to the challenge. However, I would say the main blame goes to the likable Obama, rather than Hillary. Obama papered over the problems with his two wins and allowed the party to avoid the day of reckoning. The Democrats must abandon 3rd way politics. I only hope it is not too late. Trumpist politics is truly frightening, particularly for the marginalized.

I'm glad you see it. Obama had the advantage of charisma and (in 2008) a short record on which people could project their hopes. And he was a lame duck when he tried to pass TPP, so that didn't hurt his own elections. We don't need a candidate as progressive as Bernie to win, but we need someone who fights for the common person.

[Bleach Blonde Bad Built Butch Bodies for Biden]

It's really disappointing to see so-called leftists who've spent more time bashing people like Bernie Sanders than they ever have over Trump, but fortunately that seems to a problem unique to Atlas.  I'm also glad to see Beet, a devoted Clinton fan, realize that the way the Democratic Party's been going for the last twenty years has been a failure for the party at all levels.  And you really can't argue that it hasn't been.

I love Obama, but he needs to take some of the blame for how weak the party is now.  The Clintons even more so, I would argue.  Democrats need to abandon the Obama/Clinton wing of the party if they want to start winning again, but I've seen no evidence from most national Democrats of wanting to consider that.

[Virginiá]

When he took office, the Democrats had had the House for 38 years. In the over 22 years since he lost it 2 years later, they've had it just 4 years. The party has had huge losses in state and local governments since then, too.

Bill Clinton was not the core reason Democrats lost Congress from 1994 -> now. Not really surprising that you might think that, though. Things probably add together a lot better in your head if the Clintons are to blame.

[(Still) muted by Kalwejt until March 31]

Jesus Christ why do people insist on relitigating the primary? Living in yesteryear does absolutely nothing to advance progressive causes.

Anyways, I thought they both did what they usually did well but like I expected, Cruz never addressed what would happen to people who got healthcare, and Bernie failed to clearly articulate how he's gonna pay for Medicare-for-all.

The Clintons set progressive causes back decades, so I'm damn interested in having them not have control of the party any more.

I think Clintons were toxic for Democrats, they couldn't shake of the skeletons but explain how it set progressive causes back?

Bill Clinton didn't attempt to move the country to the left the slightest after his first 2 years in office, and that 2 years included him getting a Democratic Congress to pass NAFTA. He has a long list of right-wing accomplishments, such as repealing Glass Steagal, telecommuncations deregulation, welfare reform, the Mickey Mouse copyright act, and numerous others. When he took office, the Democrats had had the House for 38 years. In the over 22 years since he lost it 2 years later, they've had it just 4 years. The party has had huge losses in state and local governments since then, too. Bill Clinton's 1996 re-election was such a utter disgrace, with DOMA, V-chips, and being open to abortion limitations being what he ran on.

And in 2016, they had the party take down an actual progressive, talked to Trump right before he announced, had the media give extra coverage to Trump, and managed to out Dewey Tom Dewey in losing to Trump.

-Nobody forced millions of Blacks, Hispanics, and elderly to nominate Crooked Hillary. They did it themselves. WJC remains the last Democratic presidential candidate to win Kentucky.

No one forced anyone to vote for Trump either, but I digress.

-True. I voted for him both in the primary and general.

[Trapsy]

When he took office, the Democrats had had the House for 38 years. In the over 22 years since he lost it 2 years later, they've had it just 4 years. The party has had huge losses in state and local governments since then, too.

Bill Clinton was not the core reason Democrats lost Congress from 1994 -> now. Not really surprising that you might think that, though. Things probably add together a lot better in your head if the Clintons are to blame.

jfern is right and wrong at the same time.

[Shadows]

Bernie Sanders

Bernie trashed the bogus Access Claim which is meaningless without affordability & it was fantastically put. He trashed the idea about Estate tax repeal which will only benefit 0.2% of the people & will lose 200B of revenue. Ted Cruz tried to tie it to small business & got caught lying. Bernie trashed Ted about Pre-existing conditions & other ACA provisions -> To all those who benefited from these, they will see that Ted Cruz clearly was not for even the good Mandates & Bernie called his bluff. Bernie was very strong on Drug price affordability.

I also thought Bernie did very well in highlighting the huge increases during Bush & that costs have always gone up, admitting the flaws of ACA & that not being able to afford Insurance is a form of rationing. His argument about why European nations or Canada don't repeal a Single payer was good & spending far less per capita was good.

For future debates, Bernie needs to IMO prepare better with a solid answer about the quality of healthcare in UK & others. UK has fantastic healthcare, sure there are stray cases but you can't slander a really good healthcare with absurd examples. Cruz continued to highlight weird examples & Bernie never responded to even 1 of those!

I think the more people see Sanders vs Cruz, the more people will like Bernie. Bernie was honest to the face of the Texan woman that 50 of your employees could be bankrupt due to not having health insurance. Ted Cruz couldn't show that honesty to the pre-existing conditions lady.

Anyways phenomenal debate. I am really happy with Bernie how he did against an Ivy League lawyer who prepares kissing & hugging in election videos !

[Shadows]

Ted Cruz

Ted Cruz lied about many things saying Bernie's plan cost 30T when it cost 16T over 10 years which 1.6T per year. US is paying 3.2-3.4T odd per year at 18% of GDP.

Look @ his question to end it -> How many people had their premiums raised? Everyone will see an increase obviously.

Also Ted's 10% flat tax is ridiculous & would end all govt. programs. And most sane economists think a Flat Tax is ridiculous. There are many sound economic reasons - Marginal Propensity to Consume, GDP Stabilizer, Resource Mobilization, preventing over-heating or crash of the economy.

Ted Cruz's FDA proposal may bring new drugs but may not lower the price which will make it meaningless for most. Another problem is Ted Cruz won't answer any questions & will point out 100 deficiencies with stray examples. So either Bernie could make a strong answer about ACA or he could keep answering Ted Cruz's false attacks throughout the debate. I think sticking to the ACA & Healthcare was the correct option.

You have to give credit to Cruz. He is a better debater than Trump, Bush, Dole, McCain. He was saying to Pre-existing lady that die or be bankrupt but he managed to twist it. The way he slandered Single Payer with stray examples was phenomenal.

The more people see Ted Cruz, the more exposed he gets due to his ridiculous policies. But he is a trained lawyer, a master of evading questions. Look @ his preparation. The guy practices kissing & hugging for election videos.

You can't beat Cruz convincingly in debates unless you flat out call him a lier like Trump did because he lies about everything. Or say you want to see people die. Otherwise he will find some way to slander everything & will continue to lie & evade questions.