Turkey referendum, 2017

[Intell]

Why isn't it a personal choice matter, integration?

I don't know, why you believe this referendum, is good, when it gives full power to Erdogan, and makes turkey a dictatorship with Erdogan's wishes going through without any dissent.

Erdogan, a figure comparable to Trump, but worse.

F*K Turkey, and maybe Germany, should stop giving arms to Turkey, and then be shocked, that it's turkish populace voted for Erdogan.


Also: What is the difference between expats from countries, that voted for (Belgium, Austria) and that voted against (Spain, UK, Australia)?

I'm just reacting to people who are citing integration failures et cetera and all.
I don't think you can actually force people to integrate into society unless they want to. If they aren't committing crimes, you are on thin ice as well, because you risk trampling religious freedom as well. Europe needs to understand that it has to be more accommodating of these cultures that the refugees bring. Some of the 'solutions' I've seen proposed, they don't fix the crux of the problem, they only entrench the current situation. Which is not ideal. I am glad that some of the kemalist-laiciest-excessively secularist garbage that is acceptable in France would never fly in America.
As for the referendum; I don't think the whole parliamentary supremacy thing with a figurehead president, that Turkey currently has, is ideal, and I think that checks and balances does work. I don't think some of the parts of this reform are that good at all; but hopefully this will get redone to make things a bit more equal in the future.

It'd be nice, if it was the discussion of whether parliament or president should be superior, or if this was a manipulated vote to control and silence the opposition, which this referendum was, and turning Turkey into a Russia-style country.

Also Europe does not need to be accommodating to the "culture" of guests, if it goes against values of western equality and secularism.

Refugees must integrate, as should immigrants, to at least fit in and interact in western society, especially their children and generation after that. Cultural norms, can of course remain intact, but only if it doesn't against the values of the country that they immigrated to.

[Tender Branson]

Why isn't it a personal choice matter, integration?

I don't know, why you believe this referendum, is good, when it gives full power to Erdogan, and makes turkey a dictatorship with Erdogan's wishes going through without any dissent.

Erdogan, a figure comparable to Trump, but worse.

F*K Turkey, and maybe Germany, should stop giving arms to Turkey, and then be shocked, that it's turkish populace voted for Erdogan.


Also: What is the difference between expats from countries, that voted for (Belgium, Austria) and that voted against (Spain, UK, Australia)?

I'm just reacting to people who are citing integration failures et cetera and all.
I don't think you can actually force people to integrate into society unless they want to. If they aren't committing crimes, you are on thin ice as well, because you risk trampling religious freedom as well. Europe needs to understand that it has to be more accommodating of these cultures that the refugees bring. Some of the 'solutions' I've seen proposed, they don't fix the crux of the problem, they only entrench the current situation. Which is not ideal. I am glad that some of the kemalist-laiciest-excessively secularist garbage that is acceptable in France would never fly in America.
As for the referendum; I don't think the whole parliamentary supremacy thing with a figurehead president, that Turkey currently has, is ideal, and I think that checks and balances does work. I don't think some of the parts of this reform are that good at all; but hopefully this will get redone to make things a bit more equal in the future.

It'd be nice, if it was the discussion of whether parliament or president should be superior, or if this was a manipulated vote to control and silence the opposition, which this referendum was, and turning Turkey into a Russia-style country.

Also Europe does not need to be accommodating to the "culture" of guests, if it goes against values of western equality and secularism.

Refugees must integrate, as should immigrants, to at least fit in and interact in western society, especially their children and generation after that. Cultural norms, can of course remain intact, but only if it doesn't against the values of the country that they immigrated to.

Many of them are not doing that though ...

During the night, many young Austro-Turks (born here already) drove through Vienna in their cars, honking and waving Turkish flags & celebrating Erdogan's victory.

That's integration !?

[Tender Branson]

Here's another way to look at the Austrian results (73% voting Yes):

There are 290.000 people with a Turkish migration background, according to the latest Statistics Austria report.

If we assume that 70% are older than 18, that's about 203.000 people.

38.200 voted Yes, 14.000 voted No.

108.600 were eligible.

So, based on the 203.000 Austro-Turks of voting age ...

19% voted Yes
  7% voted No
28% were eligible, but didn't vote
46% were not eligible at all to vote

[Zinneke]

Just watch, Erdogan will be deposed in a Ukrainian-style revolution. He lost big in Istanbul and his Islamist ideas are not popular in that massive city. Istanbul will rise up, Erdogan will dispatch the police and military on them, he will look bad once people are killed and he will eventually flee the country after a few month. Just like Yanukovych

What you described already happened with the military coup, and Erdogan turned it into a massive PR victory with members of the CHP alongside him.

Will never forget that video of a suburb in Ankara where they unfold a massive banner of Erdogan across their apartment block while chanting. Just scary.

[Gass3268]

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[heatcharger]

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Undemocratic authoritarians stick together.

[Lexii, harbinger of chaos and sexual anarchy]

Why isn't it a personal choice matter, integration?

I don't know, why you believe this referendum, is good, when it gives full power to Erdogan, and makes turkey a dictatorship with Erdogan's wishes going through without any dissent.

Erdogan, a figure comparable to Trump, but worse.

F*K Turkey, and maybe Germany, should stop giving arms to Turkey, and then be shocked, that it's turkish populace voted for Erdogan.


Also: What is the difference between expats from countries, that voted for (Belgium, Austria) and that voted against (Spain, UK, Australia)?

I'm just reacting to people who are citing integration failures et cetera and all.
I don't think you can actually force people to integrate into society unless they want to. If they aren't committing crimes, you are on thin ice as well, because you risk trampling religious freedom as well. Europe needs to understand that it has to be more accommodating of these cultures that the refugees bring. Some of the 'solutions' I've seen proposed, they don't fix the crux of the problem, they only entrench the current situation. Which is not ideal. I am glad that some of the kemalist-laiciest-excessively secularist garbage that is acceptable in France would never fly in America.
As for the referendum; I don't think the whole parliamentary supremacy thing with a figurehead president, that Turkey currently has, is ideal, and I think that checks and balances does work. I don't think some of the parts of this reform are that good at all; but hopefully this will get redone to make things a bit more equal in the future.

It'd be nice, if it was the discussion of whether parliament or president should be superior, or if this was a manipulated vote to control and silence the opposition, which this referendum was, and turning Turkey into a Russia-style country.

Also Europe does not need to be accommodating to the "culture" of guests, if it goes against values of western equality and secularism.

Refugees must integrate, as should immigrants, to at least fit in and interact in western society, especially their children and generation after that. Cultural norms, can of course remain intact, but only if it doesn't against the values of the country that they immigrated to.

Many of them are not doing that though ...

During the night, many young Austro-Turks (born here already) drove through Vienna in their cars, honking and waving Turkish flags & celebrating Erdogan's victory.

That's integration !?

I don't see anything unusual about that, it happens here with football matches all the time (and with elections)

[2952-0-0]

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Undemocratic authoritarians stick together.

The only other western leaders to have hailed the restoration of the Sultanate:

• Boris Johnson
• Victor Orban

[jaichind]

Looking at the vote shares in the referendum and the Nov 2015 elections by province and using regression/least squares one derives that Yes got

94.5% of the Nov 2015 AKP vote
~0.0% of the Nov 2015 CHP vote
14% of the Nov 2015 MHP vote
19% of the Nov 2015 HDP vote
95% of the Nov 2015 SP and BBP vote

So in the end AKP getting MHP to support the referendum did not really pull in the MHP vote.  There were significant rebellion within MHP toward the MHP position to support Yes and it seems the MHP rebels mostly won.  The Nov 2015 CHP vote held strong and did not leak any votes toward Yes. What saved the Yes campaign was the Nov 2015 HDP vote.

[ApatheticAustrian]

i understand the logic behind the kurdish votes but is there any "proof" that his could REALLY have happened?

seems..radical.

[AtorBoltox]

Is it at all possible that the result of this election is not legitimate?

[ApatheticAustrian]

and now confirmation....trump has congratulated erdogan.



https://twitter.com/maggieNYT/status/854130508036530176

[Tintrlvr]

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Undemocratic authoritarians stick together.

The only other western leaders to have hailed the restoration of the Sultanate:

• Boris Johnson
• Victor Orban

What makes Boris Johnson a "leader" of anything?

[Klartext89]

1. Turkey closed the door towards the European Union, even the dumbest EU Leaders have to aknowledge that there is no way for Turkey to enter the EU. Hopefully Erdogan will hold a second Referendum regarding the EU and the Turkey will do what these silly EU Politicians can't do: End the negotiations!

2. Very funny once again is the complete hypocrisy of the (European) Left and the propaganda media. They are manipulating and influencing every European Election way more than Erdogan could ever do. Really laughable that THEY OF ALL PEOPLE are crying about unfair conditions, voter fraud and media control.
I send my best regards to Austria where the state media, the so called "free press" and the government worked Hand in Hand to deliver a razor thin victory for the Establishment candidate using voter fraud, public assasination of the other candidate and massive propaganda and lies. But yeah, you guys are the right once to criticize Erdogan :-D

3. I close with endorsing the calls for abolishing of "double citizenship" in Germany and for remigration of the red-green voter base of Erdogan supporters.

[Tender Branson]

1. Turkey closed the door towards the European Union, even the dumbest EU Leaders have to aknowledge that there is no way for Turkey to enter the EU. Hopefully Erdogan will hold a second Referendum regarding the EU and the Turkey will do what these silly EU Politicians can't do: End the negotiations!

2. Very funny once again is the complete hypocrisy of the (European) Left and the propaganda media. They are manipulating and influencing every European Election way more than Erdogan could ever do. Really laughable that THEY OF ALL PEOPLE are crying about unfair conditions, voter fraud and media control.
I send my best regards to Austria where the state media, the so called "free press" and the government worked Hand in Hand to deliver a razor thin victory for the Establishment candidate using voter fraud, public assasination of the other candidate and massive propaganda and lies. But yeah, you guys are the right once to criticize Erdogan :-D

3. I close with endorsing the calls for abolishing of "double citizenship" in Germany and for remigration of the red-green voter base of Erdogan supporters.

Are you nuts ?

There was no, I repeat no, voter fraud in the first round here. That's a conspiracy theory of your far right wing friends and nothing else. Even the Constitutional Court found nothing.

And the character assasination thing was mostly done by Hofer and the FPÖ who portrayed VdB as a Communist.

[Klartext89]

1. Turkey closed the door towards the European Union, even the dumbest EU Leaders have to aknowledge that there is no way for Turkey to enter the EU. Hopefully Erdogan will hold a second Referendum regarding the EU and the Turkey will do what these silly EU Politicians can't do: End the negotiations!

2. Very funny once again is the complete hypocrisy of the (European) Left and the propaganda media. They are manipulating and influencing every European Election way more than Erdogan could ever do. Really laughable that THEY OF ALL PEOPLE are crying about unfair conditions, voter fraud and media control.
I send my best regards to Austria where the state media, the so called "free press" and the government worked Hand in Hand to deliver a razor thin victory for the Establishment candidate using voter fraud, public assasination of the other candidate and massive propaganda and lies. But yeah, you guys are the right once to criticize Erdogan :-D

3. I close with endorsing the calls for abolishing of "double citizenship" in Germany and for remigration of the red-green voter base of Erdogan supporters.

Are you nuts ?

There was no, I repeat no, voter fraud in the first round here. That's a conspiracy theory of your far right wing friends and nothing else. Even the Constitutional Court found nothing.

And the character assasination thing was mostly done by Hofer and the FPÖ who portrayed VdB as a Communist.

Yeah, that's what AKP/Erdogan Fans write on social media about their Leader. So close, so much in common...

The biggest tragedy of our days is that highly manipulated people defend their manipulators because they think that the truth is manipulation and a "right-wing conspiracy".

The funny thing is you guys really believe your reality denial :-D But keep on, more to laugh about for me.

PS: Of course the hypocritical Lefty thinks that it's really a shame to portray a communist as a communist not to portray a Patriot as a Nazi even using a braindead grandma to attack him with the worst of all conspiracy theories and lies :-D  If it wouldn't be so sad...

[Tender Branson]

1. Turkey closed the door towards the European Union, even the dumbest EU Leaders have to aknowledge that there is no way for Turkey to enter the EU. Hopefully Erdogan will hold a second Referendum regarding the EU and the Turkey will do what these silly EU Politicians can't do: End the negotiations!

2. Very funny once again is the complete hypocrisy of the (European) Left and the propaganda media. They are manipulating and influencing every European Election way more than Erdogan could ever do. Really laughable that THEY OF ALL PEOPLE are crying about unfair conditions, voter fraud and media control.
I send my best regards to Austria where the state media, the so called "free press" and the government worked Hand in Hand to deliver a razor thin victory for the Establishment candidate using voter fraud, public assasination of the other candidate and massive propaganda and lies. But yeah, you guys are the right once to criticize Erdogan :-D

3. I close with endorsing the calls for abolishing of "double citizenship" in Germany and for remigration of the red-green voter base of Erdogan supporters.

Are you nuts ?

There was no, I repeat no, voter fraud in the first round here. That's a conspiracy theory of your far right wing friends and nothing else. Even the Constitutional Court found nothing.

And the character assasination thing was mostly done by Hofer and the FPÖ who portrayed VdB as a Communist.

Yeah, that's what AKP/Erdogan Fans write on social media about their Leader. So close, so much in common...

The biggest tragedy of our days is that highly manipulated people defend their manipulators because they think that the truth is manipulation and a "right-wing conspiracy".

The funny thing is you guys really believe your reality denial :-D But keep on, more to laugh about for me.

The biggest tragedy is that you still grieve over Austria not electing a new Führer with Norbert Hofer and that you fail to see how the population chose the less controversial candidate over the guy who would have put to shame our image abroad.

Both sides fought hard of course, but that's normal in democratic campaigns, the media wasn't partisan and there was no voter fraud.

[Klartext89]

1. Turkey closed the door towards the European Union, even the dumbest EU Leaders have to aknowledge that there is no way for Turkey to enter the EU. Hopefully Erdogan will hold a second Referendum regarding the EU and the Turkey will do what these silly EU Politicians can't do: End the negotiations!

2. Very funny once again is the complete hypocrisy of the (European) Left and the propaganda media. They are manipulating and influencing every European Election way more than Erdogan could ever do. Really laughable that THEY OF ALL PEOPLE are crying about unfair conditions, voter fraud and media control.
I send my best regards to Austria where the state media, the so called "free press" and the government worked Hand in Hand to deliver a razor thin victory for the Establishment candidate using voter fraud, public assasination of the other candidate and massive propaganda and lies. But yeah, you guys are the right once to criticize Erdogan :-D

3. I close with endorsing the calls for abolishing of "double citizenship" in Germany and for remigration of the red-green voter base of Erdogan supporters.

Are you nuts ?

There was no, I repeat no, voter fraud in the first round here. That's a conspiracy theory of your far right wing friends and nothing else. Even the Constitutional Court found nothing.

And the character assasination thing was mostly done by Hofer and the FPÖ who portrayed VdB as a Communist.

Yeah, that's what AKP/Erdogan Fans write on social media about their Leader. So close, so much in common...

The biggest tragedy of our days is that highly manipulated people defend their manipulators because they think that the truth is manipulation and a "right-wing conspiracy".

The funny thing is you guys really believe your reality denial :-D But keep on, more to laugh about for me.

The biggest tragedy is that you still grieve over Austria not electing a new Führer with Norbert Hofer and that you fail to see how the population chose the less controversial candidate over the guy who would have put to shame our image abroad.

Both sides fought hard of course, but that's normal in democratic campaigns, the media wasn't partisan and there was no voter fraud.

You sound salty, honey.

Yeah of course, the ORF and all othe "free press" outlets where totally unbiased, fair and balanced I know :-D But THESE DAMN GOVERNMENT CONTROLLED MEDIA IN TURKEY!!!111

[Klartext89]

Last point, afterwards I'll let you go on with crying and raging against the things you endorse when it helps your side:

The best Tweet on Sunday was from ORF anchor man and openly left-wing propagandist Armin Wolf, the most biased and insulting media person since Karl-Eduard von Schnitzler, who asked how the results would have been without massive media propaganda. These guys not even get how ridiculous they look when complaining about their own medicine. Butthurt, nothing else.

[Tender Branson]

1. Turkey closed the door towards the European Union, even the dumbest EU Leaders have to aknowledge that there is no way for Turkey to enter the EU. Hopefully Erdogan will hold a second Referendum regarding the EU and the Turkey will do what these silly EU Politicians can't do: End the negotiations!

2. Very funny once again is the complete hypocrisy of the (European) Left and the propaganda media. They are manipulating and influencing every European Election way more than Erdogan could ever do. Really laughable that THEY OF ALL PEOPLE are crying about unfair conditions, voter fraud and media control.
I send my best regards to Austria where the state media, the so called "free press" and the government worked Hand in Hand to deliver a razor thin victory for the Establishment candidate using voter fraud, public assasination of the other candidate and massive propaganda and lies. But yeah, you guys are the right once to criticize Erdogan :-D

3. I close with endorsing the calls for abolishing of "double citizenship" in Germany and for remigration of the red-green voter base of Erdogan supporters.

Are you nuts ?

There was no, I repeat no, voter fraud in the first round here. That's a conspiracy theory of your far right wing friends and nothing else. Even the Constitutional Court found nothing.

And the character assasination thing was mostly done by Hofer and the FPÖ who portrayed VdB as a Communist.

Yeah, that's what AKP/Erdogan Fans write on social media about their Leader. So close, so much in common...

The biggest tragedy of our days is that highly manipulated people defend their manipulators because they think that the truth is manipulation and a "right-wing conspiracy".

The funny thing is you guys really believe your reality denial :-D But keep on, more to laugh about for me.

The biggest tragedy is that you still grieve over Austria not electing a new Führer with Norbert Hofer and that you fail to see how the population chose the less controversial candidate over the guy who would have put to shame our image abroad.

Both sides fought hard of course, but that's normal in democratic campaigns, the media wasn't partisan and there was no voter fraud.

You sound salty, honey.

Yeah of course, the ORF and all othe "free press" outlets where totally unbiased, fair and balanced I know :-D But THESE DAMN GOVERNMENT CONTROLLED MEDIA IN TURKEY!!!111

Our media outlets are very different as you know and most are centrist. Some have center left or center right leanings. ALL had ads of BOTH Hofer and VdB and reported in a neutral way though.

If you compare our media outlet landscape with Turkey's, where the govt.  media outlets gave the AKP 95% of the airtime and the Kurdish Party 0% coverage, then you are clearly insane ...

[Klartext89]

Ok, one last point:

AKP gets 95% of air time?

Wow, that's even more balanced than Germany where the Opposition gets 1,2% of air time and the pro-Immigration/"Refugee" colorful self defined "Democratic Party" gets 98,8%.  (https://twitter.com/DerSteuerzahler/status/851495844033462272)

But of course that's veeeeeeeery different and nothing has to do with nothing :-D

And you are calling me insane :-D LMAO

[Zanas]

Ah, trolls feeding each other...

Anyway, the call from Trump to Erdogan and particularly the bit about "discussing the counter-ISIS campaign and the need to cooperate against all groups that use terrorism to achieve their ends" does not bode well for the PKK, and hence for the Rojava SDF...

[Ronnie]

I don't support the result of the referendum at all, but I think it would be just desserts if, sometime down the line, a liberal wins and uses his or her autocratic powers to make Turkey secular and democratic again.

[Lord Halifax]

I don't support the result of the referendum at all, but I think it would be just desserts if, sometime down the line, a liberal wins and uses his or her autocratic powers to make Turkey secular and democratic again.

There are no Liberals in Turkey (apart from micro parties). The main parties are Conservative Islamists, Fascists, Secular Nationalists (Kemalists), and Kurdish Nationalists and Leftists.

[ApatheticAustrian]

by comparison neo-social democrats and neo-kurds are kind of liberal right now.