Turkey referendum, 2017
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Author Topic: Turkey referendum, 2017  (Read 19792 times)
ApatheticAustrian
ApathicAustrian
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« Reply #175 on: April 16, 2017, 12:49:04 PM »

the truth is, as usual, in the mid.

those turks who are austrians, germans etc aren't allowed anymore to vote anyway.
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mgop
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« Reply #176 on: April 16, 2017, 12:49:56 PM »

germany, austria, france, belgium and netherlands shoudn't have allowed that turks create parallel society in their countries

I think what you meant to say was that these countries allowed a vibrant culture to flourish and enrich the local one.

i meant to say you allowed to many turks in your country
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Tender Branson
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« Reply #177 on: April 16, 2017, 12:53:53 PM »

the truth is, as usual, in the mid.

those turks who are austrians, germans etc aren't allowed anymore to vote anyway.

Unless they have an illegal dual citizenship, which many Turks with Austrian citizenship have. Estimates are that ca. 20.000 Austro-Turks also have an illegal dual citizenship. That's because 109.000 people were eligible to vote in Austria, but there are only 90.000 Turkish citizens here above the age of 18. Exact numbers about illegal dual citizens are hard to get because Turkish authorities do not share citizenship data with Austrian authorities. The FPÖ has argued to ID people who enter the Turkish consulate to vote, to try and single out illegal dual citizenship holders and then strip them of their Austrian citizenship.
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Zinneke
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« Reply #178 on: April 16, 2017, 12:54:19 PM »

the truth is, as usual, in the mid.

those turks who are austrians, germans etc aren't allowed anymore to vote anyway.

We hold a partial responsibility too.

I've never seen any of the Right actually pamphlet against Erdogan or radical Islam in my neighbourhoods nor spend hours in surgeries listening to Kurdish refugees like some of the councillors do. Instead they have a dog whistle at the ready.

And the Left gave up and went into full clientelist mode with the Muslim community in Brussels.

Its a disgrace, but we shouldn't take lectures from the Americans about religious freedom and paralell communities.
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America Needs R'hllor
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« Reply #179 on: April 16, 2017, 01:00:33 PM »

To be honest, all this ordeal proves to me is that Western Europe is, culturally and socially, just a much worse fit than countries like the US or Canada for the assimilation of immigrants.
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ApatheticAustrian
ApathicAustrian
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« Reply #180 on: April 16, 2017, 01:02:33 PM »

To be honest, all this ordeal proves to me is that Western Europe is, culturally and socially, just a much worse fit than countries like the US or Canada for the assimilation of immigrants.

look at the raw numbers of immigrants and the size of the countries. Wink and ofc the distance between turkey and the destinations of choice.
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Zinneke
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« Reply #181 on: April 16, 2017, 01:03:08 PM »
« Edited: April 16, 2017, 01:07:29 PM by Rogier »




To be honest, all this ordeal proves to me is that Western Europe is, culturally and socially, just a much worse fit than countries like the US or Canada for the assimilation of immigrants.

Are you saying our societies are structurally designed to not be able to integrate/assimilate immigrants, compared to the US or Canada? Rather than the evident historical and geographical factors at work here?
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Beezer
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« Reply #182 on: April 16, 2017, 01:05:39 PM »

To be honest, all this ordeal proves to me is that Western Europe is, culturally and socially, just a much worse fit than countries like the US or Canada for the assimilation of immigrants.

I'd say there are too many other factors to consider. The US kept its doors for immigrants closed for a long time which for example ultimately forced immigrants to intermarry and integrate. Many of the immigrant success stories in the US also date from an era when immigrants essentially completely cut ties with the ancestral homeland.

Turks that came to Germany always kept one foot back home. These days it's entirely possible to live in Europe but still for all intents and purposes keep yourself confined to an Algerian, Turkish etc. environment through social media and what not. And they absolutely love to find a partner from a similar background. Intermarriage rates among Muslims in Europe are horrifyingly low.

You are of course right in a variety of ways though. There is a difference between a settler colony and countries that define themselves ethnically.
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Tender Branson
Mark Warner 08
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« Reply #183 on: April 16, 2017, 01:06:15 PM »

To be honest, all this ordeal proves to me is that Western Europe is, culturally and socially, just a much worse fit than countries like the US or Canada for the assimilation of immigrants.

Maybe.

But the Turks are here for 50 years now. What should we have done differently really ? One of my 2 best friends in high school were Turkish and I spent many times at their home. While they were mostly liberal at the time of high school, their parents were arch-conservatives and living in "their own bubble world" here in rural Austria - only talking with other Turks in the area and never with the locals (not that many older local Austrians had much contact with them, other than at work in the factories). My father worked with many Turks in the factory and got along well with them, joking with them etc. But culturally, they were MILES apart from Austrian culture. And even their kids and grandkids still are, but to a smaller degree. While my one best Turkish friend from high school is now living a liberal life in Vienna, being a physics teacher - the other, female one, has now 2 kids and spends her time at home. Being married to a guy her parents chose. And that despite attending a more liberal high school with me ...
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2952-0-0
exnaderite
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« Reply #184 on: April 16, 2017, 01:06:21 PM »

Putin allows strong opposition numbers in Moscow and other large cities, while giving himself 99% support with 99% turnout in Chechnya.

I'm surprised Erdogan didn't pull a similar trick in the Kurdish areas.
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ApatheticAustrian
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« Reply #185 on: April 16, 2017, 01:07:53 PM »
« Edited: April 16, 2017, 01:10:50 PM by ApatheticAustrian »

and ofc.....turks in germany were meant to GO HOME again after working for some time and until a few years ago, germany and austria didn't think of themselves as "immigration countries" and ignored melting-pot-approached or basic integration.
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jaichind
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« Reply #186 on: April 16, 2017, 01:15:44 PM »

There seems that there was significant MHP defection from the Yes camp, especially in Western Turkey.  This seems to be a East-West divide.  In the West the Yes vote ran much lower than the Nov 2015 AKP-MHP vote.  Over in the East the Yes vote ran much higher than the Nov 2015 AKP-MHP vote.
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President Punxsutawney Phil
TimTurner
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« Reply #187 on: April 16, 2017, 01:18:06 PM »

Why isn't it a personal choice matter, integration?
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Tender Branson
Mark Warner 08
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« Reply #188 on: April 16, 2017, 01:18:58 PM »

While virtually all precincts are now counted in Turkey, there's still 500.000 votes left to be counted for Turks abroad.

The YES-vote seems to be stabilizing at 51.3% and could go up to 51.4% or 51.5% again, with the remaining votes from abroad.
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America Needs R'hllor
Parrotguy
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« Reply #189 on: April 16, 2017, 01:20:21 PM »


Are you saying our societies are structurally designed to not be able to integrate/assimilate immigrants, compared to the US or Canada? Rather than the evident historical and geographical factors at work here?
Both. Of course, the comparably small size of European countries is part of the equation, but geographical and historical factors are part of what shapes a society anyway. Add to that the fact that European countries are defined more ethnically compared to former colonies, and yes, your societies are just not very good for integration of immigrants. Not saying they were 'designed' that way- it just happened because of the aforementioned historical and  geographical factors.
And by the way, I wasn't speaking about the Turks in particular, though immigrants from countries which are culturally or religiously very different seem to have an even harder time assimilating, unfortunately.
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Grand Wizard Lizard of the Klan
kataak
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« Reply #190 on: April 16, 2017, 01:24:19 PM »

While virtually all precincts are now counted in Turkey, there's still 500.000 votes left to be counted for Turks abroad.

The YES-vote seems to be stabilizing at 51.3% and could go up to 51.4% or 51.5% again, with the remaining votes from abroad.


But these are only results by AA, we still need to wait for official or for what will happen after 100% votes counted by AA.
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Tender Branson
Mark Warner 08
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« Reply #191 on: April 16, 2017, 01:34:54 PM »

Only 21 precincts are left to be counted in Turkey itself.

But 1.800 precincts for abroad.

YES seems to win with 51.4% when everything is in.
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jaichind
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« Reply #192 on: April 16, 2017, 01:35:14 PM »

The Yes position clearly got a bunch of HDP votes. Example, in ŞIRNAK

In Nov 2015 the vote was
HDP  184,396
AKP    27,148
CHP     3,273
MHP     3,081
Other   2,338

Now the vote is
Yes    58,823
No   148,215

Even if all Nov 2015 AKP and MHP voters voted Yes, another 28K mostly HDP voters voted Yes.
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ApatheticAustrian
ApathicAustrian
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« Reply #193 on: April 16, 2017, 01:37:07 PM »

why would so many kurdish voters/liberal voters suddenly support erdogan?

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jaichind
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« Reply #194 on: April 16, 2017, 01:40:49 PM »

why would so many kurdish voters/liberal voters suddenly support erdogan?



If I were a Kurd nationalist I would vote Yes.  A Erdoğan with near absolute power is much more likely to work out a deal with the Kurds.  A politically vulnerable Erdoğan would never work out a deal with the Kurds since he needs them as a whipping boy to get the votes to survive. 
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CrabCake
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« Reply #195 on: April 16, 2017, 02:00:12 PM »

why would so many kurdish voters/liberal voters suddenly support erdogan?



Kurdish voters have always had a strong Erdoganist component. After all he represents the more religious nationalist end that includes them, as opposed to the more exclusively ethnic Turkish nationalists.
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DavidB.
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« Reply #196 on: April 16, 2017, 02:05:24 PM »

On a day like this I'm also proud that I voted for Alexander Van der Bellen as our President and that VdB also won the election. Twice. And that Kern is our Chancellor.
Logging on from outside the EU just to tell you to stop
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ApatheticAustrian
ApathicAustrian
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« Reply #197 on: April 16, 2017, 02:07:42 PM »

why would so many kurdish voters/liberal voters suddenly support erdogan?



Kurdish voters have always had a strong Erdoganist component. After all he represents the more religious nationalist end that includes them, as opposed to the more exclusively ethnic Turkish nationalists.

you are totally correct.

just.....since the rise of the new kurdish party, erdogan has stepped up his anti-kurds rhetoric and program and somehow also fought his little civil war against the ethnical minority itself.

possible that some more conservative kurds are now afraid of the PKK/HDP but the timing seemed strange to me.

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Simfan34
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« Reply #198 on: April 16, 2017, 02:08:58 PM »




To be honest, all this ordeal proves to me is that Western Europe is, culturally and socially, just a much worse fit than countries like the US or Canada for the assimilation of immigrants.

Are you saying our societies are structurally designed to not be able to integrate/assimilate immigrants, compared to the US or Canada? Rather than the evident historical and geographical factors at work here?

Multiculturalism vs. Integration.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #199 on: April 16, 2017, 02:09:28 PM »

Of course that's how it ends.
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