Susan Collins: "I will not be voting for Donald Trump for president."

[RINO Tom]

FF

If Susan Collins is your idea of an FF, you need to re-evaluate your standards.

If she had chucked the GOP, endorsed Hillary, and become a Democrat, I'd say she was an FF.  Strom Thurmond chucked the Democratic Party (and his seniority) and became a Republican in 1964; in that sense (though not in his segregationist beliefs) he was an FF.  Becoming a Southern Republican was a risk for Thurmond; he was consigning himself to the Senate minority where he could not hope to become a committee Chairman and where his influence in terms of bringing home the military bacon for SC was in question.  Besides, there was no guarantee in 1964 that the Goldwater sweep was an aberration, and that the South would return to its Democratic voting habits within an election cycle or two.  Collins could do the same, and with much less risk; that would be worthy of an FF.  It's pretty bad when you can say of a sitting Senator, "We can't all be Strom Thurmond, now can we?".

Like seriously, what bullshlt are you spouting now??  Susan Collins has been a Republican a lot longer than you or your pal Santender, and she has every right (and thankfully every intention) to remain one.  She doesn't like the nominee, like A LOT of Republicans who see Trump's campaign as offensive and divisive and don't think that's the type of campaign the standard bearer for the Party of Lincoln should be running.  Deal with it.

You know why Susan Collins doesn't become a Democrat?  Because her economic views are HORRIBLY out of whack with the current Democratic Party.  As are her views on guns.  And her views on foreign policy.  And a host of other issues.  Just because she doesn't constantly talk about Jesus or hold Bernie Sanders' views on trade or try conjure up a universe where Democrats are all rich, smart elites so it'd be easier to hate them doesn't mean she's some kind of fake Republican.  And as long as she keeps that R next to her name, she has as much of a right to influence party discourse as anyone else in the party (which, yes, now unfortunately includes you and Santender).

And drop the act, you would have eaten Strom Thurmond's BS up and made some ridiculous post (in a world where Atlas existed in the '60s) about how Strom might have antiquated racial views, but at least he cares about good, hardworking White, Christian Americans, making him better than those GOD DAMN elitist Northerners.

[Fuzzy Bear]

It's great to see so many #NeverTrumpers calling out the GOP on its "racism", it's "dog whistles", it's "xenophobia", that represents such a drastic departure from GOP campaigns of the last 8 years.  Awesome sauce!

Here's my "#NeverTrump Challenge":  Let all the #NeverTrump crowd repudiate every GOP effort to enact Voter ID laws.  These laws are a modern, de facto race-based poll tax.  If you're concerned about the "racism" in the GOP, here's your chance to repudiate a specific example of it.

[RINO Tom]

It's great to see so many #NeverTrumpers calling out the GOP on its "racism", it's "dog whistles", it's "xenophobia", that represents such a drastic departure from GOP campaigns of the last 8 years.  Awesome sauce!

Here's my "#NeverTrump Challenge":  Let all the #NeverTrump crowd repudiate every GOP effort to enact Voter ID laws.  These laws are a modern, de facto race-based poll tax.  If you're concerned about the "racism" in the GOP, here's your chance to repudiate a specific example of it.

I very much oppose voter ID laws, at least if everyone isn't given a free government photo ID.

Anyway, I forgot to say: mega-FF, best Senator in our caucus, etc.

[Deblano]

Ah yes, globalism. Free trade impoverishes people. Having brown people in this country is a travesty the elitists want so they can degrade our gene pool.

Oh was my dog whistle off? I'm sorry, I thought I was just being honest.

The Republican Party is morally bankrupt. I've voted for Republicans. I liked the presidency of Ronald Reagan, Gerald Ford, and Dwight Eisenhower. You guys have f**ked up badly. And I mean, really badly. The fact that I now sound like a socialist compared to this claptrap is laughable, and I mean utterly laughable. It's disgusting just how far you guys have fallen. And it's not just Trump, no, this has been boiling beneath the surface for years. The nativism. The racism. The nationalism. All that because you can't handle immigrants or trade or, god forbid, any change at all. In fact, it's not just convervatism now. It's reactionary thought. There's nothing left in the party to even elicit a slight glimmer of hope in me at this point.

I hope the Party gets the death it deserves. I hope the few remaining "Establishment" types jump ship and I hope that Cruz carries off the reactionaries, leaving the bitter core of angry, stubborn authoritarians to rot in their own suits. Some of you want to watch the world burn. That's fair. Just remember, when the world burns, don't be surprised if you get consumed by the flames.

[Devout Centrist]

Ah yes, globalism. Free trade impoverishes people. Having brown people in this country is a travesty the elitists want so they can degrade our gene pool.

Oh was my dog whistle off? I'm sorry, I thought I was just being honest.

The Republican Party is morally bankrupt. I've voted for Republicans. I liked the presidency of Ronald Reagan, Gerald Ford, and Dwight Eisenhower. You guys have f**ked up badly. And I mean, really badly. The fact that I now sound like a socialist compared to this claptrap is laughable, and I mean utterly laughable. It's disgusting just how far you guys have fallen. And it's not just Trump, no, this has been boiling beneath the surface for years. The nativism. The racism. The nationalism. All that because you can't handle immigrants or trade or, god forbid, any change at all. In fact, it's not just convervatism now. It's reactionary thought. There's nothing left in the party to even elicit a slight glimmer of hope in me at this point.

I hope the Party gets the death it deserves. I hope the few remaining "Establishment" types jump ship and I hope that Cruz carries off the reactionaries, leaving the bitter core of angry, stubborn authoritarians to rot in their own suits. Some of you want to watch the world burn. That's fair. Just remember, when the world burns, don't be surprised if you get consumed by the flames.

How to respond to Devout Globalist?

Firstly, I'm a registered Republican, but an independent voter.  I voted for John Kerry in 2004 and Barack Obama in 2012.  

If AMERICANS lose ground, economically because of policies that call for more immigration, then those policies are wrong by definition.  If a policy lessens the well-being of American citizens but benefits non-citizens who would emigrate here, that policy is wrong by definition.

The folks who have propelled Trump to the nomination didn't start loving America in 2008, the year Michelle Obama started to be proud of being an American.  (Yes, she said that, and I'm not going to let that be walked back.)  They have obeyed the laws, paid taxes, and put up with all sorts of change in their lives, including societal changes that challenge their Biblical beliefs.  And many of them have seen their jobs be shipped to Mexico or China or who knows where.  In return they get retraining for jobs that don't exist, or retraining that requires living without an income for a lengthy period of time, only to face age discrimination when you apply for that job you were retrained for.  They were the backbone of America, and many of them have been screwed, and screwed royally by folks who want free trade and expanded immigration, all of which impacts their employment negatively.

If you are an American citizen, I don't care what race you are, what religion you are, what ethnicity you are; YOUR CONCERNS OUGHT TO COME BEFORE THE CONCERNS OF THOSE WHO AREN'T CITIZENS.  Is this a novel idea?  Every other country I can think of operates on this basis and I never see anyone whine about that.  We've moved away from this ideal over time, and that's change that has hurt many of my fellow countrymen.  And, to be clear, an illegal alien is not my fellow countryman, not by definition, and not in fact.  

Devout Globalists don't give one iota of a damn about the welfare of American workers displaced by free trade.  

Oh, the strawman is enough to build a mansion out of straw. Heh. You know, I like your passion. It almost makes up for your lack of empirical data. Almost

Let's consider the first fact you throw out. That I prioritize the welfare of non citizens over Americans. Quite frankly, you've concocted a wonderful, beautiful lie. "You're a globalist who cares more about the immigrants and foreigners than American workers." Hell of a story Goebbels, but no, I don't. I cherish the livelihoods of every American. I want all of us to be able to share in prosperity and the success of good fortune. To claim otherwise is a linguistic technique similar to a bull's excrement.

You make a completely false premise, right off the bat, and then you follow it up by talking about the downsides of globalism: immigrants (the brown people) and free trade. Interesting attack strategy, but also incorrect.

Manufacturing production in this country is at a high. Output is solid. So, why are jobs down? Automation. You wonder why the UAW fought those robots producing your cars so hard, just go take a look down in Dearborn and look at what's making those cars now. Foreign labor is marginally cheaper than a robot. You'd not only have to abandon trade to get all those jobs back from Mexico, but also axe all that pesky technology.

That's the problem. Years and years of this compounds on one another until you're at the point today that clerks are being threatened by automation. And unless you want to get that sledge hammer and crush the machines, nothing will stop it. Except maybe, our planet going to hell. But I doubt that's going to happen with the Climate Agreement in place because of that dragon Globalism.

And you blame the immigrants. If only they were kicked out, jobs would be plentiful for the working class. Well I hate to break it to you, but most of us have gotten used to not working in the fields for pennies a day. We could always take the high road and pay a lot more for fruits and vegetables, along with your dinner service and dry cleaning. If you want to take that path, I'd say that's admirable. But I doubt your "patriotic" countrymen would want that. People want it all and they want it cheap, free if preferable. You want to balance the debt? Let's make sacrifices, cut back, and raise some taxes. But no one wants that. We're a nation that depends on the cheap and the easy. We could fix our problems with serious reform and time, but that's not easy.

Oh and I have a solution for all of this, one that doesn't require you becoming a Luddite and smashing the technology that made the modern world or putting the darkies back in their place. Wanna know what it is? It's quite simple, actually.

1. Increase support for private sector unions.
2. Implement a negative income tax.
3. Make education readily available.
4. Move towards a balanced budget by making serious entitlement reform and tax increases.
5. Equalize nominal corporate tax rates to the real corporate tax rate.
6. Invest more in infrastructure.

All our problems with our labor force will be at least partially remedied by the above. But I don't think you're interested in most of them.

You see, here's my problem. I have to deal with the emotional appeal every day. People don't want logic, people want what feels right, what cures that age old ailment that envelops everyone: fear. I don't look down on people because of their circumstances or race or job or their political views. There's only one reason I can't stand people and that's fear. Fear is irrational. Fear convinces you that the enemy is at the gates demanding for your blood. Fear tells you to hide in the corner and put your faith in the tough guy. Well let me tell you, the fearful annoy me, a lot. And I sense a whole lot of fear in this nation. Should be more accommodating? Perhaps. But what good will it do? I can't convince the irrational through facts. I can't convince people to throw away their demons and work for a solution. I'm a man. You and I? This is all meaningless in the end.

We've been screwed, not by foreigners, not by immigrants, not by trade, not by conservatives, not by liberals, not by minorities, and not by whites. No, we've been screwed by our fear and self loathing. Get back to me when that's gone.

[Fuzzy Bear]

FF

If Susan Collins is your idea of an FF, you need to re-evaluate your standards.

If she had chucked the GOP, endorsed Hillary, and become a Democrat, I'd say she was an FF.  Strom Thurmond chucked the Democratic Party (and his seniority) and became a Republican in 1964; in that sense (though not in his segregationist beliefs) he was an FF.  Becoming a Southern Republican was a risk for Thurmond; he was consigning himself to the Senate minority where he could not hope to become a committee Chairman and where his influence in terms of bringing home the military bacon for SC was in question.  Besides, there was no guarantee in 1964 that the Goldwater sweep was an aberration, and that the South would return to its Democratic voting habits within an election cycle or two.  Collins could do the same, and with much less risk; that would be worthy of an FF.  It's pretty bad when you can say of a sitting Senator, "We can't all be Strom Thurmond, now can we?".

Like seriously, what bullshlt are you spouting now??  Susan Collins has been a Republican a lot longer than you or your pal Santender, and she has every right (and thankfully every intention) to remain one.  She doesn't like the nominee, like A LOT of Republicans who see Trump's campaign as offensive and divisive and don't think that's the type of campaign the standard bearer for the Party of Lincoln should be running.  Deal with it.

You know why Susan Collins doesn't become a Democrat?  Because her economic views are HORRIBLY out of whack with the current Democratic Party.  As are her views on guns.  And her views on foreign policy.  And a host of other issues.  Just because she doesn't constantly talk about Jesus or hold Bernie Sanders' views on trade or try conjure up a universe where Democrats are all rich, smart elites so it'd be easier to hate them doesn't mean she's some kind of fake Republican.  And as long as she keeps that R next to her name, she has as much of a right to influence party discourse as anyone else in the party (which, yes, now unfortunately includes you and Santender).

And drop the act, you would have eaten Strom Thurmond's BS up and made some ridiculous post (in a world where Atlas existed in the '60s) about how Strom might have antiquated racial views, but at least he cares about good, hardworking White, Christian Americans, making him better than those GOD DAMN elitist Northerners.

Well, I am a Northerner.  From Metropolitan New York.  A former activist Democrat.  A campaign volunteer on the first black candidate ever to be nominated by a major party in my home county.  

And, no, I'm not down with Strom Thurmond, a man who denied his own daughter for most of his life.  He had to live with that in this life, so I'll leave it to God to have judged him for the next.  I understood that Strom Thurmond used the race issue to, in no small part, get Southern white working class voters to vote against their own economic interest.  

But what I see is a Democratic Party that has come to loathe the white, Christian working class because they loathe their values.  That loathing has changed the Democratic Party to a party which does not receive the votes of many working class voters, and no longer advances their interests.

I'm not a "loyal Republican".  My partisanship for Donald Trump is somewhat singular, and somewhat limited to the fact that I agree with his issue positions more than I do both conservatives and liberal Democrats.  I don't really trust the GOP to be a "workers party", but I do believe that a President Trump would be responsive to the concerns of the displaced worker far more than recent Globalist Presidents have been.  And I see the Democratic "dog whistles" as well.  The term "Trump Supporters" implies low income, low education white working class voters and is often used to stir up contempt for them, and exaggerate their bigotry, homophobia, etc., while ignoring their own bigotry and Christian-phobia.  (I'll let the reader observe the political scene to decide whether or not I'm full of beans on that one.)

Some folks just don't read people all that well.

[ProudModerate2]

It's great to see so many #NeverTrumpers calling out the GOP on its "racism", it's "dog whistles", it's "xenophobia", that represents such a drastic departure from GOP campaigns of the last 8 years.  Awesome sauce!

Here's my "#NeverTrump Challenge":  Let all the #NeverTrump crowd repudiate every GOP effort to enact Voter ID laws.  These laws are a modern, de facto race-based poll tax.  If you're concerned about the "racism" in the GOP, here's your chance to repudiate a specific example of it.

When the Republican Party has supporters like this, they should not be surprised that their chances to lead this nation in the future are FU**ED !

[ProudModerate2]

..... Anyway, I forgot to say: mega-FF, best Senator in our caucus, etc.

Completely agree.

[HAnnA MArin County]

Collins will be seen as a RINO Globalist from Maine. She may run for Maine governor in 2018 so she doesn't get a primary challenge from a more conservative candidate.

Will be seen? She is probably the biggest RINO in the Senate. An unreliable vote for the Republicans. If I had to pick a Senator to pull this stunt, it would be Collins.

Not like that reliable Republican Donald Trump!  You can always count on him to consistently tow the GOP Line.  Right, Seriously?!

Give me a break. If you are truly a blue avatar that happens to be #NeverTrump, you know exactly what I am talking about with that train wreck of a Senator from Maine.

How is a Republican winning with over 60 percent of the vote year after year in a blue state a train wreck? A more accurate descriptor of a train wreck is the candidate you're supporting for President who's gonna get shellacked in a HILLslide in three months.

[ag]

I see, Sen. Collins has touched the nerve of the Trumpista Revolution crowd. Good! Enjoy seeing them perturbed and spouting nonsense.

[Ljube]

She will change her mind and eventually vote for Trump.

[ProudModerate2]

She will change her mind and eventually vote for Trump.

Pffffffffff !

[ag]

She will change her mind and eventually vote for Trump.

She does not want to kill your mother, so she will not.

[Fuzzy Bear]

It's great to see so many #NeverTrumpers calling out the GOP on its "racism", it's "dog whistles", it's "xenophobia", that represents such a drastic departure from GOP campaigns of the last 8 years.  Awesome sauce!

Here's my "#NeverTrump Challenge":  Let all the #NeverTrump crowd repudiate every GOP effort to enact Voter ID laws.  These laws are a modern, de facto race-based poll tax.  If you're concerned about the "racism" in the GOP, here's your chance to repudiate a specific example of it.

When the Republican Party has supporters like this, they should not be surprised that their chances to lead this nation in the future are FU**ED !

I was being sarcastic on the "drastic departure" comment.  The GOP's style of politics is no different now on a number of issues than it has been since 2008 at least.

The difference with Trump is his trade policies.  He's not the first GOP candidate to advocate building a border wall; he just makes it more of a priority.  He's not the first candidate to advocate deporting all illegal aliens; Romney proposed "self-deportation", hoping that the illegal aliens would make the job easier for him.  As for dog whistles, Newt Gingrich's worked fine in 2012, and Mitt's 47% comments were the stuff of legends.

None of the rebellion is about Trump's "temperament" or any of this.  It's all about Trump effecting what is, essentially, a hostile takeover of the GOP Presidential nominating apparatus, at the expense of the free traders and Globalists, and at the expense of those who want to Cash Out of America and turn it into the World's Largest Tax Haven to those who recognize that maintenance of a middle class society requires public spending on infrastructure.  And it's a rejection of those "Cash Out America" folks in the GOP that ushered in policies that improved the lives of people around the World, but diminished the lives of working, law-abiding Americans by giving corporate elites incentives to outsource American jobs.

I notice that a lot of the folks here with avatars reflecting residence outside the US are the most bent out of shape about this sort of assertion.  I get that, but I also have this silly idea that my government's job is to look out for the interests of American citizens first, those lawfully here that are legal non-citizens second, and the rest of the World only as enumerated Constitutional rights apply to them while they are on American soil.  That life is better nowadays for folks in China and India does not mean that American politicians have been fulfilling their duties to the folks they are elected to serve. 

[LLR]

I'm glad someone's making sense in that train wreck of a party.

[Coolface Sock #42069]

FF

[Gustaf]

It's great to see so many #NeverTrumpers calling out the GOP on its "racism", it's "dog whistles", it's "xenophobia", that represents such a drastic departure from GOP campaigns of the last 8 years.  Awesome sauce!

Here's my "#NeverTrump Challenge":  Let all the #NeverTrump crowd repudiate every GOP effort to enact Voter ID laws.  These laws are a modern, de facto race-based poll tax.  If you're concerned about the "racism" in the GOP, here's your chance to repudiate a specific example of it.

When the Republican Party has supporters like this, they should not be surprised that their chances to lead this nation in the future are FU**ED !

I was being sarcastic on the "drastic departure" comment.  The GOP's style of politics is no different now on a number of issues than it has been since 2008 at least.

The difference with Trump is his trade policies.  He's not the first GOP candidate to advocate building a border wall; he just makes it more of a priority.  He's not the first candidate to advocate deporting all illegal aliens; Romney proposed "self-deportation", hoping that the illegal aliens would make the job easier for him.  As for dog whistles, Newt Gingrich's worked fine in 2012, and Mitt's 47% comments were the stuff of legends.

None of the rebellion is about Trump's "temperament" or any of this.  It's all about Trump effecting what is, essentially, a hostile takeover of the GOP Presidential nominating apparatus, at the expense of the free traders and Globalists, and at the expense of those who want to Cash Out of America and turn it into the World's Largest Tax Haven to those who recognize that maintenance of a middle class society requires public spending on infrastructure.  And it's a rejection of those "Cash Out America" folks in the GOP that ushered in policies that improved the lives of people around the World, but diminished the lives of working, law-abiding Americans by giving corporate elites incentives to outsource American jobs.

I notice that a lot of the folks here with avatars reflecting residence outside the US are the most bent out of shape about this sort of assertion.  I get that, but I also have this silly idea that my government's job is to look out for the interests of American citizens first, those lawfully here that are legal non-citizens second, and the rest of the World only as enumerated Constitutional rights apply to them while they are on American soil.  That life is better nowadays for folks in China and India does not mean that American politicians have been fulfilling their duties to the folks they are elected to serve. 

See, the problem is that, like your candidate, you don't understand economics. So you don't understand what the problems are (you conveniently ignored points about it in this very thread) and you really don't understand what a solution might be (again something you ignored here).

Your chauvinistic nationalism also isn't a given default position. Thankfully, lots of voters believe that adhering to moral principles is something that should also weigh in the calculation.

Even if you were right the fact that you're willing to sacrifice constitutional rights, world peace and basic human decency for your economic self-interest is pretty morally disgusting.

[Devout Centrist]

It's great to see so many #NeverTrumpers calling out the GOP on its "racism", it's "dog whistles", it's "xenophobia", that represents such a drastic departure from GOP campaigns of the last 8 years.  Awesome sauce!

Here's my "#NeverTrump Challenge":  Let all the #NeverTrump crowd repudiate every GOP effort to enact Voter ID laws.  These laws are a modern, de facto race-based poll tax.  If you're concerned about the "racism" in the GOP, here's your chance to repudiate a specific example of it.

When the Republican Party has supporters like this, they should not be surprised that their chances to lead this nation in the future are FU**ED !

I was being sarcastic on the "drastic departure" comment.  The GOP's style of politics is no different now on a number of issues than it has been since 2008 at least.

The difference with Trump is his trade policies.  He's not the first GOP candidate to advocate building a border wall; he just makes it more of a priority.  He's not the first candidate to advocate deporting all illegal aliens; Romney proposed "self-deportation", hoping that the illegal aliens would make the job easier for him.  As for dog whistles, Newt Gingrich's worked fine in 2012, and Mitt's 47% comments were the stuff of legends.

None of the rebellion is about Trump's "temperament" or any of this.  It's all about Trump effecting what is, essentially, a hostile takeover of the GOP Presidential nominating apparatus, at the expense of the free traders and Globalists, and at the expense of those who want to Cash Out of America and turn it into the World's Largest Tax Haven to those who recognize that maintenance of a middle class society requires public spending on infrastructure.  And it's a rejection of those "Cash Out America" folks in the GOP that ushered in policies that improved the lives of people around the World, but diminished the lives of working, law-abiding Americans by giving corporate elites incentives to outsource American jobs.

I notice that a lot of the folks here with avatars reflecting residence outside the US are the most bent out of shape about this sort of assertion.  I get that, but I also have this silly idea that my government's job is to look out for the interests of American citizens first, those lawfully here that are legal non-citizens second, and the rest of the World only as enumerated Constitutional rights apply to them while they are on American soil.  That life is better nowadays for folks in China and India does not mean that American politicians have been fulfilling their duties to the folks they are elected to serve. 

See, the problem is that, like your candidate, you don't understand economics. So you don't understand what the problems are (you conveniently ignored points about it in this very thread) and you really don't understand what a solution might be (again something you ignored here).

Your chauvinistic nationalism also isn't a given default position. Thankfully, lots of voters believe that adhering to moral principles is something that should also weigh in the calculation.

Even if you were right the fact that you're willing to sacrifice constitutional rights, world peace and basic human decency for your economic self-interest is pretty morally disgusting.

That's what fear will do to people.

[RINO Tom]

I would have voted for Shenna Bellows in 2014. Collins (D) is such a terrible person.

She's more of a Republican than you (ya know, actually being one), so you sound like an idiot, per usual.

[RINO Tom]

I would have voted for Shenna Bellows in 2014. Collins (D) is such a terrible person.

She's more of a Republican than you (ya know, actually being one), so you sound like an idiot, per usual.

Um, so what? I don't care, Collins is just an awful person. You also need to stop acting as if she's your generic Republican. She's not.

You called her Collins (D), as if she's not sufficiently Republican for you.  How can someone who's not even a Republican himself post something like that and not expect to be called out (by another Republican, I might add)?

[The Dowager Mod]

Gee how very brave of her, Another 4 years until she's up for re election, And in the meantime she will keep on supporting her parties obstruction, Like how she's jumping all over that Garland nomination.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

Fuzzy Bear is snapping necks and cashing checks!

[ProudModerate2]

Well it seems that Atlas members like FuzzyBear and Seriously have mud on their face (or maybe it's actually sh*t).
Seems like Sen Susan Collins (R-ME) had it correct back in early August, while the vast majority of Republicans in both chambers had it wrong.
Now they are all jumping ship off of the sinking Trumptanic, and swimming for their lives through frigid waters toward the SS Collins, with her on board lying on a beach chair drinking a piña colada.

[Figueira]

At least Collins had the decency to never support Trump in the first place.