Are you afraid of death?

[Antonio the Sixth]

Not really, and I'm not saying this to make myself look "tough". There are many things that frighten me, some pretty benign even, but death isn't among them.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Honestly, I'm afraid of death, even if I think there might be an afterlife. That's why I consider myself a transhumanist; I want to transcend death.

Living forever? Now that's an idea I find terrifying.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I'm with Afleitch here, I genuinely don't get fear of death. If there is no afterlife and you just stop existing, what's wrong about that? By definition, it can't hurt you in any way. I think Socrates put it something like this. And if what awaits you is the Christian afterlife, then what you will get is what you deserved, which to me, even if what I deserve is some degree of suffering for my sins, would still feel comforting (of course I categorically refuse to believe in eternal damnation, I can see why that would cause anguish). My knowledge of other religions is limited, but it seems to me that all of them offer some kind of hope in that regard. So if the possibilities range from a neutral outcome to desirable ones, what's there to fear? Not trying to be glib here, I'd really like to understand.

[Antonio the Sixth]

The fear of not having a purpose, or of failing to accomplish the purpose you had, is definitely something I can understand. I agree that this sounds more like a fear of life than a fear of death. Obviously there's never going to be a definitive answer to those questions, but I think we can all find answers that work for us and help us through our lives.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Substitutionary atonement is only one of many interpretations of what Jesus did. There are much better ones, in my opinion.

[Antonio the Sixth]

My knowledge of other religions is limited, but it seems to me that all of them offer some kind of hope in that regard. So if the possibilities range from a neutral outcome to desirable ones, what's there to fear? Not trying to be glib here, I'd really like to understand.

Suppose you belong to a religion that espouses reincarnation. Let's further suppose by your own calculation you merit spending the next several thousand years as lifeforms with much crappier lives than your current one. That seems like a good enough reason to fear death. Or is that not what you are getting at?

I was assuming that, from the standpoint of religions for which the nature of the afterlife is a reflection of faith/works in the present life, all of us are still early enough in our lives that we can hope to become righteous enough to at least avoid the worst outcomes. Otherwise, if I truly had done something so heinous as to deserve such a fate, I genuinely think I would be relieved to know that I will have a chance to atone.

[Antonio the Sixth]

No, and honestly, I don't get the obsession people have with living as long as possible.  Why would I want to spend 100 years in a world filled with pain and suffering when I can spend an eternity in a perfect world with my God?

What makes you think there is more pain and suffering than good in the world?

I track the stats for evil. Murder and death by violence and war, poverty, longevity, crime and slavery.

All those are at the best levels that mankind has ever seen.

So why do you see more evil than good?

Could it be the way you are looking and not reality?

Regards
DL

I don't necessarily think that there's more bad than good in the world; I simply don't see why I would want to spend 100 or more years in a world where evil exists when I can spend eternity in a world where it doesn't.

What makes you think that heaven has no evil?
Have you forgotten that that heaven is where Satan is said to have come from?

Regards
DL

What is even your point here?

[Antonio the Sixth]

No, and honestly, I don't get the obsession people have with living as long as possible.  Why would I want to spend 100 years in a world filled with pain and suffering when I can spend an eternity in a perfect world with my God?

What makes you think there is more pain and suffering than good in the world?

I track the stats for evil. Murder and death by violence and war, poverty, longevity, crime and slavery.

All those are at the best levels that mankind has ever seen.

So why do you see more evil than good?

Could it be the way you are looking and not reality?

Regards
DL

I don't necessarily think that there's more bad than good in the world; I simply don't see why I would want to spend 100 or more years in a world where evil exists when I can spend eternity in a world where it doesn't.

What makes you think that heaven has no evil?
Have you forgotten that that heaven is where Satan is said to have come from?

Regards
DL

What is even your point here?

That evil is in heaven as well as everywhere else.

Regards
DL

I know, but why?

[Antonio the Sixth]

I really don't understand why subjectivism is so trendy these days in discussions of morality when it never comes up in other areas of philosophy. I'm not only referring to Afleitch here, I had a similar discussion with a fellow student a few days ago (which went terribly because I always sound like a moron when I have to talk instead of writing). Of course every notion we have of moral principles is determined by our subjective perceptions, but the same could be said of reality itself. The only way that I can know that there is a table in front of me is through by seeing or touching it. Do we conclude that there is no such thing as an objective reality, only 7 billion subjective realities (or more if you count animals)? I mean, some philosophers do, and it's a logically unassailable position, but I'm not sure Afleitch and the others want to go that route.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I really don't understand why subjectivism is so trendy these days in discussions of morality when it never comes up in other areas of philosophy. I'm not only referring to Afleitch here, I had a similar discussion with a fellow student a few days ago (which went terribly because I always sound like a moron when I have to talk instead of writing). Of course every notion we have of moral principles is determined by our subjective perceptions, but the same could be said of reality itself. The only way that I can know that there is a table in front of me is through by seeing or touching it. Do we conclude that there is no such thing as an objective reality, only 7 billion subjective realities (or more if you count animals)? I mean, some philosophers do, and it's a logically unassailable position, but I'm not sure Afleitch and the others want to go that route.

Is anyone going to take this up? I know there's at least a dozen of open moral relativists out there. Afleitch is the most articulate of them, but I'll settle for a Joe if that's all I can get.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I really don't understand why subjectivism is so trendy these days in discussions of morality when it never comes up in other areas of philosophy. I'm not only referring to Afleitch here, I had a similar discussion with a fellow student a few days ago (which went terribly because I always sound like a moron when I have to talk instead of writing). Of course every notion we have of moral principles is determined by our subjective perceptions, but the same could be said of reality itself. The only way that I can know that there is a table in front of me is through by seeing or touching it. Do we conclude that there is no such thing as an objective reality, only 7 billion subjective realities (or more if you count animals)? I mean, some philosophers do, and it's a logically unassailable position, but I'm not sure Afleitch and the others want to go that route.

Is anyone going to take this up? I know there's at least a dozen of open moral relativists out there. Afleitch is the most articulate of them, but I'll settle for a Joe if that's all I can get.

I didn't interpret what afleitch was saying to be a positive articulation of moral relativism, but I could be wrong, as I've been wrong about his position on ethics once already on this very page.

I remember him arguing for it more explicitly in this thread. Our conversation there eventually drifted on this issue, and tbh I've always wanted to continue it.

[Antonio the Sixth]

You should not reference those whose thinking you do not understand.

I couldn't agree more!

Regards
AV

[Antonio the Sixth]

Don't write like an idiot and I won't.

Regards
DL

You know, maybe you know more about Gnosticism than I give you credit for. You certainly have the self-congratulatory, snobbish, unwarranted self-importance and belief that you know better than everyone else and if they disagree with you or don't understand what you're trying to say then they must be drooling morons down pat.

Also, you absolutely implied that you think good is a privation of evil and you know it, edgelord.

Regards
NT

Get the quote or be seen for what you are.

Regards
DL

I can assure you, someone in this discussion is definitely not making himself look very good.

Regards
AV