US-World relations in the long run

[Gustaf]

I guess I'm gonna get hated by all the prud Americans in this forum, but I feel obliged to raise this issue. Now, don't get me wrong, I am not an anti-american myself and I did, for example, support the Iraq war. But I was pretty alone in this. 90% opposed it in Spain, 70-80% in Sweden, and numbers were similar all over western Europe. An entire new generation is growing up learning to hate America, just when the end of the cold war and the retreat of the Vietnam war into oblivion was restoring goodwil to the US.

To give one example: one of my friends turned to me the other day and said thoughtfully, that, come to think about it, the capture of Saddam Hussein wasn't really a good thing, was it? I asked her why, and she replied that, well he wasn't going to do any actual harm any more anyway, but his capture will ensure that Bush gets reelected, so on the whole it is negative. I disagreed, but chose a diplomatic answer.

I know that a lot of Americans are convinced that you are doing the right thing. I agree, but I think it is an important task to convince other people of this as well, something which is often neglected and could in the long run be tremendously harmful to the US and the world as a whole.  

[Gustaf]

I suspected many of you would have the "too bad for them attitude", but I think it will become a problem. I read in today's paper that a rumour has aroused in Nigeria that the polio medicines they recieve from the US are poisoned so as to remove fertility, because America don't want moslem countries to grow too popolous. It is obviously rather silly. But it has caused several state governments in Nigeria to cease the distribution of polio medicines in the country, thus causing an outbreak of a disease which the world thought had been rooted  out. It's tragic and illustrates my point. With regard to M, yes anti-americanism is not new, but there was good hope of it retreating after the success of the Cold War. And I don't think it is inevitable.

[Gustaf]

I think that M is pretty correct in his analysis.

With respect to Western Europe, I think in a lot of ways US policy has succeeded too well.  We have made the Western Europeans so secure that they seem to imagine that the whole world operates like their societies do, and that all differences can be talked out and negotiated.

I think there is also a great deal of hatred and envy from the Western Europeans because they have lost, through their own mismanagment of their affairs, their pre-eminent place in world affairs.  People also hate those who have saved them, because they resent having been in the position of needing to be saved in the first place.

Frankly, I don't have a high regard for Western European opinion.  Europeans seem to live in a bubble, and while they like to weep over victims, their sympathy is gone the minute you stop being a victim.  I don't see the point of trying too hard to placate the Western Europeans, because they'll criticize us no matter what we do, particularly if it's in our own self interest.  We just have to do what we think is right.  I don't see that countries like France, Belgium, Sweden and some others could really provide much effective help in any case.  They were completely impotent in handling the Yugoslavia crisis, and these people remind me a lot of people who can't do anything constructive, but spend all their time criticizing those who try.

This is a little hypocritical coming from a foreigner, but I would like to point something out: you don't blame the dog for eating a shoe, you blame yourself for leaving on the floor or not instructing the dog. You don't blame a three-year-old for eating chocolate and you don't blame France for not doing good. I believe that it is good that America takes a degree of moral responsibility for the world, but that is a tough task and it would be beneficial to all parts if the case was presented better. I am reminded of Toby Ziegler in the West Wing, who says "they'll like us when we win". I'm just not sure about that being the right tactic.

[Gustaf]

What are your thoughts on the European Union? As a Christian, I believe what the Bible says in the Books of Daniel and Revelation and about how the European Union will rise up and a leader will emerge out of the shadows, and become the world dictator. It's heading that way. The Bible also mentions that this leader will come from Spain. Now, isn't that interesting? Solaros [spelling is probably wrong] is from where? SPAIN! The European Union will rise up and dominate the entire world. All Sovereignty will be lost. It is coming, and soon!

As a European I am deeply worried about the EU, since it is anti-market, anti-democracy and has anti-americanism and old-styled French imperialism as its main goals. I don't need a bible to see that, and frankly most people with obscure bible arguments that I have seen in the past have come off as nut-cases, no offense.

[Gustaf]

The E.U has potential, but I don't like the way it's run at the moment.
Too much economic stuff, not enough social stuff.
And letting Chirac get away with f***** up the Stability and Growth pact...(who cares if the pact is stupid? The point is that if the Netherlands had done what France has done than the ECB would come down on them like a ton of bricks)

Oh and the European Parliament should not be in Strasburg which is a nasty little city at the best of times.

I would agree woth your points on the stability and growth pact, both the stupid part and the Netherlands part. I haven't been to Strassbourg, so I won't comment on that.

[Gustaf]

My point was EUROPE takes real well from us, but rarely gives.  Then when we don't give them what they want, they cry int he press and say we are arrogant.

Some countries will always have an unfavorable attitude *FRANCE* towards the US, but it should be possible to get more popular support, as well as support from generally anglo-saxon countries like the scandinavian, Holland, etc.

[Gustaf]

The thing I've always found so funny about the Americans and the French hating each other is how similer they are...

Ooooooh, someone's gonna get hated...

[Gustaf]

[snip]

The French continued to wear bright red and blue uniforms during WWI when everyone else changed into more camouflage uniforms.

About the EU: I agree with your points on democracy. The main problem with the EU is who are behind it and why. It is a project developed by and for European politicians. That's why the EU will never be democratic, pro-american, pro-market, in favour of free trade or anything else one would like it to be. There is no good reason for giving up the nation state as the prime political unit in Europe. Also, the difference towards the US is that you feel like Americans. We don't feel like Europeans and it just wont work. American politics work rather grindingly, as I see it, and would never work unless you shared a strong belief in a common destiny. It is manageable in the US. It would be catastrophic in Europe. 

[Gustaf]

The anti-French thing is just as childish as the anti-American thing. Both sides should grow up.

Nah, the French really are bad! I'm just saying: aiding genocide in Rwanda, blowing up a Greenpeace boat, providing Saddam Hussein with the means to get nuclear arms, etc. France is a fine country when it comes to things like wine and cheese, but in politics they are usually not likeable. They just don't have the concept of morality in their foreign policy. The US isn't perfect but they are certainly not on the French level.