Should Omar Mateen have been legally allowed to buy a gun on June 10, 2016?

[Indy Texas]

As I stated in another thread, I sure do wish "pro-life" Republicans would work as hard at preventing men from getting guns as they do at preventing women from getting abortions.

I love how the party of Jesus so adamantly defends their "God-given right" to have a gun, but any attempt at curtailing gun violence is "TYRANNY!"

And I sure wish the party that espouses the values of Liberalism and tolerance would be more willing to stand up to the regressive and violent religion that has claimed the lives tens of thousands of Americans since 9/11 and apply to them the same scrutiny that they do to Christianity, but I guess neither party is perfect.

This guy was born in the US. No Trumpist anti-Muslim immigration policy would have kept him out.

The FBI had investigated him and found sketchy things but nothing definitive.

The only way you could have prevented this from happening is with stricter gun laws.

And please don't tell me that the people in that club should have had guns too, because then you'd just have a bunch of people shooting at each other in a dark, crowded, smoky nightclub.

Thank you, IndyTexas. I'm sure Brown Line was saying the same thing about how evil Christianity is when Oklahoma City occurred.

Yes, Republican logic: This tragedy could have been prevented had we armed all the people in the nightclub. More guns is always the answer to stop violence! Newtown could have been prevented had we armed the teachers and students! Aurora could have been prevented had everyone brought guns with them to the theater! Then again, victim blaming is what Republicans do best.  

P.S. Brown Line, I'll have you know that I do apply the same scrutiny to Islam as I do with Christianity. I'm a self-professed agnostic and I believe that all religions are inherently evil because I believe that mankind invented religion as a means of mind control and oppression. What really bothers me is people like you who always bring up the "whatabouttery" when it comes to Islam vs. Christianity. I hear it all the time: Islam is worse for gays because at least Christians don't hang gay people in public, i.e. Christianity hates gays, but Islam hates them more! Give me a freaking break.

Christianity hating gays (and most American Christians do not "hate" them, and certainly dont wish them dead) is not the same as Muslims literally killing them for being gay, which is quite common. So if that's you applying equal scrutiny, you're not doing a good job.

Conservative Christians literally wished gay people would die when they opposed any attempt to find a cure for HIV/AIDS in the 1980s - they believed it was God's punishment for the sodomites.

And again, the argument that most American Christians don't "hate" gay people while they stand in the way of their right to do things like get married, serve openly in the military or not be fired from their job for their sexuality is about as meaningful as conservatives in the 1960s saying, "I don't hate black people. I just don't want them to be able to buy a house in my neighborhood or send their kids to the same school as mine."

[Green Line]

As I stated in another thread, I sure do wish "pro-life" Republicans would work as hard at preventing men from getting guns as they do at preventing women from getting abortions.

I love how the party of Jesus so adamantly defends their "God-given right" to have a gun, but any attempt at curtailing gun violence is "TYRANNY!"

And I sure wish the party that espouses the values of Liberalism and tolerance would be more willing to stand up to the regressive and violent religion that has claimed the lives tens of thousands of Americans since 9/11 and apply to them the same scrutiny that they do to Christianity, but I guess neither party is perfect.

This guy was born in the US. No Trumpist anti-Muslim immigration policy would have kept him out.

The FBI had investigated him and found sketchy things but nothing definitive.

The only way you could have prevented this from happening is with stricter gun laws.

And please don't tell me that the people in that club should have had guns too, because then you'd just have a bunch of people shooting at each other in a dark, crowded, smoky nightclub.

It's not just what happened last night. It's the last 8 years of looking the other way, of burying heads in the sand, and of refusing to condemn these people whose warped idealogy has led to the deaths of so many.  I think that could have made a difference.

So had this been a young white man from rural Indiana who went into a gay nightclub and killed 50 people because "Jesus doesn't like the queers," you'd be saying the same thing about Christianity, right?

Since that would be very out of character for an American Christian, I would certainly be surprised.  Rest assured though, I would condemn radical Christianity if it resulted in the deaths of 50 + gays (of which I am one).  Your hypothetical is just that, however, since it doesnt happen, and that is precisely my point.

It's also out of character for an American Muslim.

Considering the number of potentially radicalized Muslims we know the FBI keeps tabs on (in the thousands) compared to the relatively small number of Muslims in the country, it's not really that out of character, especially when compared to every other religion in the country.

You're proving my point. Stop trying to tell us that Muslims are just as peaceful and harmless as the rest of us. The facts prove this to be false over and over again.  It's not doing anyone a favor.

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

Fascinating that the gun fetishist response to the previous massacres was about mental health, this one committed by someone known to be mentally unstable and violent is ONLY about his religion. But again, nothing about access to guns. Why is the second amendment the only one that never has to be undertaken responsibly?

But keep on thinking the way you address this is to hold every Muslim (the VAST majority of whom ARE peaceful and law abiding) accountable - because this won't cause alienation or any knock on effects, none.

Might want to get some lovely opera glasses if you insist on residing in the cheap seats.

[Indy Texas]

At some point, the 2nd Amendment Absolutists need to acknowledge that there is a tradeoff between freedom and security.

They need to admit that you can't make it harder for people like Omar Mateen to get assault weapons without making it harder for everyone to get them. And if you aren't willing to make it harder for everyone to get them, you're leaving an opening for terror attacks like this to happen.

Stricter immigration laws would not have stopped this non-immigrant.

I'm not sure how "mental health" does anything unless you subject everyone to mandatory psychiatric evaluations at regular intervals.

You can't just say, "Well we'll just take the guns away from the Muslims so that the LAW-ABIDING CITIZENS can have all the arms they want."

[IceSpear]

As I stated in another thread, I sure do wish "pro-life" Republicans would work as hard at preventing men from getting guns as they do at preventing women from getting abortions.

I love how the party of Jesus so adamantly defends their "God-given right" to have a gun, but any attempt at curtailing gun violence is "TYRANNY!"

And I sure wish the party that espouses the values of Liberalism and tolerance would be more willing to stand up to the regressive and violent religion that has claimed the lives tens of thousands of Americans since 9/11 and apply to them the same scrutiny that they do to Christianity, but I guess neither party is perfect.

This guy was born in the US. No Trumpist anti-Muslim immigration policy would have kept him out.

The FBI had investigated him and found sketchy things but nothing definitive.

The only way you could have prevented this from happening is with stricter gun laws.

And please don't tell me that the people in that club should have had guns too, because then you'd just have a bunch of people shooting at each other in a dark, crowded, smoky nightclub.

It's not just what happened last night. It's the last 8 years of looking the other way, of burying heads in the sand, and of refusing to condemn these people whose warped idealogy has led to the deaths of so many.  I think that could have made a difference.

So had this been a young white man from rural Indiana who went into a gay nightclub and killed 50 people because "Jesus doesn't like the queers," you'd be saying the same thing about Christianity, right?

Since that would be very out of character for an American Christian, I would certainly be surprised.  Rest assured though, I would condemn radical Christianity if it resulted in the deaths of 50 + gays (of which I am one).  Your hypothetical is just that, however, since it doesnt happen, and that is precisely my point.

It's also out of character for an American Muslim.

Considering the number of potentially radicalized Muslims we know the FBI keeps tabs on (in the thousands) compared to the relatively small number of Muslims in the country, it's not really that out of character, especially when compared to every other religion in the country.

You're proving my point. Stop trying to tell us that Muslims are just as peaceful and harmless as the rest of us. The facts prove this to be false over and over again.  It's not doing anyone a favor.

I'm curious about your response to multiple American evangelical pastors pushing the Kill the Gays bill in Uganda.

[Green Line]

As I stated in another thread, I sure do wish "pro-life" Republicans would work as hard at preventing men from getting guns as they do at preventing women from getting abortions.

I love how the party of Jesus so adamantly defends their "God-given right" to have a gun, but any attempt at curtailing gun violence is "TYRANNY!"

And I sure wish the party that espouses the values of Liberalism and tolerance would be more willing to stand up to the regressive and violent religion that has claimed the lives tens of thousands of Americans since 9/11 and apply to them the same scrutiny that they do to Christianity, but I guess neither party is perfect.

This guy was born in the US. No Trumpist anti-Muslim immigration policy would have kept him out.

The FBI had investigated him and found sketchy things but nothing definitive.

The only way you could have prevented this from happening is with stricter gun laws.

And please don't tell me that the people in that club should have had guns too, because then you'd just have a bunch of people shooting at each other in a dark, crowded, smoky nightclub.

It's not just what happened last night. It's the last 8 years of looking the other way, of burying heads in the sand, and of refusing to condemn these people whose warped idealogy has led to the deaths of so many.  I think that could have made a difference.

So had this been a young white man from rural Indiana who went into a gay nightclub and killed 50 people because "Jesus doesn't like the queers," you'd be saying the same thing about Christianity, right?

Since that would be very out of character for an American Christian, I would certainly be surprised.  Rest assured though, I would condemn radical Christianity if it resulted in the deaths of 50 + gays (of which I am one).  Your hypothetical is just that, however, since it doesnt happen, and that is precisely my point.

It's also out of character for an American Muslim.

Considering the number of potentially radicalized Muslims we know the FBI keeps tabs on (in the thousands) compared to the relatively small number of Muslims in the country, it's not really that out of character, especially when compared to every other religion in the country.

You're proving my point. Stop trying to tell us that Muslims are just as peaceful and harmless as the rest of us. The facts prove this to be false over and over again.  It's not doing anyone a favor.

I'm curious about your response to multiple American evangelical pastors pushing the Kill the Gays bill in Uganda.

Completely awful, of course. However, they arent passing any laws themselves, and they're not killing anyone.  Pushing for horrible laws is not equivalent.  Its foolish to conflate what a handful of American pastors do in Christian Africa to the slaughter of LGBT and other minorities that is happening at the hands of Muslims around the world. In fact, a gay man would still be better off in Africa than he would be in the middle east.  Deflecting and going "hey! Heres a Christian who did something bad" is not doing anything to rid the world of radical Islam, it only covers for it.

[MK]

At some point, the 2nd Amendment Absolutists need to acknowledge that there is a tradeoff between freedom and security.
They need to admit that you can't make it harder for people like Omar Mateen to get assault weapons without making it harder for everyone to get them. And if you aren't willing to make it harder for everyone to get them, you're leaving an opening for terror attacks like this to happen.

Stricter immigration laws would not have stopped this non-immigrant.

I'm not sure how "mental health" does anything unless you subject everyone to mandatory psychiatric evaluations at regular intervals.

You can't just say, "Well we'll just take the guns away from the Muslims so that the LAW-ABIDING CITIZENS can have all the arms they want."

There is always a trade off in a free society.  Its great that the 2nd amendment keeps it that way.

While you pointed out that this guy was an "american born", I do feel that we haven't confronted extremist Islamic ideology strong enough.  

[Green Line]

I read a quote that really struck me.  Imagine if President Obama went on tv to address the nation today in the aftermath of a KKK attack on a black church, but made no mention of racism.  Would you not all rightly lambast him?  Call him a coward?  You would.

[Badger]

As I stated in another thread, I sure do wish "pro-life" Republicans would work as hard at preventing men from getting guns as they do at preventing women from getting abortions.

I love how the party of Jesus so adamantly defends their "God-given right" to have a gun, but any attempt at curtailing gun violence is "TYRANNY!"

And I sure wish the party that espouses the values of Liberalism and tolerance would be more willing to stand up to the regressive and violent religion that has claimed the lives tens of thousands of Americans since 9/11 and apply to them the same scrutiny that they do to Christianity, but I guess neither party is perfect.

This guy was born in the US. No Trumpist anti-Muslim immigration policy would have kept him out.

The FBI had investigated him and found sketchy things but nothing definitive.

The only way you could have prevented this from happening is with stricter gun laws.

And please don't tell me that the people in that club should have had guns too, because then you'd just have a bunch of people shooting at each other in a dark, crowded, smoky nightclub.

It's not just what happened last night. It's the last 8 years of looking the other way, of burying heads in the sand, and of refusing to condemn these people whose warped idealogy has led to the deaths of so many.  I think that could have made a difference.

So had this been a young white man from rural Indiana who went into a gay nightclub and killed 50 people because "Jesus doesn't like the queers," you'd be saying the same thing about Christianity, right?

Since that would be very out of character for an American Christian, I would certainly be surprised.  Rest assured though, I would condemn radical Christianity if it resulted in the deaths of 50 + gays (of which I am one).  Your hypothetical is just that, however, since it doesnt happen, and that is precisely my point.

It's also out of character for an American Muslim.

Considering the number of potentially radicalized Muslims we know the FBI keeps tabs on (in the thousands) compared to the relatively small number of Muslims in the country, it's not really that out of character, especially when compared to every other religion in the country.

You're proving my point. Stop trying to tell us that Muslims are just as peaceful and harmless as the rest of us. The facts prove this to be false over and over again.  It's not doing anyone a favor.

Considering the predominance of blacks who commit crimes and are under law enforcement surveillance , we should also stop trying to convince you blacks are peaceful like the rest of us, amarite?

Just go there. Though it's refreshing to see an unrepentant bigot at least be up front enough to publicly vomit the sludge in their dark little heart rather than even try to pretend otherwise. Kudos sir, kudos.

[Green Line]

As I stated in another thread, I sure do wish "pro-life" Republicans would work as hard at preventing men from getting guns as they do at preventing women from getting abortions.

I love how the party of Jesus so adamantly defends their "God-given right" to have a gun, but any attempt at curtailing gun violence is "TYRANNY!"

And I sure wish the party that espouses the values of Liberalism and tolerance would be more willing to stand up to the regressive and violent religion that has claimed the lives tens of thousands of Americans since 9/11 and apply to them the same scrutiny that they do to Christianity, but I guess neither party is perfect.

This guy was born in the US. No Trumpist anti-Muslim immigration policy would have kept him out.

The FBI had investigated him and found sketchy things but nothing definitive.

The only way you could have prevented this from happening is with stricter gun laws.

And please don't tell me that the people in that club should have had guns too, because then you'd just have a bunch of people shooting at each other in a dark, crowded, smoky nightclub.

It's not just what happened last night. It's the last 8 years of looking the other way, of burying heads in the sand, and of refusing to condemn these people whose warped idealogy has led to the deaths of so many.  I think that could have made a difference.

So had this been a young white man from rural Indiana who went into a gay nightclub and killed 50 people because "Jesus doesn't like the queers," you'd be saying the same thing about Christianity, right?

Since that would be very out of character for an American Christian, I would certainly be surprised.  Rest assured though, I would condemn radical Christianity if it resulted in the deaths of 50 + gays (of which I am one).  Your hypothetical is just that, however, since it doesnt happen, and that is precisely my point.

It's also out of character for an American Muslim.

Considering the number of potentially radicalized Muslims we know the FBI keeps tabs on (in the thousands) compared to the relatively small number of Muslims in the country, it's not really that out of character, especially when compared to every other religion in the country.

You're proving my point. Stop trying to tell us that Muslims are just as peaceful and harmless as the rest of us. The facts prove this to be false over and over again.  It's not doing anyone a favor.

Considering the predominance of blacks who commit crimes and are under law enforcement surveillance , we should also stop trying to convince you blacks are peaceful like the rest of us, amarite?

Just go there. Though it's refreshing to see an unrepentant bigot at least be up front enough to publicly vomit the sludge in their dark little heart rather than even try to pretend otherwise. Kudos sir, kudos.

Blacks are a race.  Islam is an idealogy.  Did you forget?

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

Unfortunately what our little friend here is calling for is what will make more incidents like this likely.

[Badger]

As I stated in another thread, I sure do wish "pro-life" Republicans would work as hard at preventing men from getting guns as they do at preventing women from getting abortions.

I love how the party of Jesus so adamantly defends their "God-given right" to have a gun, but any attempt at curtailing gun violence is "TYRANNY!"

And I sure wish the party that espouses the values of Liberalism and tolerance would be more willing to stand up to the regressive and violent religion that has claimed the lives tens of thousands of Americans since 9/11 and apply to them the same scrutiny that they do to Christianity, but I guess neither party is perfect.

This guy was born in the US. No Trumpist anti-Muslim immigration policy would have kept him out.

The FBI had investigated him and found sketchy things but nothing definitive.

The only way you could have prevented this from happening is with stricter gun laws.

And please don't tell me that the people in that club should have had guns too, because then you'd just have a bunch of people shooting at each other in a dark, crowded, smoky nightclub.

It's not just what happened last night. It's the last 8 years of looking the other way, of burying heads in the sand, and of refusing to condemn these people whose warped idealogy has led to the deaths of so many.  I think that could have made a difference.

So had this been a young white man from rural Indiana who went into a gay nightclub and killed 50 people because "Jesus doesn't like the queers," you'd be saying the same thing about Christianity, right?

Since that would be very out of character for an American Christian, I would certainly be surprised.  Rest assured though, I would condemn radical Christianity if it resulted in the deaths of 50 + gays (of which I am one).  Your hypothetical is just that, however, since it doesnt happen, and that is precisely my point.

It's also out of character for an American Muslim.

Considering the number of potentially radicalized Muslims we know the FBI keeps tabs on (in the thousands) compared to the relatively small number of Muslims in the country, it's not really that out of character, especially when compared to every other religion in the country.

You're proving my point. Stop trying to tell us that Muslims are just as peaceful and harmless as the rest of us. The facts prove this to be false over and over again.  It's not doing anyone a favor.

Considering the predominance of blacks who commit crimes and are under law enforcement surveillance , we should also stop trying to convince you blacks are peaceful like the rest of us, amarite?

Just go there. Though it's refreshing to see an unrepentant bigot at least be up front enough to publicly vomit the sludge in their dark little heart rather than even try to pretend otherwise. Kudos sir, kudos.

Blacks are a race.  Islam is an idealogy.  Did you forget?

Silly little man. Isn't it "black culture" that leads to these problems? and isn't that as much a set of values and beliefs as Islam?

Your move, bigot.

[Green Line]

As I stated in another thread, I sure do wish "pro-life" Republicans would work as hard at preventing men from getting guns as they do at preventing women from getting abortions.

I love how the party of Jesus so adamantly defends their "God-given right" to have a gun, but any attempt at curtailing gun violence is "TYRANNY!"

And I sure wish the party that espouses the values of Liberalism and tolerance would be more willing to stand up to the regressive and violent religion that has claimed the lives tens of thousands of Americans since 9/11 and apply to them the same scrutiny that they do to Christianity, but I guess neither party is perfect.

This guy was born in the US. No Trumpist anti-Muslim immigration policy would have kept him out.

The FBI had investigated him and found sketchy things but nothing definitive.

The only way you could have prevented this from happening is with stricter gun laws.

And please don't tell me that the people in that club should have had guns too, because then you'd just have a bunch of people shooting at each other in a dark, crowded, smoky nightclub.

It's not just what happened last night. It's the last 8 years of looking the other way, of burying heads in the sand, and of refusing to condemn these people whose warped idealogy has led to the deaths of so many.  I think that could have made a difference.

So had this been a young white man from rural Indiana who went into a gay nightclub and killed 50 people because "Jesus doesn't like the queers," you'd be saying the same thing about Christianity, right?

Since that would be very out of character for an American Christian, I would certainly be surprised.  Rest assured though, I would condemn radical Christianity if it resulted in the deaths of 50 + gays (of which I am one).  Your hypothetical is just that, however, since it doesnt happen, and that is precisely my point.

It's also out of character for an American Muslim.

Considering the number of potentially radicalized Muslims we know the FBI keeps tabs on (in the thousands) compared to the relatively small number of Muslims in the country, it's not really that out of character, especially when compared to every other religion in the country.

You're proving my point. Stop trying to tell us that Muslims are just as peaceful and harmless as the rest of us. The facts prove this to be false over and over again.  It's not doing anyone a favor.

Considering the predominance of blacks who commit crimes and are under law enforcement surveillance , we should also stop trying to convince you blacks are peaceful like the rest of us, amarite?

Just go there. Though it's refreshing to see an unrepentant bigot at least be up front enough to publicly vomit the sludge in their dark little heart rather than even try to pretend otherwise. Kudos sir, kudos.

Blacks are a race.  Islam is an idealogy.  Did you forget?

Silly little man. Isn't it "black culture" that leads to these problems? and isn't that as much a set of values and beliefs as Islam?

Your move, bigot.

Nah, not going to waste my time with your personal attacks.  Carry on.

[tschandler]

No one needs an AR-15 in a domestic capacity, let alone an angry homophobic ISIS supporter.

Think about it.



Now this weapon was used at

1. Sandy Hook
2. San Bernadino
3. Colorado theatre - Batman movie
4. Oregon Community College
5. Santa Monica massacre

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/orlando-nightclub-massacre/ar-15-rifle-used-orlando-massacre-has-bloody-pedigree-n590581

It is only designed to kill human beings.

I am a little pissed that he was permitted to buy such a weapon.

Just to imagine the families grief makes me furious about this issue.

Hence why it is a Bill of Rights not Bill of Needs.  All guns are designed to kill.  The only legally defined part of a gun is the action. My hunting rifle has a semiautomatic action.  It fires one shot per trigger pull, just like an AR15.  There are even after market (for the range not for hunting) 10 round magazines.  Being 30-06 instead of .223 makes my rifle a much more powerful weapon on a shot per shot basis.  Should it be banned?  

Magazine limits are a joke.  A somewhat competent shooter loses 4 seconds at most total firing 30 rounds from 1 magazine as 10 each from 3.  Especially since they don't have full automatic capacity, they are walking and shooting.

Other than that we are talking about bans on cosmetic features.  Nothing that actually makes a gun more dangerous.

[Badger]

As I stated in another thread, I sure do wish "pro-life" Republicans would work as hard at preventing men from getting guns as they do at preventing women from getting abortions.

I love how the party of Jesus so adamantly defends their "God-given right" to have a gun, but any attempt at curtailing gun violence is "TYRANNY!"

And I sure wish the party that espouses the values of Liberalism and tolerance would be more willing to stand up to the regressive and violent religion that has claimed the lives tens of thousands of Americans since 9/11 and apply to them the same scrutiny that they do to Christianity, but I guess neither party is perfect.

This guy was born in the US. No Trumpist anti-Muslim immigration policy would have kept him out.

The FBI had investigated him and found sketchy things but nothing definitive.

The only way you could have prevented this from happening is with stricter gun laws.

And please don't tell me that the people in that club should have had guns too, because then you'd just have a bunch of people shooting at each other in a dark, crowded, smoky nightclub.

It's not just what happened last night. It's the last 8 years of looking the other way, of burying heads in the sand, and of refusing to condemn these people whose warped idealogy has led to the deaths of so many.  I think that could have made a difference.

So had this been a young white man from rural Indiana who went into a gay nightclub and killed 50 people because "Jesus doesn't like the queers," you'd be saying the same thing about Christianity, right?

Since that would be very out of character for an American Christian, I would certainly be surprised.  Rest assured though, I would condemn radical Christianity if it resulted in the deaths of 50 + gays (of which I am one).  Your hypothetical is just that, however, since it doesnt happen, and that is precisely my point.

It's also out of character for an American Muslim.

Considering the number of potentially radicalized Muslims we know the FBI keeps tabs on (in the thousands) compared to the relatively small number of Muslims in the country, it's not really that out of character, especially when compared to every other religion in the country.

You're proving my point. Stop trying to tell us that Muslims are just as peaceful and harmless as the rest of us. The facts prove this to be false over and over again.  It's not doing anyone a favor.

Considering the predominance of blacks who commit crimes and are under law enforcement surveillance , we should also stop trying to convince you blacks are peaceful like the rest of us, amarite?

Just go there. Though it's refreshing to see an unrepentant bigot at least be up front enough to publicly vomit the sludge in their dark little heart rather than even try to pretend otherwise. Kudos sir, kudos.

Blacks are a race.  Islam is an idealogy.  Did you forget?

Silly little man. Isn't it "black culture" that leads to these problems? and isn't that as much a set of values and beliefs as Islam?

Your move, bigot.

Nah, not going to waste my time with your personal attacks.  Carry on.

Nah, you're backing off because you realize that treating every Muslim the same is the equivalent of treating every black person the same. What ? there are different types of black people with different backgrounds, culture, values, and goals? well no $hit Sherlock, just like--wait for it--the are different types of Muslims too!

And before you play7 the martyr about "personal attacks", my calling you a bigot is a 2 + 2 equals 4 statement of fact. You categorized an entire (or at least overwhelming majority) near billion people on the planet and a 1500 year old faith tradition based on bastards like this and Isis whom almost everyone agrees needs shot, and....well, "bigot" is purely an assessment like "sky is blue", but not an "attack".

Having acceepted I've demonstrated the utter trash your "argument" was, like a beta dog tucking tail forthe pack leader you may now ritually roll over on your back and piss yourself in submission. Kthnxby

[Green Line]

As I stated in another thread, I sure do wish "pro-life" Republicans would work as hard at preventing men from getting guns as they do at preventing women from getting abortions.

I love how the party of Jesus so adamantly defends their "God-given right" to have a gun, but any attempt at curtailing gun violence is "TYRANNY!"

And I sure wish the party that espouses the values of Liberalism and tolerance would be more willing to stand up to the regressive and violent religion that has claimed the lives tens of thousands of Americans since 9/11 and apply to them the same scrutiny that they do to Christianity, but I guess neither party is perfect.

This guy was born in the US. No Trumpist anti-Muslim immigration policy would have kept him out.

The FBI had investigated him and found sketchy things but nothing definitive.

The only way you could have prevented this from happening is with stricter gun laws.

And please don't tell me that the people in that club should have had guns too, because then you'd just have a bunch of people shooting at each other in a dark, crowded, smoky nightclub.

It's not just what happened last night. It's the last 8 years of looking the other way, of burying heads in the sand, and of refusing to condemn these people whose warped idealogy has led to the deaths of so many.  I think that could have made a difference.

So had this been a young white man from rural Indiana who went into a gay nightclub and killed 50 people because "Jesus doesn't like the queers," you'd be saying the same thing about Christianity, right?

Since that would be very out of character for an American Christian, I would certainly be surprised.  Rest assured though, I would condemn radical Christianity if it resulted in the deaths of 50 + gays (of which I am one).  Your hypothetical is just that, however, since it doesnt happen, and that is precisely my point.

It's also out of character for an American Muslim.

Considering the number of potentially radicalized Muslims we know the FBI keeps tabs on (in the thousands) compared to the relatively small number of Muslims in the country, it's not really that out of character, especially when compared to every other religion in the country.

You're proving my point. Stop trying to tell us that Muslims are just as peaceful and harmless as the rest of us. The facts prove this to be false over and over again.  It's not doing anyone a favor.

Considering the predominance of blacks who commit crimes and are under law enforcement surveillance , we should also stop trying to convince you blacks are peaceful like the rest of us, amarite?

Just go there. Though it's refreshing to see an unrepentant bigot at least be up front enough to publicly vomit the sludge in their dark little heart rather than even try to pretend otherwise. Kudos sir, kudos.

Blacks are a race.  Islam is an idealogy.  Did you forget?

Silly little man. Isn't it "black culture" that leads to these problems? and isn't that as much a set of values and beliefs as Islam?

Your move, bigot.

Nah, not going to waste my time with your personal attacks.  Carry on.

Nah, you're backing off because you realize that treating every Muslim the same is the equivalent of treating every black person the same. What ? there are different types of black people with different backgrounds, culture, values, and goals? well no $hit Sherlock, just like--wait for it--the are different types of Muslims too!

And before you play7 the martyr about "personal attacks", my calling you a bigot is a 2 + 2 equals 4 statement of fact. You categorized an entire (or at least overwhelming majority) near billion people on the planet and a 1500 year old faith tradition based on bastards like this and Isis whom almost everyone agrees needs shot, and....well, "bigot" is purely an assessment like "sky is blue", but not an "attack".

Having acceepted I've demonstrated the utter trash your "argument" was, like a beta dog tucking tail forthe pack leader you may now ritually roll over on your back and piss yourself in submission. Kthnxby

I cant respond to an incoherent argument that is conflating race and with an idealogy.  It makes absolutely no sense. Islam, followed by billions worldwide, is generally regressive with regards to human rights.  Black people are born with a skin color. I have no clue what point you're trying to make.

You don't know me, so Im not going to waste my breath responding to your personal attacks, once again..  I know what I am in my heart.

[Badger]

You are ducking the question. There are MANY types of Muslims , and you put most of them in a. Single box because of Isis and jbastards like Mateen.

In you're heart, you are a bigot. The fact you actively seek justification for your views merely makes you .....um, a bigot.

[MK]

After all those FBI interviews with this guy why wasn't an identifier on his SBI number?   One other thing I'm curious about is when did he start this security job?   If anything the employer should have revoked his permit to work armed security.    Seems like some break downs here.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

At some point, the 2nd Amendment Absolutists need to acknowledge that there is a tradeoff between freedom and security.

There is always a trade off in a free society.  Its great that the 2nd amendment keeps it that way.

Actually, it doesn't. That's one of the enduring myths of gun rights extremists, but in a democratic (emphasis on the small-d) society such as ours, the right to bear arms is irrelevant as far as freedom is concerned. If we ever did get a majority strongly enuf in favor of ending it, it would be possible to revise or even repeal it. Possibly it might have some relevance in a nation with a small patrician class and a large plebian underclass as a means of keeping the patricians in check, but even that is dubious, as even there it would be a right that was maintained only so long as the general idea of defined limits on what the patricians could do remained relevant to that society. At best, the 2nd amendment serves as a marker of our freedom, not as a guarantor.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

As I stated in another thread, I sure do wish "pro-life" Republicans would work as hard at preventing men from getting guns as they do at preventing women from getting abortions.

I love how the party of Jesus so adamantly defends their "God-given right" to have a gun, but any attempt at curtailing gun violence is "TYRANNY!"

And I sure wish the party that espouses the values of Liberalism and tolerance would be more willing to stand up to the regressive and violent religion that has claimed the lives tens of thousands of Americans since 9/11 and apply to them the same scrutiny that they do to Christianity, but I guess neither party is perfect.

This guy was born in the US. No Trumpist anti-Muslim immigration policy would have kept him out.

The FBI had investigated him and found sketchy things but nothing definitive.

The only way you could have prevented this from happening is with stricter gun laws.

And please don't tell me that the people in that club should have had guns too, because then you'd just have a bunch of people shooting at each other in a dark, crowded, smoky nightclub.

It's not just what happened last night. It's the last 8 years of looking the other way, of burying heads in the sand, and of refusing to condemn these people whose warped idealogy has led to the deaths of so many.  I think that could have made a difference.

Yeah, it would have made the US unsafe for little conceivable benefit.

And no, he was a domestic abuse under literal FBI investigation who was a known racist and hate speech monger. Further confirmation that G4S is a lousy company if they hired him without a cursory glance at his background.

[dead0man]

Were you guys really not here when we did this last year?  Do you not remember how that turned out?

[Torie]

This is a very fact specific question, both legally and as a matter of policy. Do we know all the facts yet? If not, I would not opine myself.

[Sir Mohamed]

Not a machine gun. They belong into the hands of the police, national guard and military. And no one else. That has nothing to do with self-protection or hunting.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

Even if we take a very liberal interpretation of the 2nd Amendment, I honestly fail to see it prohibiting the government from instituting certain restrictions. I mean come on, is that supposed to give me a right to own a freaking howitzer? That's an "arm" after all

Maybe I'm naive, but I was always under an impression that freedom is limited by freedom and safety of other people. And advocated of no gun control whatsoever hardly cares about the safety of population in general.

Guns as means of self-defense? Please. Let's dispel with this fiction that if everybody may own and carry a gun, society becomes safer. If it was true, the United States would be the safest place on earth and, well, it's not a case. Maybe instead of gun fetish running wild you should take a look at other steps to ensure public safety?

[Taco Truck 🚚]

It's also out of character for an American Muslim.

Considering the number of potentially radicalized Muslims we know the FBI keeps tabs on (in the thousands) compared to the relatively small number of Muslims in the country, it's not really that out of character, especially when compared to every other religion in the country.

Ahh... right wing statistics and math.   There are 2.75million Muslims in America if the "FBI is keeping tabs" on 2,000 of them that is 0.072%.  Or as Republicans would say the majority.

And mind you this nebulous quote of "thousands" is in no way substantiated and it assumes everyone the FBI is "keeping tabs on" is in any way a legitimate threat.  The FBI has a terrible history of abusing the Constitutional rights of innocent citizens.  Just because an FBI agent taps someones phone or goes through their mail I'm in no way inclined to think the person did anything.  They did all that and far worse to MLK.  Hell every killing by an on duty FBI agent has been determined to be a good shoot by their own internal process in modern times.  The one law enforcement agency in all of American history that absolutely never has a questionable killing.

Killing of Ibragim Todashev was determined to be in no way suspicious...

You must be logged in to read this quote.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibragim_Todashev

If that is how they kill people I can't imagine how they put people on lists to be monitored.  You really trust these people without question?  You would really condemn someone just because the FBI says they are a bit suspicious?