The South will rise again.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Listen to, yes. Agree with 100%, no.


You know here is the thing, for all the talk of "many" chances, I have not seen many chances given here. No chance to write a pro-life bill, write a human trafficking bill, write a tax cut bill, write a deficit reducing bill and so and so forth.

The election was just two days ago. Before the election even started we had the bathroom issue, and now this. On the contrary rather than give chances for social conservatives to act, it seems that every single deviance is treated with probationary attitude with the expectation that deviance from perfection will cease. I am sorry if that came about as result of some misunderstanding or whatever.

There are areas which we can do great work for social conservatives, but there are just some issues that will never fly in Atlasia. This is the second time Ben Kenobi has brought up the this issue as being a "deviation from the Federalist Platform". I wrote the Mission Statement for the present platform, it doesn't touch this issue. It does however pledge equality on a broad basis. The platform itself if I am not mistake also states a preference for regional over federal action on social issues. That is pretty much it. I learned my first year here, that if you want to make your life miserable, and ruin everything else you can achieve, you can anger the LGBTQ+ community in a Senate that was I think 40% at the time, members of that community, including members on the center right side of the chamber.

I have always support civil unions, basic equality and respect.  Ben Kenobi just the other day was telling me he was all about respecting the community in question. A good bit about Tmth and Evergreen's bill is indeed about respect. I think it is close to 2/3rds of the text, but I haven't run the number and I am not going to. Portions of this were passed early in Atlasia's existence, the few that weren't, I am pretty sure I voted for most if not all as they came up piecemeal. 

I can understand if some clauses cause concern for conservatives and as Classic Conservative an I am sure JCL and a couple of others will seek to amend those portions. We will have a debate, the debate will be civil, the majority will have its say and we will move onto something more up the conservative wheel house. That is what a functioning majority does and that is what we are going to do. We are part of a team, we are not going to be able to please everyone 100% on such a diverse team, but we will strive to achieve something so that everyone can be proud of this administration, that includes both social conservatives and our more moderate and civil libertarian members as well.

Now one big mistake we made in all of this was that there was a surprise action, followed by a request to remain silent. I understand why the request was made, Tmth wanted to get this issue done with so indeed he can move onto those very issues where Ben Kenobi would be far more pleased or the very least less hostile. But it seems, that once again, the perfect has once again become the enemy of the good and he has decided to fall on the sword of perfection once again.

I am not surprised, but I am disappointed, because I thought we were passed this after the bathroom issue during the campaign.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

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You didn't run on it. You didn't tell me. You didn't tell any of us. And now you expect us to support you, believe you or trust you in the future.

Sorry Yankee. You blew it. Rather than work on trust and talk and consultation you decided that consultation wasn't important enough.

What other 'surprises' do you have for us, Yankee?

I didn't even discover this was a thing until sometime after midnight last night. My computer crapped out on me and I litteraly just got it fixed, I think. My preference would indeed have been to get everyone on the same page or at the very least respectfully disagreeing before this was launched. I even said that was a priority last night before everything crapped out. I had no chance to do anything on this or any other matter, until after you had already posted in your thread at 3 or whatever it was.

Tmth wants to move quickly, he wants to get stuff done. There is a lot on the agenda and a very short time to get it done, I cannot fault him for. He had everyone's interest at heart in doing so.

I wish you wouldn't treat this as a hostile act and I wish you wouldn't blame me or call me I liar or attack him either. I spent 2014 and 2015 being mocked and ridiculed, and having my tombstone chiseled in granite by people I thought were my allies (and also I will note by others including Evergreen ironically. ). You promised me I could celebrate all I wanted to after this election, I didn't expect the honeymoon to end after 2 days, and literally one day before I start a seven day stretch at work.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Sorry, Yankee. Trust is very hard to earn back after a stunt like this.

I didn't end the honeymoon. I had TM PM me and tell me to be silent and fall in line and support evergreen.

I mean, WTF? 2 days after the election?

I don't think that is what he was trying to do. Is it possible you could have misinterpreted him?

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Haha, I just read the relevant parts. Kenobi, don't you know that this always happens (I could say the same thing to the opportunistic Federalists)? You two just can't play well together. You should have just stayed in Labor: you'd have more freedom there!

So Labor is going to become an anti-gay rights party?


Please, spare us the comedy!

He has perfect freedom to espouse his views, run on them and win election as a Federalist and he has more natural support in this party then he would ever have in LAbor, where he would just be used as a grenade by you, rather then actually be supported by people who share at least some of his vision as opposed to none of it. 

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I meant, I don't think Tmth was asking him to fall in line and support it. Just ease up at the attacks at bit.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Please, spare us the comedy!

He has perfect freedom to espouse his views, run on them and win election as a Federalist and he has more natural support in this party then he would ever have in LAbor, where he would just be used as a grenade by you, rather then actually be supported by people who share at least some of his vision as opposed to none of it.  

Hmm, because the way I see it, you're already trying to crack the whip and shut him up after just a couple of days! What a funny way to show "support". At least Labor is honest with its intentions and doesn't try to shut its members down constantly after recruiting them, knowing full good and well they can't be controlled. Fedoralololists just never learn!

Which explains why you let your members run wild and twice plunge the country into chaos, meanwhile undermining the most reasonable President you ever elected.

I promised we would hear Ben Kenobi out, and that we would advance those areas of agreement that were practical. He agreed with that and promised not to overreact in the future. I think this is a comedy of errors playing out here. Tmth wanted to move quickly, get LBHTQ done and on your desk before Friday, and give Ben Kenobi a heads up to prevent this problem. But the communication went awry as to the justification, or Kenobi just rejected it out of hand and we are at present with this mess. There were better ways to handle this on all our parts, but I don't think anyone is intentionally trying to do anything wrong in this business.

Aside from you stirring up the pot as you always want to do. Tmth is not lying about what he believes, nor am I seeking to suppress Kenobi's opinions.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

In the Words of Ronald Reagan
Mr Senator North Carolina Yankee, PPT
There you go Again

Considering how it work out the last time you threw that at me (see my signature), I will take that with pleasure.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

So I am suppose to kick someone out of party for "lying to the voters about what he stands for", because he is advancing a cause he promised to push for in his campaign? I realize I have been working my ass off the last three days and might not be thinking clearly, but this doesn't make the slightest bit of sense


Tmth ran as a social liberal. Leinad ran as a Libertarian, you even had a run in over that issue during the campaign. Nobody lied about anything to anybody. Except perhaps you when you made a string of promises to me that have since been broken.

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Sure. I understand fully why Labor is supporting it. I'm not sure why the Federalists are supporting it. They seem confused about whom they actually represent. They seem to think that they *are* Labor.

Half of the Federalist Party is pro-Gay Marriage, or at least pro-gay rights. The other half is pro-respecting the community at the very least.

This is Atlasia, the parties are not above the fray, offering platforms to a group of disconnected voters. Our party members, 48 in total are part of the Atlasian community itself and have views of their own. The Party reflects the views that unite them as a whole. The platform reflects said views. We are not just going to blindly do the opposite of Labor. That would have meant opposition to the constitution, opposition to saving Atlasia and embrace of radicalism as they turned against it. We have brains for a reason, and that is to think for ourselves and determine the best course of action, and Federalists, that generally points in a different direction from Labor, it does not point in that direction just for the sake of pointing in that direction.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

In 2009, Hamilton claimed a certain old Party didn't represent Libertarians and so he created his own even though he was hardly a libertarian himself.

At least when he did so though, he didn't actively sabotage and reduce the size of the libertarian contingent in the Legislature to facilitate his argument.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

So I'll fight, tilt the windmills if it may, but I will continue to stand behind a concrete and cohesive conservativism, not this hodgepodge patchwork that is the Federalists.

And what happens when you are done and you find yourself alone, having basically pulled a Trump (regarding his constantly fighting back). Fighting and Fighting on losing fronts, that your knocked yourself and your movement, completely out of existence. Can you honestly say at that point, that such was sell served for your principles? You mentioned the pro-life bill. Such could be passed before, this new majority you voted for never would. That is the problem, and that is exactly what Adam wants. When you lose the Tmth's and the Goldwaters, you lose the four and fifth votes on those social issues that you can win on. If going on a rino safari suits your fancy, then don't be surprised if you end up locking yourself into the losing side of a 7-3 spread.

It is easy for Adam to compare the right to the left, but what he fails to mention in his role as the little horned devil on your shoulder (which I would note that post was dripping with such patronizing language), that it is easy to go full socialist and succeed on the internet, because it is the Internet there are millions to be found. Social conservatives are a finite commodity. Adam knows full well the Atlasian right is propped up by social libertarians and he knows there is know way a Conservative Party can succeed taking the Labor path.

Politics is at the end of the day, demographic. It is why Trump is the GOP nominee, why Obama is President, it is why Labor is the dominant leftwing party in Atlasia, and it is why the general composition of the Right's coalition regardless of party has not changed in Atlasia for close to nine years.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

The main problem with a fourth region is that it is basically undoing consolidation and with a single state the population would like be 10 people at most, therefore not enough to sustain offices.

A fourth region would entail an increase in then number of offices when you factor in 2 Senators, Governor, an a legislature of at least 3, and another Supreme Court Justice, so you are looking at adding at least 7 offices.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

The South has Risen, on Easter!!!

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

In my opinion the only grounds that were valid reasons for recall here, was the long absence, which was the motivation that the Governor cited for his vote. I am not sure what the upward limit is if any, but there have been upward limits on acceptable leaves. Now going over doesn't necessarily demand going through with recall/expulsion, it requires a judgement call. As for the other cited reasons, I do not think the other listed complaints rose to the level of recall and just like the Vice President said, we have to be very careful here.

I also would point out that while At-large representatives like CoD, are very representative of the majority of the voters, the individual members are not. That is why we moved away from special elections for House seats, because a certain block of voters amounting to say 15% elects a given representative. To have a majority then select a replacement is kind of like taking the representative from the KY-09 district and having him elected statewide in 1932. Great way to get rid of that pesky Republican Representative from Unionist South Central KY and replace them with a Democrat, but those Mountain folk are getting screwed.

At-large is indeed superior to districts in a functional and competitiveness stand point because you can pull voters and candidates from all across the country instead of a confined area, but those representatives still represent a defined niche. The sixth district At-Large in Atlasia has almost always been represented by libertarians and there used to be a defined block of 10 or 12 libertarians that voted this person into office and they often voted as a group. A special election to replace this seat, requiring 51% would necessarily not reflect or represent the group that elected this person.

Recall works the same way, but in reverse, the majority is seeking to remove a representative elected by a specific electorate and/or group of voters.



There is a fine line between "annoying" and "passionate opposition" between conduct "unbecoming" and throwing up the barricades to fight it out for the (people/tradition/workers/values/regions/taxpayers etc). We lament the onset of what I call "legislating at arms length" (which is much more accurate than the phrase echo chamber consensus, which has been tossed around for the past year), but the antidote for that is having more combative ideologues, is it not? People like say TNF or Marokai in his early days for the left and yes Ben Kenobi on the right.

Now if you go back far enough, You will find a debate in the fall of 2009 where I was accused of being annoying and accused of engaging in unbecoming conduct. The reason was because a Senator had introduced an amendment to reduce the amendment ratification threshold, and simultaneously another Senator introduced an amendment to replace the Regional Senate seats with an all At-Large Senate. At that time the left had an advantage AT-large while the right did better regionally, so most of the thread was me arguing with Marokai and Xahar over whether or not it was a leftist power grab (it was!). But at some point I just kept repeating it over and over again (to point of basically trolling the thread) and they would try to claim otherwise, but eventually the effort collapsed as it got rejected in the South and Northeast. The subsequent amendment on the Senate was rejected with an outright majority against it in the Senate.

Mission Accomplished! The Regions were saved and the right kept their small toehold to be able to offer an alternative to the then leftist dominated Atlasia. I have zero regrets almost nine years later.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Well to pick apart Barry Goldwater's quote from 1964:

While I agree that we should never moderate in the pursuit of justice, extremism has done far more to harm liberty than defend it.

Temperance, restraint and respect are not a vice and are essential to the defense of natural liberties as endowed in Article I of the Atlasian Constitution, whether that be gun rights, the right to trial by jury or free speech. The key foundation of this is that everyone has the same rights and those rights are respected.

We live in a world where even in the west we are seeing regular Islamic violence and terrorism directed towards Christians. It has become so commonplace that it has been accepted.

I will never accept terrorism, and I think we should protect everyone from terrorism including yes Christians, but also Muslims and many other people as well who are victims of terror.

We live in a world where you can kill your child, legally at 39 weeks gestation. For free, paid by John Q Taxpayer.

Not in Atlasia, Most regions have bans around the 20 week mark. I think the South is at 20 weeks or so.

We live in a world where a honorable and esteemed professor in Canada is barred from speaking on invitation to Cambridge University. Where another conservative is barred from Australia and New Zealand because his views are considered provocative.

That is Canada and the UK, where they don't have a Bill of Rights that is enforced like we do here.

We live in a world where a woman can be arrested for her facebook posts criticizing the above in England.

Again our free speech clause of the Constitution here and in the RL US would protect her.

We live in a world where another woman can be arrested for using the wrong pronouns.

See above!

We live in a world where College students are expelled, for expressing the wrong opinions.

See above !

We live in a world where a priest stands in jail after being sentence to a second trial after the first one failed to convict, and sits in solitary confinement.

Where is this happening?

All of this in the free world. Does this sound to you like 'moderation', Yankee?

You misunderstood me. I said I agreed the moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue. We should aggressive advance, defend and protect the entirety of Article I of our Constitution, which is the equivalent of the Bill of Rights in RL US. This would addressed 95% of the concerns you raised above. The other matter involves fighting terrorism, I am certainly in favor of fighting back against terrorism and weakening it in an effective manner.

The world is not what it was even 5 or 10 or 20 years ago. It has changed and not in the direction of greater civil freedoms. We are fighting for the very survival of these ideals, for western society.

You ask us what we stand for and we stand for freedom.

Where do you stand, sir?

What do I stand for?

I stand for the constitution, including the freedoms that it enshrines for everyone and the protections that guard against Government overreach, centralization of power and degredation of our natural god given rights, sir.

I stand for a market where people actually are empowred by having a free choice between competiting options, not subjected to the whims of gov't supported global monopolies, or gov't direct monopolies in the case of nationalized industries, sir.

I stand for a budget that is as close to balanced as practical so that we don't subvert our national interests, security and liberties to foreign creditors who care only about getting their money back, sir.

I stand for the belief that our gov't should act in the best interests of its constituents and make polices that benefit and strengthen those charges, not weaken them in the name of conflicts of interest, corruption, or other misplaced priorities, sir.

I stand for the protection of the unborn and policies that will work to minimize the need for abortions including both adoption services and also contraceptives, sir.

I stand for the right to keep and bear arms and that no one should be deprived of this right absent due process, sir. I certainly think Terrorists should be denied access to guns, getting back to your point above about killing of Christians, sir.

I stand for the respect of people to live their lives in dignity and peace without the gov't bashing in their door because arcane drug laws and asset forfeiture laws that have broken up more families than Hollywood social liberals could have ever dreamed and all in the name of protecting the kids from weed, sir.

I stand for a different trade approach that doesn't leave whole segments of the population to die on the beeches because of trade policies, that come along with nothing being done to help ease the burden on families, communities, schools and hospitals from lost tax base and jobs in local communities, sir. We need to preserve stability in these communities, sir.

I stand for a foreign policy that yes protects our people from terrorists but doesn't send people into harms way unless it is absolutely necessary, sir.

Lastly, I stand for treating people equally with respect and dignity and even if they don't agree with me 100% of the time, I can work on the things we do agree on to achieve advancements on all of the above issues and more, sir.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

And I will be happy to tell you again just what I stand for any time you want me too and as many times as you want me to, Sir.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I would vote for a party that stood for all those things. You could call it the Yankee Party!

The Problem has never been you. The Problem is what the Federalists have become. You might stand for all these things, but the Federalists do not and have not been standing for those things for a long time.

We had federalists scuttling an euthanasia bill that it was more important to allow people to kill themselves than to try protect vulnerable people from being killed by the state.

We have federalists putting forth bills to legalize cocaine and heroin.

We had federalists putting forth bills to change birth certificates to eliminate all references to men and women.

We had federalists rewriting federalist budgets to approve of more spending than the previous federalist budget had provided, including in funding that had previously been rejected.

And you wonder why many of us are tired of our beliefs taking a backseat to everything that has to be done, that is just too important.

There are bills coming to legalize prostitution, sponsored again by federalists. Same with gambling.

The list goes on and it is not short. We had federalists pushing bills permitting puberty blockers!

All on your watch as party leader.

A house divided on itself cannot stand, it either will become all one thing or all the other. We are tired of being pushed into a tiny cubbyhole and being told to vote for people who despise us and actively work to marginalize us.

And while a Yankee Party would be amazing, the Federalists are not the Yankee party, and that makes me very sad for both Yankee and the Federalists.  

MARGALINIZE YOU? I HAVE BEEN BEGGING YOU PEOPLE TO RUN FOR OFFICE FOR TEN GOD DAMN YEARS!!!!! Maybe not always you specifically, because you are the ASV of the far right. But ask Rfayette, how many times I helped him get elected to the House. Pushed him to get started campaigning earlier, encouraged him to recruit and find more conservatives to to help get him elected to the House and then run for office themselves later, because of his star power on the right. I have the PMs damn it! And not just him. JCL, TJ, Pingvin, the list goes on! Every election, most of my efforts have gone to helping the more conservative candidates we run turn out the vote, almost without fail. None of them can make this claim that you are making because it is false.

You know how many times I have faced this, "Nah don't wanna" and then six months later, "you used me" canard? Since 2009, it is the same bullsh**t that Hamilton used to justify forming the Populares/ARC. Only then it was Libertarians pulling it. Myself, the leadership, we have stood by our conservative candidates and worked our asses to get them reelected or to even get them to run in the first place.

Your recall was not because of your ideology, it was because you annoyed the hell out of people.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

As for the specific issues you raised, the Federalist Party has always had a strong libertarian tilt on many issues, owing to the fact that this is the internet. I also find it hilarious that you said you would vote for a party supporting the things I listed, which included a statement about the failure of the war on drugs and the negative impacts it has had on families, and yet one of the things you respond with condemning Federalists is for pushing to end the war on drugs.

We have always been pro-equality as part of our general philosophy of equality under the law and uniform application of the bill of rights to all people. This aspect was do in large part to the influence of none other than PiT in 2015 as well as back during the RPP. And it was this atmosphere of libertarianism, perceived moderation and greater degree of respect and tolerance compared to the RL right (as well as the fact that we don't breath down people's backs on conformity like Labor), that attracted Fhtagn to join us in the first place and during her time in office she supported many of the Libertarian positions you just decried above Ben Kenobi.

I understand and realize that people's views can evolve over time, but it takes a lot of willful suspension of disbelief to justify something on a set of grounds that one is complicit in creating yourself. PiT made the Atlasian Right tilt libertarian via the RPP, and pushed it back in that direction in 2015 as Fed Vice Chair. In fact, the contingent of so-cons in the RPP and many of the early Federalists who held those views were recruited by your arch nemsis Tmth or by his recruit Zuwo.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

MARGALINIZE YOU? I HAVE BEEN BEGGING YOU PEOPLE TO RUN FOR OFFICE FOR TEN GOD DAMN YEARS!!!!! Maybe not always you specifically, because you are the ASV of the far right.

You, yes. Party leadership, no. And for those of us in the South, we have dealt with party leadership and not you.

 We're bloody tired of being crapped on by the other 'leaders' of the party who make a career of being moderate heroes at our expense. They kill our bills by not showing up, while we were expected to always back them, vote for them and ensure they got their bills through.

The only Party leadership that this party has had over the course of the last two years is myself, Fhtagn, Leinad, DFW and now Encke, all of which were elected by the Party. Go back another year and you can add PiT and JoMCar to the list.

I remember being screamed at by said moderate hero leadership for opposing their power grabs on the stance that rule of law should prevail.

You know as well as I that I have longstanding legitimate grievances with party leadership.

Office holders, are not Party leadership. We elect our leaders and then I appoint support staff as needed. Others who show promise as engaging in leadership activities, such as helping in elections etc, are thus made contenders for future leadership positions

I have had many folks come in today and said that you have done many things for them. Many of them stayed in the Federalists for as long as they did because they admire and respect you.

I feel the same. Great leader in Yankee, sh**tty party. Big tents only work if leadership is balanced, and right now that's not the case with the Federalists. THe folks calling the shots, at least for the past several years have been said moderate heroes.

What the hell are you talking about, Fhtagn and PiT were in the leadership! You cannot preserve a balance when one side insists on disengaging.

This split has been a long time in coming. The only reason it didn't happen earlier is because of all the work you've put in.

So let's have a true moderate hero party in the Federalists, and we will stand for what we believe.

Look I am not going to lose the party I have poured blood sweat and tears into because the people I begged to get more involved for the precise reason of stopping such such problems that had with it, only to have them decline and now come forward claiming they were marginalized or party is x, y, z and they don't like it. Where was the effort, involvement and interest then? People like ASV, or YT or whoever, achieve there outsized rolls because others don't engage. If we had mass engagement, like I have fought for and desired only to have it sucked away by discord and disinterest, concerns about them advancing views hostile to their own would not be as problematic. Because people would have seen and felt what had become the vast silent majority of Federalists, they wouldn't be silent.

I will not stand by and watch people straw man the Federalist Party and separate all of my actions from it and attach every action to such that they disagreed with and turn it into some diseased limb to be amputated.

For two god damn years I have put up the with the bullsh**t narratives and I am tired of it. I am tired of people putting words into my mouth, I am tired of people twisting non-conformity, that they themselves have benefited from into a crime against them. And I am tired of people saying we don't have a brand, or we need to get a brand.

Our brand is right on the tin, always has been. We want the Regions to be strengthened, empowered and a balanced federal government to protect them from centralized authority. That has been the standard unifying principle of the Atlasian right, since you guessed it, PiT and the gang revived the right on that basis. We advanced that agenda successfully in the Con-con, on healthcare, on education, on administration of Regional Senate seats and many, many other successes.

I am tired, so damn tired of people talking about bs memes all day on discord to the point where no one discusses issues anymore, which effects all the parties. If that weren't the case, this would not up for discussion as to whether or not we have a brand, but people don't talk nearly enough about it, except for me.

ACPers helped make the Federalist Party what it is today. Now ironically, I don't think you actually speak for PiT and Fhtagn in making these posts about what you hate about the Federalists. Because I doubt they would go as far as you have, frankly I think your issues are guided by your own personal dislike for certain people. Last I knew, Fhtagn was still friends with some of these people.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

As for the specific issues you raised, the Federalist Party has always had a strong libertarian tilt on many issues, owing to the fact that this is the internet. I also find it hilarious that you said you would vote for a party supporting the things I listed, which included a statement about the failure of the war on drugs and the negative impacts it has had on families, and yet one of the things you respond with condemning Federalists is for pushing to end the war on drugs.

I specifically said that I objected to the legalization of cocaine and heroin. I am not the only one who had significant issues with this policy. At the time or now, there were quite a few Federalists that were angry with this policy being pushed by their party.

We have always been pro-equality as part of our general philosophy of equality under the law and uniform application of the bill of rights to all people. This aspect was do in large part to the influence of none other than PiT in 2015 as well as back during the RPP.

As we have seen both in RL and here, that equality has morphed far beyond equality. You don't see the insanity of a state suing a cake decorator for choosing not to bake a cake? You cannot claim to be a libertarian and support suing businesses into oblivion for declining work contrary to their reputation. Christian businesses have a market and they need to be able to operate within their model without harassment. If there were a shortage of bakers I could see the argument, but the cases that have all been filed have been from plaintiffs who went out of their way to find specific businesses to target.

That ain't libertarianism. That is full on statism, using the full apparatus of the state to destroy 'dissenters'. How is that any different than what occurred at Salem?

that attracted Fhtagn to join us in the first place and during her time in office she supported many of the Libertarian positions you just decried above Ben Kenobi.

This has more relevance to you than me. Why would someone like this not feel comfortable in the Fed party? People and parties change, not always for the better. She liked the arrangement with the ACP at the time, and it actually worked quite well for everyone involved.

That setup failed because of one person that I have to point fingers at. Me.

I understand and realize that people's views can evolve over time, but it takes a lot of willful suspension of disbelief to justify something on a set of grounds that one is complicit in creating yourself. PiT made the Atlasian Right tilt libertarian via the RPP, and pushed it back in that direction in 2015 as Fed Vice Chair. In fact, the contingent of so-cons in the RPP and many of the early Federalists who held those views were recruited by your arch nemsis Tmth or by his recruit Zuwo.

Those are all questions you should be asking yourself, not me. If they wish to talk about it that will be up to them, not me. 

You are the ones who posted these justifications for the outrage, not me. The inconsistency is stunning.

And you seem to be the only one interested in a dynamic conversation, the others just seem to spout talking points like they are customer service robots.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

The only Party leadership that this party has had over the course of the last two years is myself, Fhtagn, Leinad, DFW and now Encke, all of which were elected by the Party. Go back another year and you can add PiT and JoMCar to the list.

Encke, I have never dealt with personally, so my comments do not apply to him. Two of those are now laborites who have left the party and the other just did.

That *alone* speaks volumes.

Secondly, it should be pretty obvious who I am referring to in my comment as party 'leadership' the folks I had to deal with everyday in the South.

Just because you hate someone, doesn't mean they are leadership. I know exactly who are you are referring to, and for a large part of early last year he was not even in the Party. Many ACPers have worked with and collaborated with him since his return, so this seems rather difficult to buy into.

What the hell are you talking about, Fhtagn and PiT were in the leadership! You cannot preserve a balance when one side insists on disengaging.

The reason the ACP arrangement worked is that it actually fixed the party. It finally gave you what you needed was a tradcon wing. You haven't had that since. It allowed us to pick our own leader.

We could have done that from within the Feds as well if people had stepped up and engaged in the caucus system instead of constantly ignoring it passively.
 

Look I am not going to lose the party I have poured blood sweat and tears into because the people I begged to get more involved for the precise reason of stopping such such problems that had with it, only to have them decline and now come forward claiming they were marginalized or party is x, y, z and they don't like it. Where was the effort, involvement and interest then?

If this is directed at me, life, mostly. School and work for the most part.

Yes, RL does come first, but it doesn't change the fact that said engagement could have happened within the Federalist Party a year ago, six months ago, a month ago, when I asked many people to do just that.

Because people would have seen and felt what had become the vast silent majority of Federalists, they wouldn't be silent.

Look at all this engagement when they get a party that is responsive to *their* needs. It's quite obvious to me, and I've been away that the interest was there they just weren't getting fed by the Feds. This is how parties form when they fit natural niches. A tradcon party fits that niche well.

This wasn't a supply issue, the Federalist Party extended many of these people a hand and they declined. For whatever reason they did, and if they had not, the Federalist Party wouldn't be so icky moderate hero or whatever the line is.

The Federalists are very similar to the Provincial Liberal party in British Columbia, a counter socialist alliance. It has similar issues that you are facing now regarding branding. It doesn't really stand for anything as a merger of two different parties and runs into issues when it starts to delve into ideologies which exposes these divisions. But it is essential as a merger of tradcons and business in order to stop the socialists. But we have a different voting system than here.

We don't advance the interests of business, we advance the free and competitive market. There is a difference, and the Federalist party has no desire to be an alliance of corporate fascists. We are an alliance of conservatives who favor a smaller federal gov't, free market competition, and the protection of life and liberty.

ACPers helped make the Federalist Party what it is today. Now ironically, I don't think you actually speak for PiT and Fhtagn in making these posts about what you hate about the Federalists. Because I doubt they would go as far as you have, frankly I think your issues are guided by your own personal dislike for certain people. Last I knew, Fhtagn was still friends with some of these people.

I haven't spoken for either of them and have specifically said that they can speak for themselves. But they do have issues with the Federalists. My issues touch on broader issues within the party. You are right that their issues are not as deep as mine, but you might want to consider DFW's observations.

Things are different now than before. It really is not about me at all.

Then why did you post a list of personal grievances then?  You justify the ACP on that basis, then say you are not in charge anymore, when faced with contradictions. This is recipe for the party sharing many of those same deficiencies considering that the same people who run ACP also had prominent roles in the Federalist Party and its leadership.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Making this its own post:

Our brand is right on the tin, always has been. We want the Regions to be strengthened, empowered and a balanced federal government to protect them from centralized authority. That has been the standard unifying principle of the Atlasian right, since you guessed it, PiT and the gang revived the right on that basis. We advanced that agenda successfully in the Con-con, on healthcare, on education, on administration of Regional Senate seats and many, many other successes.

Most of which has been rolled back subsequently, some by the Federalists themselves. Two points here. "strengthening the regions" is not a significant policy paper. The stuff we have been working on is a significant policy paper, because it represents actual ideologies that you see in the world.

State's rights doesn't exist in the real world? Constitutional Conservatism doesn't exist in the real word? Federalist Society doesn't exist in the real world? They most certainly do, but RL politics uses catch phrases and token statements to curry support, while this other stuff gets carried along for the ride. We respect our members and the voters of Atlasia far more than subject them to vapid, empty faux ideologies that dominate in RL politics, and those RL ideologies you talk about, actually do use and abuse conservatives on a rampant and repetitive basis. When is the last time the GOP successfully marketized an entitlement? We have done so, TWICE! When is the last time the GOP successfully returned education to the states. We voted for a bill by Peebs ironically, that did just that. And it was not a Fed who tried to water it down, it was Transit. And I fought like hell to stop it. When is the last time the GOP succeeded in reversing the tide of centralized power? We have on all of the issues I listed above. When has the GOP last successfully cut the deficit? We have been cutting the deficit over the course of the past year.


The real life conservative movement has been corrupted by special interests and that is why every time the GOP gets power, it falls flat on its behind at doing anything except cutting taxes. We have actually succeeded in accomplishing and implementing polices in line with our platform and yes our brand. The notion that you want the Atlasian right to look more like the real life right should send shock waves down the spine of any self respecting conservative who desires actual results instead of talking points, grand standing and martyrdom complexes that dominate the GOP Congressional delegation, and is the bulk of the reason why they lost the majority and thwarted their attempts to repeal Obamacare.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

We could have done that from within the Feds as well if people had stepped up and engaged in the caucus system instead of constantly ignoring it passively.

Well, I suppose as the other end of that I can comment freely on this now.

Satellite status had five advantages.

1. Bypassing the rest of Fed leadership entirely to deal with just you. Huge plus.

2. Greater policy independence. Another Huge plus. We could do a lot of cool stuff that caucus wouldn't let us do.

3. Sheltering Fed moderate heroes. 

4. Mentoring ACP caucus. More leadership opportunities and letting folks shine who would not get those opportunities in the Fed party.

5. What I call the 'penal colony' effect.

Caucus offered more org support from the Feds. It has it's positives too.

1. Right because we have such a big leadership team.

2. Greater policy independence? The caucus system was designed to control the platform. omg

3. The number of moderate heroes is smaller than you seem to to think. And as for protection from controversial Feds? I helped reelect Fairbol back in as Governor and then got elected President two months later with a lot a number of crossover votes.

4. I let people who have responsibilities who showed interest and activity. The Federalist Party has never shut people out excluded them, the fact that people like Fhtagn became Vice Chair just months after being a Laborite, should illustrate that openness. It has always been about effort and interest, not ideology.

5. I don't look down upon conservatives to the point that they should feel the need to be in a penal colony. Nor should anyone else. What makes this game fun is the diversity of contesting opinions and the tendency to drive conservatives out of the discourse is something Federalists and yes our party as a whole has fought against for years. 

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Yes, RL does come first, but it doesn't change the fact that said engagement could have happened within the Federalist Party a year ago, six months ago, a month ago, when I asked many people to do just that.

Cannot speak for a year ago. Wasn't there for it. Six months ago to now would be trust issues. You don't KO the dude generally perceived as the biggest tradcon and expect to get other tradcons to step in.

We didn't KO the biggest Tradcon. The biggest "traditionalist conservative" in this game is myself. I don't consider you a tradcon at all, because you supported Ted Cruz and opposed Trump. I have never seen you even use that term before now.

And you weren't KOed because you were a trad con, you were recalled because of your behavior and low activity.

Many ACPers have worked with and collaborated with him since his return, so this seems rather difficult to buy into.

Forget that. Taking the broader view. DFW is gone, and so is Leinad, and they have nothing to do with us. You have lost most of your leadership. Obviously the problems are greater than us.

I wasn't talking about Leinad and DFW, Ben.

Most every former Federalist Leader has become a lefty. The only thing different here, is they have become more conservative, but the result is the same. This trend goes back to 2013 with Hagrid and Maxwell. Only myself, and Tmth have remained relatively constant in our views.  This isn't because of us as a party, but in most circumstances such as Hagrid adn Maxwell, because the demographics on this site are among an age cohort where ideology is still in flux.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

We didn't KO the biggest Tradcon. The biggest "traditionalist conservative" in this game is myself. I don't consider you a tradcon at all, because you supported Ted Cruz and opposed Trump. I have never seen you even use that term before now.

You've never been a tradcon. You've always been more in the libertarian/centrist wing. Some of your views are in variance with a traditional conservative re homosexual marriage.

I personally prefer socon for myself. Trump also isn't a tradcon. Cruz/Santorum would be traditional conservatives.

Traditionalist conservatism, also known as classical conservatism and traditional conservatism, is a philosophy emphasizing the need for the principles of a transcendent moral order, manifested through certain natural laws to which society ought to conform in a prudent manner.[1] Shortened to traditionalism and in the United Kingdom and Canada referred to as Toryism, traditionalist conservatism is a variant of conservatism based on the political philosophies of Aristotle and Edmund Burke.[1] Traditionalists emphasize the bonds of social order and the defense of ancestral institutions over hyper-individualism.[1]

I am very great fan of Edmund Burke, have repeatedly criticized hyper individualism as recently as the smoking debate in the Fremont region. I believe firmly in natural rights and the belief that they are given by god, not by the state. I have criticized the destruction of traditional economic structures that have sustained and supported the family and have emphasized the importance of shifting our economic policies to preserve societal stability, rather than pursue textbook neo-liberal dogma. I have some socially libertarian views, but many of them are guided by an analysis of the results such as the war on drugs where the end result has been destructive of the family, not helpful towards. I hate drugs, but taking fathers out of homes because of a little weed, doesn't make for a stable society.  Burke was a realist and he questioned authority at times when it was corrupt or not achieving the desired results. Burke was also a former Whig who crafted from whole cloth a form of Conservatism that embraced enlightenment ideals while rejecting the chaos, extremism and radicalism of the French Revolution.

You on the other hand have a long history and even in this thread of endorsing hook line and sinker the economic philosophy of the real life American Conservative movement, which is not traditionalist conservative, it is neoliberal. You also endorsed the war on drugs, which has had such horrendous impacts on the family.

You are right though Trump is not a traditionalist conservative, but the dividing lines between Trump and Cruz in the primary, was one of an economic approach structured around traditional conservativism (ie preserving the stability of the family and community), versus the movement conservative approach that favors hyper individuals economically and rejects it socially and wonders why they act at cross purposes all the time. Trump even said in a debate, that his definition of conservativism was to "conserve, to conserve your family, your job, your community and your way of life". In the same debate Rubio and Cruz peddled the same talking points the GOP has for years on the same question, which is in effect an endorsement of neoliberal economics.

Hating gay people doesn't make you a traditional conservative, many real life Republicans do that that I would never grant them the title of traditional conservatism to. It does make you a social conservative, which as you said you prefer. Please then don't appropriate terms in that case.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

State's rights doesn't exist in the real world? Constitutional Conservatism doesn't exist in the real word? Federalist Society doesn't exist in the real world? They most certainly do, but RL politics uses catch phrases and token statements to curry support, while this other stuff gets carried along for the ride. We respect our members and the voters of Atlasia far more than subject them to vapid, empty faux ideologies that dominate in RL politics, and those RL ideologies you talk about, actually do use and abuse conservatives on a rampant and repetitive basis. When is the last time the GOP successfully marketized an entitlement? We have done so, TWICE! When is the last time the GOP successfully returned education to the states. We voted for a bill by Peebs ironically, that did just that. And it was not a Fed who tried to water it down, it was Transit. And I fought like hell to stop it. When is the last time the GOP succeeded in reversing the tide of centralized power? We have on all of the issues I listed above. When has the GOP last successfully cut the deficit? We have been cutting the deficit over the course of the past year.

Agreed, as have some of the things we have done in the south. It's not in your actual platform, though, or at least it wasn't unless things have changed over the last while. From what I recall you would keep the platform as open as possible to accommodate a few folks. Which is understandable, but doesn't let you do policy papers per se.

This is our platform:  https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=237285.msg5132879#msg5132879

It has been since 2017.

Policy papers? You want policy papers? I would be fine with policy papers, at several times we have had such. The lack of such has been because of the generalized lack of engagement on issues, which again effects all parties in this game and connects with the rise of Mibbit/Discord.

The real life conservative movement has been corrupted by special interests and that is why every time the GOP gets power, it falls flat on its behind at doing anything except cutting taxes. We have actually succeeded in accomplishing and implementing polices in line with our platform and yes our brand. The notion that you want the Atlasian right to look more like the real life right should send shock waves down the spine of any self respecting conservative who desires actual results instead of talking points, grand standing and martyrdom complexes that dominate the GOP Congressional delegation, and is the bulk of the reason why they lost the majority and thwarted their attempts to repeal Obamacare.

Again, I don't want to pre-empt what we have coming. You'll see what we're doing soon enough. I suspect you will be pleased.

So far, nothing about this process has been pleasing, or anything other than an excruciatingly painful case of torture that is exceeding the pain I experienced from dealing with the #Atlasforum nutcases, and I doubt that will change.

If guys are trying to kill me, you are doing a magnificent job.