Misc Articles (Amendment, Supremacy, Officeholding, &c) LAST CALL for new topics

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

RESULTS of the PRINCIPLE VOTE on CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS

First Count
Plan A   6
Plan B   3
Plan C   1
Plan D   8

Second Count
Plan A   6
Plan B   4
Plan D   8

Third Count
Plan A   8
Plan D   10

By a majority of two votes, PLAN D has been ADOPTED.

In retrospect, it's probably for the best that Plan D won out. This way we have a process for amending the Constitution that is time-tested and absolved of the controversy that would have dogged the other three plans.

Alright, moving along! I'll propose an amendment to incorporate the results of this vote shortly; after that, we'll proceed to the legislative process and then (hopefully) a final vote.

[Prince of Salem]

1. Plan D
2. Plan C
3. Plan B
4. Plan A

FTR

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

I offer the following amendment:

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As should be evident, this amendment affirms the results of the latest principle vote. Delegates have 24 hours to object.

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

RESULTS of the PRINCIPLE VOTE on CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS

First Count
Plan A   6
Plan B   3
Plan C   1
Plan D   8

Second Count
Plan A   6
Plan B   4
Plan D   8

Third Count
Plan A   8
Plan D   10

By a majority of two votes, PLAN D has been ADOPTED.

In retrospect, it's probably for the best that Plan D won out. This way we have a process for amending the Constitution that is time-tested and absolved of the controversy that would have dogged the other three plans.

Alright, moving along! I'll propose an amendment to incorporate the results of this vote shortly; after that, we'll proceed to the legislative process and then (hopefully) a final vote.

Glorious news!

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

RESULTS of the PRINCIPLE VOTE on CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS

First Count
Plan A   6
Plan B   3
Plan C   1
Plan D   8

Second Count
Plan A   6
Plan B   4
Plan D   8

Third Count
Plan A   8
Plan D   10

By a majority of two votes, PLAN D has been ADOPTED.

In retrospect, it's probably for the best that Plan D won out. This way we have a process for amending the Constitution that is time-tested and absolved of the controversy that would have dogged the other three plans.

Alright, moving along! I'll propose an amendment to incorporate the results of this vote shortly; after that, we'll proceed to the legislative process and then (hopefully) a final vote.

Glorious news!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mirPnfe6dAE

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

Seeing no objection, the amendment has been adopted.

Alright, the last item on the table is the relationship between the Senate and the House. Several delegates raised this as an issue they would like to see debated, so I'm sure we'll have lot's of input.

There are three questions to be answered here:
          1. Who can introduce legislation? The Senate? The House? Both?
          2. Who can amend legislation? The house that introduced the bill? The other? Both?
          3. If a bill is amended by a house other than the one that introduced the bill, does it go
          straight to the president or to a second vote in the original house?

The simplest way to do this is to allow both the Senate and the House to answer 1. Any other plan might lead to one house becoming irrelevant or, worse, kindling animosity between the Regionally-elected Senate and the generally-elected House. On 2, I have a more open mind, but generally think "both" is the right answer here as well. On 3, I think that bills should go straight to the president after they have been passed by both houses, as opposed to heading to a second vote in the original house: otherwise, the legislative process - which is already going to take longer than it does currently - will be much more complicated and thus less transparent.

If we're in broad agreement, I can draw up an amendment detailing how this will work post haste. If you have an opinion on this issue (and you all should), please SAY SO - even if you're just empty quoting what someone else said, it will be much easier to proceed if I can gauge public opinion, and I can't do that if nobody says anything.

[Blair]

I'd be interested in seeing seeing some differences between the two houses- have we already covered the issue of who approves nominees etc?

I'd also lean towards the traditional role of having budgets voted on in the house only

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

I'd be interested in seeing seeing some differences between the two houses- have we already covered the issue of who approves nominees etc?

Yes - that would be the Senate.

I'd also lean towards the traditional role of having budgets voted on in the house only

I'm fine with this.

[Prince of Salem]

I'd too lean towards the traditional roles, given the fact that our bicameral system would be of similar nature of RL US Congress.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

I offer the following amendment:

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Basically, this amendment fills the remaining blanks in the legislative process. If anyone sees any other flaws, say so and I will fix them. Clause ii has already been approved during the debate on Congress.

Delegates have 24 hours to object.

[GA > OH, FL, NC]

It may already be covered here in terms of broad implication, but if one chamber amends a bill, what is the process for it returning to the second chamber? Is there going to be potential for an unlimited back-and-forth with versions of bills being proposed, passed and rejected, or will we have some sort of firm cut-off when it comes to the number of times any one chamber can pass a bill to send to the other? A period of time that legislation can be debated before it dies?  

Also, I echo the concerns for needing some unique elements to each chamber with respect to day-to-day operations. It's no secret that as of late, I've been burned out - I spent so long trying to get the ConCon going, it seems that I've run out of steam near the finish line. What I'm trying to say is that months and years ago, I had a lot of ideas when it came to this specific subject, but for the life of me I cannot think of anything along these lines right now.

Additionally, are we going to cover any specifics in the Constitution for how each chamber elects its leaders (it's been so long that I'm forgetting whether or not we already covered this)?

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

And I thought I had it bad.


I actually made a post about a cap on the number of times a bill should be considered, but the post got lost in that 3 AM site freezing crap it appears.

I would say the originating chamber gets 1 vote on whether or not to accept the bill as amended, if Aye, it goes to the President. If no, the VP then sends it back to the other chamber with instructions for an up or down vote on the bill as it originally passed in the originating chamber. If yes, it goes to the President, if nay, it dies. You could even have the VP administer these votes themselves to save time.

With competent VPs, Senate PPTs (Yes I know that technically Senate's leader is undefined ), and House Speakers that process should take no more then a day or two at the most.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

Seeing no objection, the amendment has been adopted.


On the question of amendment, I basically agree with what Yankee said. I therefore offer the following amendment:

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Delegates have 24 hours to object. Thoughts?

EDIT: Deleted duplicate "otherwise" (grammatical fix)

[GA > OH, FL, NC]

Ugh, can somebody do a flow-chart like description for this? I'm having a hard time understanding the process.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Senate Passes Bill => House Amends Bills => Senate voteds on Amended Bill

Senate passes amended bill => Sent to President
Senate rejects amendment bill => House Votes on Senate bill minus House Amendment

House Passes Original Senate Version => PResident for Signature
House Rejects Original Senate Versions => Bill Dies

[MyRescueKittehRocks]

Senate Passes Bill => House Amends Bills => Senate voteds on Amended Bill

Senate passes amended bill => Sent to President
Senate rejects amendment bill => House Votes on Senate bill minus House Amendment

House Passes Original Senate Version => PResident for Signature
House Rejects Original Senate Versions => Bill Dies

Sounds about right. What about conference committees in the event of house/senate difference on a bill? That would be within our efforts to keep it largely like the American System.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

Seeing no objection, the amendment has been adopted.

What about conference committees in the event of house/senate difference on a bill? That would be within our efforts to keep it largely like the American System.

Not a bad idea by any means, but I don't think it belongs in the Constitution. Perhaps we could address this when the new Congress sets about adopting its Rules of Order.


Ladies and Gentlemen: THE TIME HAS COME for you to make any last-minute queries before we move to a final vote. Every topic hitherto proposed has been debated, voted on, and incorporated into the Constitution. If anyone has a last-minute proposal, you have 24 hours to make it known; otherwise, we will move ahead with a grammar-check of the adopted text and then a FINAL final vote.

For reference, here is the text adopted in this thread:

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[/quote]

[GA > OH, FL, NC]

Since the House's specific method of election is not described in the Constitution, is there any need to specify (like we did with the Judicial Branch) a certain level of continuity in terms of what specific method the temporary Elections Officer must use?

Also...while it may be self-serving, are we really going to have an election for President and Vice President that will have less than two weeks of campaigning? I think we should amend this and just allow Duke and I to finish our terms. Besides, there is no inherent need for a fresh election in this regard: it's necessary for the House and the Senate since there are inherent changes in the number of people in the chamber and how they're elected (and also that the House is being freshly created).

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Why don't we juse insert a clause directing the use of STV until the new gov't can pass its own legislation on the matter. We know it best, and last I knew, it worked better with 9 seats then five anyway. Lower quotas and much more competitive.


We can always change it if it doesn't work when we pass a permenent system with a representation act of some kind.

[GA > OH, FL, NC]

I also propose the following amendment:

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[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

You better not do anything crazy until the Legislature is fully assembled.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

Delegates have 24 hours to object.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

Seeing no objection, Griffin's Amendment has been adopted.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

I offer the following amendment:

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Delegates have 24 hours to object.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     When you say Game Engine, what specifically do you mean?