Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
       |           

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
March 28, 2024, 09:15:59 AM
News: Election Simulator 2.0 Released. Senate/Gubernatorial maps, proportional electoral votes, and more - Read more

  Talk Elections
  General Politics
  Political Debate (Moderator: Torie)
  Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
« previous next »
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5
Poll
Question: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?
#1
yes
 
#2
no
 
#3
no, and I see what you're trying to do here and it's not going to work
 
Show Pie Chart
Partisan results

Total Voters: 190

Author Topic: Should a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding?  (Read 17730 times)
Medal506
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 1,802
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #75 on: December 16, 2017, 12:34:38 AM »

Political allegiance isn't a protected class, nor should it be.

We should have no protected classes since in the United States we should be equally protected under the law
Logged
Medal506
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 1,802
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #76 on: December 16, 2017, 12:39:30 AM »

The difference between a Gay wedding and a Nazi one is that denying a Nazi wedding is a matter of free speech and not flat out discrimination, and I do believe most everyone here would agree that the business owner has the right to limit free speech on the property that they have no right to own.

Dumbass denying a gay wedding is also a matter of free speech and it's not discrimination. If you deny service to someone simply because they're gay then yes that is discrimination and you either should be allowed to discriminate against anyone or not allowed to discriminate against anyone. In other words since we're a country where everyone is equal under the law I'd you are required to service a gay couplethen you have to be required to service a nazi couple. Or if you're allowed to discriminate against the nazi couple then you should be allowed to discriminate against the gay couple. That's basically just called being consistent and not a dumbass socialist.
Logged
Medal506
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 1,802
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #77 on: December 16, 2017, 12:41:14 AM »

No, and the Nazis buying the cake should have the sh**t beat out of them.

As to gay wedding cakes, if a business is not going to sell a cake to a gay couple the government shouldn't do anything, but it wouldn't be a tragedy if that business was burnt to the ground.

Someone's frustrated he can't get laid
Logged
Kingpoleon
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 22,144
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #78 on: December 24, 2017, 04:07:16 PM »

CLICK HERE TO FIND OUT YOUR IDEOLOGY WITH JUST TWO SIMPLE QUESTIONS!!!


your answer to the forcing the baker to make a gay wedding cake and forcing them to make the Nazi cake should be the same.
if your answer is:
Yes/Yes, you are a consistent authoritarian
Yes/No you are an inconsistent SJW
No/Yes you are alt-right
No/No, you are a libertarian or a conservative
not your entire ideology but it tests whether you are a hypocrite or not!
First of all, not everybody has to be a “libertarian/conservative,” “alt-right” or an “inconsistent SJW”. You continue to derogate Democrats, which merely serves to expose your own partisan idiocy and inconsistency. I disagree with the position of people who would say you have to make a cake for a gay couple, but I don’t start calling them names for it. That’s where you went wrong.
Logged
catographer
Megameow
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 1,498
United States
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #79 on: January 05, 2018, 05:10:04 AM »

Yeah, frankly the law is clear. There are specific protected classes of historically marginalized minority groups; based on race, gender, sexual orientation, religion, disability, etc. Political affiliation isn't on that list. So, denying service to someone based on their politics isn't illegal, but doing so based on sexuality is.

Is that right? Should it be different? I think the law right now is fine; it generally protects people based on immutable characteristics (with religion as an exception). It applies to everyone equally to; I can't deny service to a straight couple because they're heterosexual. A Nazi can refuse to serve a Communist, and vice-versa.
Logged
catographer
Megameow
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 1,498
United States
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #80 on: January 05, 2018, 05:16:57 AM »

I think people here may need reminding as to why anti-discrimination statutes were created to begin with. Black people were being denied service in public establishments across the country, forced to either find somewhere else to do business or create their own establishments that would serve them. It was a case of separate-but-equal.

Let's remember too the harms to an individual when they're discriminated against in public accommodations. Say they need to stay in a hotel in town for a job interview. Uh-oh, the hotel refuses to rent them a room. No job interview; no job. Economic harm.
Logged
Medal506
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 1,802
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #81 on: January 08, 2018, 11:50:24 PM »

Yeah, frankly the law is clear. There are specific protected classes of historically marginalized minority groups; based on race, gender, sexual orientation, religion, disability, etc. Political affiliation isn't on that list. So, denying service to someone based on their politics isn't illegal, but doing so based on sexuality is.

Is that right? Should it be different? I think the law right now is fine; it generally protects people based on immutable characteristics (with religion as an exception). It applies to everyone equally to; I can't deny service to a straight couple because they're heterosexual. A Nazi can refuse to serve a Communist, and vice-versa.


Dumbass there's no law in the United States that says bakers have to serve gay wedding cakes and there shouldn't be any protected classes since we're all supposed to be equal under the law
Logged
catographer
Megameow
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 1,498
United States
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #82 on: January 09, 2018, 01:56:14 AM »
« Edited: January 09, 2018, 01:58:05 AM by megameow »

Yeah, frankly the law is clear. There are specific protected classes of historically marginalized minority groups; based on race, gender, sexual orientation, religion, disability, etc. Political affiliation isn't on that list. So, denying service to someone based on their politics isn't illegal, but doing so based on sexuality is.

Is that right? Should it be different? I think the law right now is fine; it generally protects people based on immutable characteristics (with religion as an exception). It applies to everyone equally to; I can't deny service to a straight couple because they're heterosexual. A Nazi can refuse to serve a Communist, and vice-versa.


Dumbass there's no law in the United States that says bakers have to serve gay wedding cakes and there shouldn't be any protected classes since we're all supposed to be equal under the law

I should clarify then, only in states and jurisdictions where anti-discrimination laws are on the books (which includes many states for LGBT, and federal law for race, religion, and gender), are there "specific protected classes of historically marginalized minority groups." It's debatable whether bakers who are morally opposed to same-sex marriage have to serve a cake to the couple. In my estimation, the bakers are admittedly denying service to the couple because of their sexual orientation (they don't want to serve a homosexual wedding, whereas they'd be fine with a heterosexual one). Therefore I think that that would be illegal according to anti-discrimination laws.

"Protected classes" are not specific groups of people, nor do they accord any additional rights to anyone compared to others. Protected classes, at least the way I used that term in what I said, means attributes of individuals that cannot be the basis for discrimination. 100% of citizens have a race, gender, sexuality, or religious belief. Therefore, 100% of citizens are protected by anti-discrimination laws and are in "protected classes." The impetus for creating the laws however was/is to specifically defend historically marginalized minorities from being discriminated against by those in the majority; anti-discrimination laws aim to protect minority rights and ensure that everyone is "equal under the law."

Hope that cleared up what I was saying, because I don't think you understood me well. Also, it is probably against forum rules for you to call me a "dumbass" like that, but I won't report you.
Logged
Cold War Liberal
KennedyWannabe99
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 2,284
United States


Political Matrix
E: -6.13, S: -6.53

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #83 on: January 10, 2018, 11:46:16 AM »

Yeah, frankly the law is clear. There are specific protected classes of historically marginalized minority groups; based on race, gender, sexual orientation, religion, disability, etc. Political affiliation isn't on that list. So, denying service to someone based on their politics isn't illegal, but doing so based on sexuality is.

Is that right? Should it be different? I think the law right now is fine; it generally protects people based on immutable characteristics (with religion as an exception). It applies to everyone equally to; I can't deny service to a straight couple because they're heterosexual. A Nazi can refuse to serve a Communist, and vice-versa.


Dumbass there's no law in the United States that says bakers have to serve gay wedding cakes and there shouldn't be any protected classes since we're all supposed to be equal under the law
Here's the key phrase. It doesn't always work that way in practice, like when, say, a baker denies basic goods and services to a couple because the baker doesn't agree with them personally.
Logged
hunter gatherer
rascalking
Rookie
**
Posts: 85


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #84 on: January 10, 2018, 08:27:00 PM »

CLICK HERE TO FIND OUT YOUR IDEOLOGY WITH JUST TWO SIMPLE QUESTIONS!!!


your answer to the forcing the baker to make a gay wedding cake and forcing them to make the Nazi cake should be the same.
if your answer is:
Yes/Yes, you are a consistent authoritarian
Yes/No you are an inconsistent SJW
No/Yes you are alt-right
No/No, you are a libertarian or a conservative

LOL.
Logged
Kingpoleon
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 22,144
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #85 on: January 11, 2018, 07:03:45 PM »

Yeah, frankly the law is clear. There are specific protected classes of historically marginalized minority groups; based on race, gender, sexual orientation, religion, disability, etc. Political affiliation isn't on that list. So, denying service to someone based on their politics isn't illegal, but doing so based on sexuality is.

Is that right? Should it be different? I think the law right now is fine; it generally protects people based on immutable characteristics (with religion as an exception). It applies to everyone equally to; I can't deny service to a straight couple because they're heterosexual. A Nazi can refuse to serve a Communist, and vice-versa.


Dumbass there's no law in the United States that says bakers have to serve gay wedding cakes and there shouldn't be any protected classes since we're all supposed to be equal under the law

Why did you immediately resort to name-calling??
Logged
catographer
Megameow
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 1,498
United States
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #86 on: January 12, 2018, 12:27:45 AM »

Yeah, frankly the law is clear. There are specific protected classes of historically marginalized minority groups; based on race, gender, sexual orientation, religion, disability, etc. Political affiliation isn't on that list. So, denying service to someone based on their politics isn't illegal, but doing so based on sexuality is.

Is that right? Should it be different? I think the law right now is fine; it generally protects people based on immutable characteristics (with religion as an exception). It applies to everyone equally to; I can't deny service to a straight couple because they're heterosexual. A Nazi can refuse to serve a Communist, and vice-versa.


Dumbass there's no law in the United States that says bakers have to serve gay wedding cakes and there shouldn't be any protected classes since we're all supposed to be equal under the law

Why did you immediately resort to name-calling??

I really want his reply to my argument too. D:
Logged
SWE
SomebodyWhoExists
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 13,233
United States


P P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #87 on: January 12, 2018, 04:09:53 PM »

your answer to the forcing the baker to make a gay wedding cake and forcing them to make the Nazi cake should be the same.
if your answer is:
Yes/Yes, you are a consistent authoritarian
Yes/No you are an inconsistent SJW
No/Yes you are alt-right
No/No, you are a libertarian or a conservative
Ah yes, the four genders
Logged
All Along The Watchtower
Progressive Realist
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 15,417
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #88 on: January 18, 2018, 03:53:02 PM »

your answer to the forcing the baker to make a gay wedding cake and forcing them to make the Nazi cake should be the same.
if your answer is:
Yes/Yes, you are a consistent authoritarian
Yes/No you are an inconsistent SJW
No/Yes you are alt-right
No/No, you are a libertarian or a conservative
Ah yes, the four genders

Can't argue with The Political Compass (TM).
Logged
Torie
Moderator
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 46,057
Ukraine


Political Matrix
E: -3.48, S: -4.70

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #89 on: January 20, 2018, 11:29:15 AM »

I don't think anyone should be forced to bake a cake that has a theme on it that they dislike. But one should not discriminate based on the status of the buyer. So the baker has to sell a cake to a Nazi for a Nazi wedding, if the cake itself is a Nazi free zone. I draw a distinction between denying over the counter sales, and personal services.
Logged
America Needs a 13-6 Progressive SCOTUS
Solid4096
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 8,730


Political Matrix
E: -8.88, S: -8.51

P P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #90 on: January 20, 2018, 11:35:47 AM »

I don't think anyone should be forced to bake a cake that has a theme on it that they dislike. But one should not discriminate based on the status of the buyer. So the baker has to sell a cake to a Nazi for a Nazi wedding, if the cake itself is a Nazi free zone. I draw a distinction between denying over the counter sales, and personal services.
This
Logged
teafarm99
Rookie
**
Posts: 30
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #91 on: February 18, 2018, 12:14:44 PM »

No cakes for either Nazis or Homos unless there is consent!!
Logged
Badger
badger
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 40,237
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #92 on: February 26, 2018, 11:39:05 AM »

Yeah, frankly the law is clear. There are specific protected classes of historically marginalized minority groups; based on race, gender, sexual orientation, religion, disability, etc. Political affiliation isn't on that list. So, denying service to someone based on their politics isn't illegal, but doing so based on sexuality is.

Is that right? Should it be different? I think the law right now is fine; it generally protects people based on immutable characteristics (with religion as an exception). It applies to everyone equally to; I can't deny service to a straight couple because they're heterosexual. A Nazi can refuse to serve a Communist, and vice-versa.

Correct answer, fwiw
Logged
Oswald Acted Alone, You Kook
The Obamanation
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 8,853
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #93 on: June 09, 2018, 11:50:38 PM »

According to the Supreme Court, no.
Logged
Mr. Morden
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 44,073
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #94 on: June 10, 2018, 12:21:36 PM »

I'm kind of a moderate hero on this question: If the Jewish baker refuses to bake the cake for a Nazi wedding, then he should be forced to instead bake a cake for a Nazi divorce.  He should be forced to affirm either Nazi happiness or sorrow.  Indifference is not allowed.
Logged
Yellowhammer
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 2,678
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #95 on: June 10, 2018, 02:55:58 PM »

A private business owner should have full discretion in regards of who they do business with, and should never be required to make a sale or perform a service for anyone they don't want to.

If a business owner wants to be bigoted and hateful towards customers of a certain category, it's unfortunate, but that's his/her choice. Their community of customers will probably boycott their business and pressure them into either a) changing course or b) closing their doors.
Obviously essential services such as pharmacies, hospitals, etc. must be required to serve everyone, but most other businesses should not.
Logged
courts
Ghost_white
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 6,466
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #96 on: June 10, 2018, 05:22:05 PM »

A private business owner should have full discretion in regards of who they do business with, and should never be required to make a sale or perform a service for anyone they don't want to.

If a business owner wants to be bigoted and hateful towards customers of a certain category, it's unfortunate, but that's his/her choice. Their community of customers will probably boycott their business and pressure them into either a) changing course or b) closing their doors.
Obviously essential services such as pharmacies, hospitals, etc. must be required to serve everyone, but most other businesses should not.

for lgbt people?i wish that was true.but we can't take it as a certainty yet.sad
Logged
7,052,770
Harry
Atlas Superstar
*****
Posts: 35,217
Ukraine


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #97 on: June 10, 2018, 07:37:43 PM »

A private business owner should have full discretion in regards of who they do business with, and should never be required to make a sale or perform a service for anyone they don't want to.

If a business owner wants to be bigoted and hateful towards customers of a certain category, it's unfortunate, but that's his/her choice. Their community of customers will probably boycott their business and pressure them into either a) changing course or b) closing their doors.
Obviously essential services such as pharmacies, hospitals, etc. must be required to serve everyone, but most other businesses should not.


If you're really from Alabama you know this isn't true for large swaths of America. In many rural/Southern areas, it's more likely that churches will start boycotting bakeries that do serve gays than any significant boycott of a bakery that refuses them.
Logged
MarkD
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 5,131
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #98 on: June 11, 2018, 02:57:25 PM »
« Edited: June 11, 2018, 03:27:02 PM by MarkD »

A private business owner should have full discretion in regards of who they do business with, and should never be required to make a sale or perform a service for anyone they don't want to.

If a business owner wants to be bigoted and hateful towards customers of a certain category, it's unfortunate, but that's his/her choice. Their community of customers will probably boycott their business and pressure them into either a) changing course or b) closing their doors.
Obviously essential services such as pharmacies, hospitals, etc. must be required to serve everyone, but most other businesses should not.


"Should have" that prerogative is a far-fetched wish. It is settled law that the federal government can make businesses like restaurants and hotels eliminate racial discrimination from their business practices.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katzenbach_v._McClung
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heart_of_Atlanta_Motel,_Inc._v._United_States
Logged
Yellowhammer
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 2,678
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #99 on: June 11, 2018, 10:41:52 PM »

A private business owner should have full discretion in regards of who they do business with, and should never be required to make a sale or perform a service for anyone they don't want to.

If a business owner wants to be bigoted and hateful towards customers of a certain category, it's unfortunate, but that's his/her choice. Their community of customers will probably boycott their business and pressure them into either a) changing course or b) closing their doors.
Obviously essential services such as pharmacies, hospitals, etc. must be required to serve everyone, but most other businesses should not.


If you're really from Alabama you know this isn't true for large swaths of America. In many rural/Southern areas, it's more likely that churches will start boycotting bakeries that do serve gays than any significant boycott of a bakery that refuses them.
Some people I'm sure would do so, but they would be a small minority almost everywhere.
Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5  
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Terms of Service - DMCA Agent and Policy - Privacy Policy and Cookies

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

Page created in 0.07 seconds with 14 queries.