charlie hebdo continues to be pure garbage, now without the "muh satire" charade

[Derpist]

I'm not sure what your point is, but the US being a nation of immigrants and embracing multiculturalism is one of the best things about it and one of the reasons I could see myself staying here for a long time.

It's actually one of the worst things about America for normal people. From the incredible crime rates to the total lack of civic society (which Robert Putnam described as a direct outcome of "diversity") to the total lack of social mobility (that comes from living in an affirmative society that primarily promotes the wealthiest, most elite members of random minority groups), this country sucks and I'd rather not live here. The elite classes enjoy all of the benefits of multiculturalism and the working-class pay all of the externalities.

The unfortunate part is that I'm an immigrant who's not Muslim, so the Western Europeans obviously didn't let us in.

[dead0man]

Enjoy the ride then.  Or are you planning on staying here now that you've seen how much better it is

I'm not sure what your point is, but the US being a nation of immigrants and embracing multiculturalism is one of the best things about it and one of the reasons I could see myself staying here for a long time.

It was just a joke, hence the winky face there.  It is true that America is awesome though.  Have you tried our sliced cheese?  It's to die for.


(that's a joke too)

[Antonio the Sixth]

The unfortunate part is that I'm an immigrant who's not Muslim, so the Western Europeans obviously didn't let us in.

Where are you from? Did you actually apply for immigration to any Western European country?

Anyway, the connection between multiculturalism and inequality is dubious at best. One of the reasons immigrants came to the US in the first place is because they had more opportunities to improve their living conditions there than almost anywhere else in the world. And even if there is a connection, it doesn't work quite the way you claim: it's mainly because parties like the one in your avatar exploit xenophobic fear and resentment as an excuse to enact policies that screw over the poor.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Enjoy the ride then.  Or are you planning on staying here now that you've seen how much better it is

I'm not sure what your point is, but the US being a nation of immigrants and embracing multiculturalism is one of the best things about it and one of the reasons I could see myself staying here for a long time.

It was just a joke, hence the winky face there.  It is true that America is awesome though.  Have you tried our sliced cheese?  It's to die for.


(that's a joke too)

That might as well have been serious: I'm addicted to cheese in all its forms.

[Famous Mortimer]

The unfortunate part is that I'm an immigrant who's not Muslim, so the Western Europeans obviously didn't let us in.

Where are you from? Did you actually apply for immigration to any Western European country?

Anyway, the connection between multiculturalism and inequality is dubious at best.

The connection between letting millions of poor people move to a rich country, and increasing inequality in that country is totally dubious.

[ingemann]

Denmark is one of those rare countries which do have statistics on immigrant groups and 1st generationof descendants.

So I'm going to share a few facts, which can remove or confirm a few myths here.

Criminality: Even if we look at the social economic situation of Muslim immigrants, theyy have a much higher criminality rate than the average. if we take all Muslim groups as a whole it's something like 160%, but that's an average with Turks and Bosniaks lying below and Moroccans, Somalians and "Lebanese" (Palestinians) lying above. Arabs in general have a very high criminality rate.
1st generation descendants have a higher rate than their parents.

All other non-Western immigrant groups except Yugoslavs (pre-war immigration) as a whole have a much lower criminality rate, with (Sri Lanka) Tamils having the highest at 125%, while Chinese, Indians and Vietnamese only having 50% criminality rate of the general population.

Fertility: The fertile rate of Muslim are in general low, Turks and Bosniaks lying below replacement rate (2,1), with Arabs and Pakistanians lying just above, the only exception are Somalians who have a birth rate at around 2,5, which mean they will double in size over the next 20 years, but their birth rate is also falling, following the pattern of the other groups.

Employment: Muslim immigrants have a horrible employment rate age with only 20-50% (of adults) depending on the group being in work. This is the one place descendents do significant better with their employment rate for most groups only being 16-25% lower than the average. The Palestinians are here the ugly exception with above 30% unemployment.


So as a summary, theyo gives a economic deficit even when comparing to other groups with a similar level of education (or even lower). They score low on all statisitcs, the only positive element are their relative low birth rate, through the worse they are as a groups the higher birth rate they have.

[Beezer]

It's offensive because it relies heavily on stereotypes and seems to imply that Muslims who are just serious about practicing their faith are somehow a problem.

Well, they kind of are, seeing as devout Muslims don't exactly think a secular state has any right to tell them how to live their lives.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Is anyone actually interested in arguing in this thread?

Why would anybody be interested in that discussion? We all know what the other side think and feel and we all know what we think about the other side (racists and halal hippies) . So why shouldn't we all just show the flag and continue on with our lives.

OK then. Guess I'm the only one left who's actually interested in figuring out how to build or preserve an authentically secular culture without scapegoating an entire group of people in the process.

There is no way to build a secular culture without calling out people who oppose secularism. People who are not secular are not scapegoats in this situation. "Scapegoat" implies they are not really to blame. People who are not secular are indeed the ones to blame for their own not being secular.

And you propose to fix this imagined problem and save democracy by curtailing the freedom to practice religions you don't practice?

[Antonio the Sixth]

It's offensive because it relies heavily on stereotypes and seems to imply that Muslims who are just serious about practicing their faith are somehow a problem.

Well, they kind of are, seeing as devout Muslims don't exactly think a secular state has any right to tell them how to live their lives.

A secular State isn't supposed to tell people how to practice religion in their personal lives.

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

Charlie Hebdo has lost most of its figureheads, which gave it its kinda 'historical tone', some other figureheads left, so what you have now kinda is just Charlie Hebdo '2.0'.

And that new one kinda became, you know, more 'touchy' about those issues, they kinda 'lived something'.

That aside, only from an intellectual point of view, yeah, the article is awkward, it points out something which is partly but less and less true, which was a kind of consensualist censorship about all those problems, which is anyways replaced by the other extremity, that is a bigger and bigger open hatred.

The switch had begun before Charlie attack in France anyways.

Ah, and, about secularism in France, there was nothing that really worked, otherwise there wouldn't be any problem.

Also, just little fact about immigration in this country, it already welcommed several big waves of 'millions of uneducated people' for at least 2 centuries. The immigrants were all deeply discriminated to say the least, but the descendents never had so many problems to be intgrated and are now seen as 'French', what's wrong with those 'most recent waves of immigration' that makes that the local population keeps discriminating the descendents, the descendents of the descendents, etc?

[Derpist]

Also, just little fact about immigration in this country, it already welcommed several big waves of 'millions of uneducated people' for at least 2 centuries. The immigrants were all deeply discriminated to say the least, but the descendents never had so many problems to be intgrated and are now seen as 'French', what's wrong with those 'most recent waves of immigration' that makes that the local population keeps discriminating the descendents, the descendents of the descendents, etc?

IIRC, the largest wave of "uneducated immigrants" to France were southern Italian in the 1950's and 1960's. Catholics speakers of a Romance language in a region that has been ruled by French monarchs for centuries.

They compare very favorably in ability to assimilate than the current wave of violent Muslim refugees.

[Famous Mortimer]

Why do we assume the failure of integration is entirely the fault of the host country?

[Maxwell]

Given the bitter tone of that editorial, you'd think that Charlie Hebdo had had its offices shot up by a couple of Muslims or something.

[Associate Justice PiT]

I'm not sure what your point is, but the US being a nation of immigrants and embracing multiculturalism is one of the best things about it and one of the reasons I could see myself staying here for a long time.

It's actually one of the worst things about America for normal people. From the incredible crime rates to the total lack of civic society (which Robert Putnam described as a direct outcome of "diversity") to the total lack of social mobility (that comes from living in an affirmative society that primarily promotes the wealthiest, most elite members of random minority groups), this country sucks and I'd rather not live here. The elite classes enjoy all of the benefits of multiculturalism and the working-class pay all of the externalities.

The unfortunate part is that I'm an immigrant who's not Muslim, so the Western Europeans obviously didn't let us in.

     Indeed, large-scale immigration is proving to be an albatross for American citizens to bear. Having muliculturalism per se isn't the problem, but rather not making basic demands for those who come to our country to accept the values that are fundamental to its society, or refusing to acknowledge and applaud the many good things that have come out of its society.

     The attacks on Charlie Hebdo are a fine example of a disturbing trend among elements of the left that have been referenced in this thread. Some SJWs have sought to deflect criticism of the Muslims who murdered the cartoonists through the use of sophistry. The fundamental point remains that those who resort to violent suppression in reaction to offensive speech have no place in this society. Not all Muslims are guilty of this by any means, but those who will do this sort of thing must not be allowed to cow our better part of man.

[NOT gonna be banned soon]

Is there any criticism of Islamic fundamentalism mild enough that Western liberals won't declare it racist? No? I didn't think so.