Progessive Caucus Convention

[Ebowed]

Do you guys recognize the problem with legal hardcore pornography while prostitution is illegal?

Yes.  I think that hardcore porn is wrong and dehumanizing but as long as there are no minors/animals involved I'd prefer to keep it legal.  I think prostitution is worse (and also easier to crack down on).

[minionofmidas]

You do realize that these people are paid money to , and are therefore, by any sane measure, engaged in prostitution? Mostly self-regulating, btw, but nonetheless well regulated.

[Ebowed]

Yes, I realize that.  I'm a libertarian on one issue, and on the other I'm not.  I don't focus on porn because a.) it's already legal and b.) I don't find it nearly disgusting as prostitution.

Also, there is a slight difference-- in prostitution, one person is paid, and in pornography, both are paid.

[minionofmidas]

Yes, I realize that.  I'm a libertarian on one issue, and on the other I'm not.  I don't focus on porn because a.) it's already legal and b.) I don't find it nearly disgusting as prostitution.

Also, there is a slight difference-- in prostitution, one person is paid, and in pornography, both are paid.

I don't see what difference that makes.

[Ebowed]

Yes, I realize that.  I'm a libertarian on one issue, and on the other I'm not.  I don't focus on porn because a.) it's already legal and b.) I don't find it nearly disgusting as prostitution.

Also, there is a slight difference-- in prostitution, one person is paid, and in pornography, both are paid.

I don't see what difference that makes.

The difference is that rather than one person selling their body for sexual exploitation, you have people doing it together. 

[minionofmidas]

Yes, I realize that.  I'm a libertarian on one issue, and on the other I'm not.  I don't focus on porn because a.) it's already legal and b.) I don't find it nearly disgusting as prostitution.

Also, there is a slight difference-- in prostitution, one person is paid, and in pornography, both are paid.

I don't see what difference that makes.

The difference is that rather than one person selling their body for sexual exploitation, you have people doing it together. 

And when a voyeur hires two people but doesn't film (or doesn't distribute the film), what's that then?

[Ebowed]

Yes, I realize that.  I'm a libertarian on one issue, and on the other I'm not.  I don't focus on porn because a.) it's already legal and b.) I don't find it nearly disgusting as prostitution.

Also, there is a slight difference-- in prostitution, one person is paid, and in pornography, both are paid.

I don't see what difference that makes.

The difference is that rather than one person selling their body for sexual exploitation, you have people doing it together. 

And when a voyeur hires two people but doesn't film (or doesn't distribute the film), what's that then?

Prostitution.  What point are you trying to make here Lewis?  I already told you, I don't support criminalizing porn, but I'm against legalizing prostitution.  A libertarian on one issue and not the other.

[MAS117]

The Voting Booth will be closed tonight at 6pm. If you haven't voted yet I urge you to vote. After that speechs will be given in a timely fashion, followed by votes on the caucus leadership and the board, and then finally the endorsements.

[minionofmidas]

Just that you're an inconsistent hack.

[Siege40]

Do you guys recognize the problem with legal hardcore pornography while prostitution is illegal?

Fair point... but admittedly, there's something different about watching someone have sex and paying someone for sex while they sound completely the same... are just different somehow. Can't explain it.

Siege

[minionofmidas]

To be frank there actually is a sort-of-valid (that is to say, I wouldn't sign it, but I can see it's logic) defence for your and Ebowed',s position...See if you can find it.
You're on the right track with that last comment actually.

[jokerman]

I find it rather disgusting that you guys want to legalize prostitution.

We finally agree on something! 

[Hatman 🍁]

Interesting argument. While this is probably just extremism, what if I like to kill people, shouldn't I be allowed to be an assassin? The answer is no, because killing is wrong, and so is selling your body for sex.

Siege

Um, murder harms a lot of people, prostitution should harm no one- that is it wouldn't if it were regulated and legalized. Comparing murder and prostitution is just about the silliest thing I've ever heard.

[Siege40]

Interesting argument. While this is probably just extremism, what if I like to kill people, shouldn't I be allowed to be an assassin? The answer is no, because killing is wrong, and so is selling your body for sex.

Siege

Um, murder harms a lot of people, prostitution should harm no one- that is it wouldn't if it were regulated and legalized. Comparing murder and prostitution is just about the silliest thing I've ever heard.

That's the difference between us, I think Prostitution is socially destructive. Sex, in my opinion is not meaningless animalistic behaviour but should have some sort of emotional connection, and by extension it should not be purchased. Prostitution makes people look at other human beings as commodities, objects, not people. I don't think it's all that rediculous to compare them, their both instincts that we should control because more damage is done then benefit when we act on these instincts. While we should be free to do as we want, but shouldn't there be certain limits? You can drink all you want legally, but you can't be drunk in public, similarly, we can have all the consensual sex you want, you just can't pay for it.

From what I understand the vote will end tonight, and so far those in favour of Prostitution legalization will win the vote.

Siege

[Hatman 🍁]

Interesting argument. While this is probably just extremism, what if I like to kill people, shouldn't I be allowed to be an assassin? The answer is no, because killing is wrong, and so is selling your body for sex.

Siege

Um, murder harms a lot of people, prostitution should harm no one- that is it wouldn't if it were regulated and legalized. Comparing murder and prostitution is just about the silliest thing I've ever heard.

That's the difference between us, I think Prostitution is socially destructive. Sex, in my opinion is not meaningless animalistic behaviour but should have some sort of emotional connection, and by extension it should not be purchased. Prostitution makes people look at other human beings as commodities, objects, not people. I don't think it's all that rediculous to compare them, their both instincts that we should control because more damage is done then benefit when we act on these instincts. While we should be free to do as we want, but shouldn't there be certain limits? You can drink all you want legally, but you can't be drunk in public, similarly, we can have all the consensual sex you want, you just can't pay for it.

From what I understand the vote will end tonight, and so far those in favour of Prostitution legalization will win the vote.

Siege

I feel the same way about, but you cannot govern morality in this way. Your alcohold analogy is another bad one. Sex is a natural instinct, drinking is not. Excessive drinking is dangerous, and offensive in public. I would not condone sex in public either.  What people do in their own homes in no business of the state providing there is consent.

And, you are forgetting the big picture. Whether you think it is moral or not is not the point. Prostitutes are human beings, and deserve the right to be protected by the government and not by their abusive pimps. We all know they are subject to a lot of crime. This can be prevented. Prostitution is the world's oldest profession and is not going to go away. So if you can't beat it, join it.

[The Dowager Mod]

If any of you could look at it from a womans perspective you might see it differently.
where do you think they come from?
81% never got a diploma
48% never held a different job
60% of the abuse against street prostitutes is perpetrated by clients, 20% by police and 20% in domestic relationships.
Between 35 and 85% of prostitutes are survivors of incest or early sexual abuse.
Up to 90% of prostitutes are under the control of a pimp .
Once in prostitution, women and girls are further victimized by pimps and customers.  In one study, 79% had been beaten by their pimps, 79% had been physically assaulted by their customers, and 50% has been raped by their customers.

Not that it will change any minds.

[Siege40]

With the Prostitution platform being passed I hereby resign my membership in the Progressive Caucus, thanks for the ride while it lasted.

Siege

[The Dowager Mod]

I cannot remain a member of the caucus for the same reason as Siege.

[Speed of Sound]

I too will have to resign on the grounds of a deep hatred for the death penalty.

[Emsworth]

I too will have to resign on the grounds of a deep hatred for the death penalty.

I believe that the Progressive Party's platform states: "The Progressive Caucus opposes the practice of the death penalty in all cases."

[Ebowed]

I too will have to resign on the grounds of a deep hatred for the death penalty.

I believe that the Progressive Party's platform states: "The Progressive Caucus opposes the practice of the death penalty in all cases."

Yes.  My anti-death penalty plank barely passed.

As someone who disagrees with the abortion and euthanasia planks, it would be a bit odd for me to resign my membership thanks to the newly passed prostitution plank, so I will stay in the  caucus for now.

[Hatman 🍁]

If any of you could look at it from a womans perspective you might see it differently.
where do you think they come from?
81% never got a diploma
48% never held a different job
60% of the abuse against street prostitutes is perpetrated by clients, 20% by police and 20% in domestic relationships.
Between 35 and 85% of prostitutes are survivors of incest or early sexual abuse.
Up to 90% of prostitutes are under the control of a pimp .
Once in prostitution, women and girls are further victimized by pimps and customers.  In one study, 79% had been beaten by their pimps, 79% had been physically assaulted by their customers, and 50% has been raped by their customers.

Not that it will change any minds.

I am looking at it from a woman's perspective! PROSTITUTION WILL ALWAYS EXIST. WE NEED TO REGULATE IT SO WOMEN DO NOT GET HARMED. By keeping it illegal you are causing more women harm than by making it legal. All of those stats you stated would be eliminated if prostitution were legal. You are basically stating why prostitution is bad, because it is illegal.               

[Frodo]

Platform

[/b]

Gay Marriage

The Progressive Caucus is happy with the status quo of Atlasia that has granted to gay couples the joys and benefits of marriage. We regard this as a great victory for equality in society and will oppose all attempts to damage the consensus that has been achieved on this issue.

Death Penalty

The Progressive Caucus condemns the practice of executing juvenile criminals as regressive. We oppose the practice of the death penalty in the majority of cases and would only support in cases of terrorism, treason and serial murder. We call for reform of the system that will require stricter standards of evidence and more capacity for Appeals courts to conduct actual innocence review in addition to the procedural reviews.

School Prayer

The Progressive Caucus supports the right of individual children to choose to pray in school and we support schools being able to provide facilities to allow students their free exercise rights during their free time. We do not think it is correct that classroom or organised time is used for school prayer.

Sex Education and Contraception in Schools

The Progressive Caucus believes that sex education in schools should be taught according to guidelines drawn by local communities, specifically including education on STDs and methods of contraception. We think that local communities should be able to include education on matters of homosexuality and abstinence at their own discretion, but we encourage it in both cases. Contraception should be made available to teenagers over the age of 16 confidentially in schools if the local community approves, but once again we encourage it.

Media Regulation

The Progressive Caucus opposes regulation of the media in all its forms as it is an attack on free speech and the free press. We will work to ensure that all media outlets are able to transmit without regard to state censorship, but with regard to what they feel their viewers and readers want.

Taxation

The Progressive Caucus supports the continuation of a fair, progressive system of taxation at the federal level of government.

Education

The Progressive Caucus supports the doctrine of educational funding and control expounded by Mideast Governor Bell: We support a system that places control over funding at the community level. We support ever increasing funding of education so that we can have truly the best educated citizens in the world for the benefit of the the future economy.

The Pledge of Allegiance

The Progressive Caucus feels that any citizen being required to invoke the existence of a God in order to pledge allegiance to the nation is a clear establishment of religion. We support the removal of the words "under God" from the Pledge.

Environment

The Progressive Caucus supports all measures to reduce the amount that industry pollutes the environment; We embrace the Clean Energy Act pioneered by District 2 Senator Siege40 as a good step forward. We urge all Regions to initiate programmes to protect the environment, develop clean technologies and to place higher environmental standards onto industry.

Pornography

The Progressive Caucus supports the right of teenagers of 16 years and over to buy and view pornography.

Assisted Suicide

The Progressive Caucus supports the right of the terminally ill to seek a death faster than would have otherwise occured through the assistance of doctors, and for persons to leave instructions to this effect for the event of their permenant incapacity.

Abortion

The Progressive Caucus supports the right of a mother to an abortion throughout the first trimester of the pregnancy and in the cases of a threat to the mother's health and foetal inviability throughout the pregnancy. We leave it to the conscience of individual members to decide their position in other cases.

So, when will this platform be changed to reflect the results of the convention vote we just had?

[Akno21]

You really shouldn't leave the caucus simply because you disagree on one issue. We aren't supposed to agree on everything, if all of us agreed on all 12 items in the platform, that would be pretty wierd, it shouldn't happen that we all agree on everything.

Also, by leaving, you really hurt the Progressive cause, which transcends the caucus. The caucus forum provides a place for members of all different left-leaning parties to come together and discuss general leftist strategy, since none of the parties actually run against each other, the Progressive Caucus in a sense can be the leftist party. If we don't have all the major leftists in it, it loses much of it's purpose.

[minionofmidas]

Sorry to have offended you, Texasgurl. You certainly haven`t offended me, never once have btw.
Oh, and to your post: What Earl said.