Your opinion of F. W. de Klerk

[Joe Republic]

We've had a discussion of peoples' opinions of Nelson Mandela and the ANC.  Now I was wondering what people thought of the last Apartheid leader.

[Richard]

Extremely negative.

[Joe Republic]

I had a feeling you'd say that.  But may I ask why?  Was it that he cowed to the ANC and international pressure, or that you simply supported the policies of Apartheid?

[Richard]

Anti death penalty
Pro abortion
Anti business
Pro big government
Revoked many civil rights

Want me to continue?

[Joe Republic]

Revoked many civil rights?  I would have thought the rights he reintroduced far outweighed the ones he revoked.

[Richard]

Revoked many civil rights?  I would have thought the rights he reintroduced far outweighed the ones he revoked.

He introduced civil rights??

[Joe Republic]

Um, yes.  I believe he ended Apartheid?

[TB]

My overall opinion of him is positive. He had the courage to end apartheid, and I have very much respect for the man because of that.

[Richard]

Um, yes.  I believe he ended Apartheid?

Yes, he seized the neighboring countries and integrated them.  Then he revoked the rights of people to associate in any way they choose.  He didn't introduce new civil rights...

[Joe Republic]

A question for you Richius:  Forgetting about Mandela and the ANC for a moment, did you support the Apartheid system itself?

[Richard]

A question for you Richius:  Forgetting about Mandela and the ANC for a moment, did you support the Apartheid system itself?

In an educated, first world society I would not support it.  In an illiterate, third-world society where cirme is common and wars between various tribes, it is a better alternative than throwing everyone together and hoping for a miracle to happen.

[minionofmidas]

The war has ended. Not that it would have ever occurred without Apartheid. of course, the political climate in KwaZulu/Natal remains poisoned. (And my relatives vote ANC as a result.)

[The Duke]

Positive.

[they don't love you like i love you]

Very Positive.

[they don't love you like i love you]

Um, yes.  I believe he ended Apartheid?

Yes, he seized the neighboring countries and integrated them.

what neighboring countries? Lesotho, Swaziland, Botswana, Namibia and Zimbabwe are all still around (although seizing Zimbabwe wouldn't be a bad idea)

[Bono]

Um, yes.  I believe he ended Apartheid?

Yes, he seized the neighboring countries and integrated them.

what neighboring countries? Lesotho, Swaziland, Botswana, Namibia and Zimbabwe are all still around (although seizing Zimbabwe wouldn't be a bad idea)

At the time Namibia was part of SA, actually.
He means the "homelands" that were "integrated" into SA when Mandela came to power.

[they don't love you like i love you]

Namibia got its independence in 1990.

Ha, Richius actually thinks those bantustans were real countries. I wonder what they did with all the US embassies to them once they were "seized". Oh wait, there never were any embassies. And where was all the international outcry of the invasion of these "sovereign nations" by SA?

[AuH2O]

Extremely negative. Should have hung years ago.

[Cashcow]

+

[Joe Republic]

Extremely negative. Should have hung years ago.

I also had a feeling you'd say something like that.  I'll ask you the same question I asked Richius.  Forgetting about Mandela and the ANC for a moment, did you support the Apartheid system itself?

[??????????]

Negative. But I don't really give a flip to be honest. North Africa is the only relevant part of that continent.

[Richard]

Um, yes.  I believe he ended Apartheid?

Yes, he seized the neighboring countries and integrated them.

what neighboring countries? Lesotho, Swaziland, Botswana, Namibia and Zimbabwe are all still around (although seizing Zimbabwe wouldn't be a bad idea)

Gee.  Your education has left you without much, eh?  I'm talking about Transkei, Ciskei, Bophuthatswana, Venda, and so on.

[Richard]

Namibia got its independence in 1990.

Ha, Richius actually thinks those bantustans were real countries.

Bantustans?  What are those?

You must be logged in to read this quote.

There is no American embassy in Taiwan.  Clearly, Taiwan is a fictious country.  You agree, of course?

[dazzleman]

Very interesting question, Joe Republic.

The answer is I'm not sure.  I would have to lean toward positive, more because of what DeKlerk didn't do, rather than anything he did.

He yielded power and gave up on apartheid without making a violent last stand that would have sacrificed many lives to a futile and wrong cause.

Of course, that doesn't mean the problem is solved.  South Africa today is a mess, and seems to be descending into the hell inhabited by most of its neighbors.  Whatever Mandela said, it seems that the politics of racial vengeance are taking over, as they did in Zimbabwe (and the American south after the civil war, with the races flipped).  The result will be misery and impoverishment for both races, just as it was in the American south for 100 years after the civil war.

Right now, South Africa is driving out the citizens who have the most to offer in terms of economic development.  Most of these citizens happen to be white, for a number of reasons that don't really matter at this point.  But to those effectively driving them out, the battles of the past matter more than the future.  Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one.  The jackasses are driving out the carpenters because they don't like how they treated them in the past, even though it means the jackasses will now have to live out in the cold.

This is just what happened in Zimbabwe, and while the government in South Africa is nowhere near as bad, rampant crime and vengeance killings are driving whites out of the South African countryside, toward Cape Town, and then out of the country completely, ultimately.

[Richard]

He yielded power and gave up on apartheid without making a violent last stand that would have sacrificed many lives to a futile and wrong cause.

No.  There was never any chance of war.  Never.  Not even the remotest.  South Africa didn't believe in disarming its people.  Every person was expected to be armed.  You can't take a country from people that are armed.