The Executive Branch (President, Vice President, etc.)

[Leinad]

I would support having the Vice President elected separately from the President and being permitted to hold a cabinet position, if he would like to, and if nominated by the President.

I will call a principle vote on the proposal in bold in 24 hours time if there are no objections.

That's a good idea. I'm undecided on the matter, myself, hopefully we can get some good debate going and both sides can make their case.

I think it would help make the position more relevant, but I'm not sure by how much, and it sounds like something that could have unintended consequences.

[Leinad]

As the old thread was basically four pages of Griffin and Windjammer arguing about who better understands the U.S. Constitution

That old thread had slipped my mind, and I read through it thinking your description was hyperbole.

It actually isn't.

Anyway, let me bring back to life an idea Windjammer had:

For the VP,

Make him a senator. People would vote for a P/VP ticket, and the VP would basically be a senator being the first on the line of succession (maybe with some "additional stuff"). For example, a senate being represented by 2 senators for each region (for example, 1 elected at large, the other by the legislature), the VP being the  7th senator.

Of course, he couldn't break the tie anymore.

I guess there might be problems with that now that we already had votes on the legislative branch, but it's still food for thought at the very least.

[Leinad]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

On 2a, I'm against term limits for most offices, although I see the wisdom of allowing a limit on consecutive Presidential terms. But I would prefer 3 (a year) over 2, as it is now.

[Leinad]

We should put some safeguard on the pardoning system, if not scrap it altogether. Letting the president pardon someone unilaterally is dangerous.

[Leinad]

1.  The President should have the ability to grant reprieves and pardon individuals of crimes past and present.

2.  The President should have the ability to introduce legislation into the queue of the Senate.

3.  The President should have the ability to appoint cabinet members, and to create cabinet-level offices as he/she sees fit.

4.  The President should have the ability to appoint individuals to the Supreme Court, subject to Senate approval.

Point 1, I agree with Leinad.

We should put some safeguard on the pardoning system, if not scrap it altogether. Letting the president pardon someone unilaterally is dangerous.

Point 2, Agreed.

Point 3, Do not agree.  This must be subject to debate in the Senate and to Senate confirmation.  On this issue, it is absolutely necessary to have a system of checks and balances in place.

Point 4, Agreed.

Point 1 could be safeguarded by having a Senate approval for it.

Indeed. I introduced that as an amendment in the Senate several months ago, but it was voted down because apparently it would dramatically reduce the President's role to require confirmation of pardons.

I just wish that more of us had a little bit of creativity and dreaming potential here. Notions such as "separation of powers" in a game is not a life or death situation. We are trying to create a new and fun environment, guys: everything doesn't have to be chained to the United States Constitution (and if it is, then *yawn*, it's just going to be more of the same). 

I get your point and kind of agree, but the pardon system in particular could have consequences. A rogue president is possible, and allowing said rogue president to unilaterally bring back people who were rightfully banned could have harsh consequences.


We should have a principle vote like this:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Okay, maybe 8 options is a bit pedantic. I've never claimed to not be. Truman can re-word this however he likes--it's more his wheelhouse than mine.

[Leinad]

OFFICIAL BALLOT
Principle Vote on Presidential Powers

The President shall have the power...

1.  To grant reprieves and pardon individuals of crimes past and present.
[   ] AYE    [   ] NAY    [ X ] Abstain

2.  To introduce legislation into the queue of the Senate.
[ X ] AYE    [   ] NAY    [   ] Abstain

3.  (Pick one)
      [   ] To appoint the cabinet
      [ X ] To appoint the cabinet with the advice and consent of the Senate
      [   ] NOTA

4. To appoint the justices of the Supreme Court with the advice and consent of the Senate
[ X ] AYE    [   ] NAY    [   ] Abstain

5. To establish executive departments as necessary
[   ] AYE    [   ] NAY    [ X ] Abstain

6. To veto acts of legislation passed by Congress
[ X ] AYE    [   ] NAY    [   ] Abstain

7. To exercise a line-item veto over the budget
[ X ] AYE    [   ] NAY    [   ] Abstain

8. To appoint the vice president in the event that the office falls vacant
[ X ] AYE    [   ] NAY    [   ] Abstain

9. To command the armed forces of the Republic of Atlasia
[ X ] AYE    [   ] NAY    [   ] Abstain

10. To make treaties with the advice and consent of the Senate
[ X ] AYE    [   ] NAY    [   ] Abstain


Thoughts:

1 - We need to reform the pardoning system. I'd like to see it restricted by the Senate/Congress, but if not I'd rather it go to the Congress than be a unilateral power of the President. So it's hard for me to say either Aye or Nay on this one.

5 - I'd like another option: to establish executive departments as necessary with the advice and consent of the Senate.

[Leinad]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I can change the wording, the number (i.e. it could be three-fourths, simple majority, or whatever--but I think two thirds is the sweet spot), or what houses (i.e. it could be just the Senate if you want). But the point is that it needs to have some Senate oversight.

To any skeptics who use this line of attack, this will NOT rob the Presidency of relevance. Why would I want to hurt the office of the Presidency, guys? It's simply a break-glass-if-needed measure.

Here's the thread we had six months ago when I first introduced an amendment like this: https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=217360.0

It should be a good resource to get the key talking points out of the way, although I hope we'll come to a different conclusion.

I'll just repost the key nugget of the debate:

With such a large majority required it would only be used when the president is ineffective (inactive, going crazy, etc). I approve of this restraint on the executive.

[Leinad]

Delegates have 24 hours to object to Leinad's amendment.

24 hours from when I introduced it to when you announced the start of the 24 hours?

[Leinad]

AYE!

[Leinad]

Nay on Unilateral creation of cabinet positions.

I'm also against that, but I remembered that the President still needs congressional approval to appoint someone. So while they can create cabinet positions unilaterally until the cows come home, it means nothing if their attempts to fill said positions get blocked.