The Executive Branch (President, Vice President, etc.)

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

Hear ye! Hear ye! Having seen the adoption of the Articles addressing the Regions and the federal Congress, this Convention will now turn its attention to the Executive branch of the national government. As the old thread was basically four pages of Griffin and Windjammer arguing about who better understands the U.S. Constitution, I have decided to move debate here; this will make it easier to keep track of relevant proposals and information and will allow me to edit the title of this thread to announce votes and other procedural matters.

I would remind the delegates that, by a previous principle vote, this Convention has determined to preserve the position of Vice President. This, to the best of my knowledge, is the only significant decision made in the previous thread.

I now open the floor for debate.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

I think that we should allow certain members of the executive branch to sit in Congress or in the Regional Legislatures. Probably the only roles that wouldn't be allowed to would be the President, Vice President and the Game Moderator.

I think this will make these roles easier to fill and reduce the amount of positions within the game.

Not a bad idea, though I think this would be best addressed when we discuss simultaneous officeholding later in the Convention.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

I would support having the Vice President elected separately from the President and being permitted to hold a cabinet position, if he would like to, and if nominated by the President.

I will call a principle vote on the proposal in bold in 24 hours time if there are no objections.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

I would remind everyone that the recently passed Congressional Article tasks the vice president with coordinating the two Houses of Congress; I don't think that's compatible with making him a member of one of those houses.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

Seeing no objection, I herby call a principle vote on the question of vice presidential elections. Voting will last 48 hours or until all delegates have voted.

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[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

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I oppose this proposal for two reasons: first, the duties vested in the vice presidency are not great enough to merit a separate election; second, in the event that the president should be forced to vacate his office, it is best for his successor to come from within his Administration (so as to ensure that the mandate issued by the people in the last presidential election is upheld). By electing the vice president together with the president, we ensure that the vice president is also a recipient of that mandate, and therefore more likely to carry on the policies begun by his predecessor than if he were elected separately.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

By a vote of 3 Ayes, 13 Nays, one Abstention, and with six delegates not voting, this question has FAILED.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

In fact, the Convention has already addressed this matter:

ARTICLE [TBD]

Section 1 (The Legislature)
i. All legislative powers herein granted shall be vested in the Congress of the Republic of Atlasia, which shall consist of a Senate and a House of Representatives.
ii. The Vice President shall be the President of the Congress, but shall have no vote in the House of Representatives, nor in the Senate save when they be equally divided.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

Then I would say that the next item should be the discussion as to whether or not the Vice President can hold an additional cabinet position (or elected position, for that matter), unless it's believed superior to discuss this as part of broader package on simultaneous officeholding later. I can see merits in explicitly outlining this in the executive branch of the document, as well as merely covering it as part of cabinet positions and dual officeholding.

I think it would be best to address this when we address the issue of simultaneous officeholding: that way, the rules are all in one place rather than scattered throughout the document.

As that's already been settled, is there any other responsibilities that could be designated to the VP? I feel that the VP should have more power than just breaking ties in Congress, but I'm not really sure what powers could be given to the VP.

The Congressional Article gives the VP the additional duty of serving as "President of the Congress" (ie: coordinating the Senate and the HoR). Assuming we allow the VP to serve as part of the cabinet, this would make the office significantly more consequential than it is currently.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

Are we in agreement that the presidential term should last four months (as it does now)? If so, we will begin debate on the powers to be held by the executive.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

I agree with Griffin - especially considering how hard it has been to find keep the government fully staffed of late, I don't see the rationale of barring people from running for office if they have the desire and support to do so. Of the last six presidents (not counting Tyrion), barely 50% have chosen to seek reelection, so I doubt that the prospect of an "eternal president" is much of a threat.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

Very well, we will now begin a principle vote on the length of presidential terms and the question of term limits. Delegates should rank the following options in order of preference. Voting will last 48 hours or until all delegates have voted.

NOTE on Question 2: As Griffin/Clyde's proposal did not state whether we were voting on a lifetime term limit (as exists in the real life US) or a limit on consecutive terms only (as exists in Atlasia today), I have broken Question 2 into two parts. In Question 2a, you are given three choices: the first option would place a lifetime term limit on the presidency (i.e. two terms and then you're done forever); the second option would place a limit on consecutive terms (i.e. after you've served two terms, you have to wait one term before you can run again); the third option would eliminate term limits entirely. In Question 2b, you are being asked to pick the maximum number of terms a person should be able to serve as president in the event that a term limit is set. You should vote on Question 2b EVEN IF you voted "No" on Question 2a. Obviously, if a majority votes "No" on 2a, the results of 2b will be discarded.

I apologize if this was already obvious, but considering the confusion that has surrounded past principle votes, I wanted to be extra careful.

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[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

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[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

RESULTS - Question 1: How long should each presidential term last?
Four Months (14)
Two Months (1)

RESULTS - Question 2a: Should there be a limit on the number of terms a person may serve as president?
No (10)
Yes, but... (4)
Yes (1)

Question 2a having been resolved in the negative, the results of the vote on Question 2b are discarded.


So there you have it, folks: the new Constitution will provide for a four month presidential term, renewable indefinitely. Tomorrow, we will begin debate on the powers to be vested in this office.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

We will now begin debating the powers of the executive branch. Delegates have 72 hours to propose any and all powers they feel should be held by the president. Once the 72 hours are up, I will call a principle vote on the matter; those powers that are approved by a majority of the voting delegates will be included in the final draft of the Constitution. (For an example of how this will work, see the previous debate on Congressional powers.)

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

I would note that, per the previous vote on Congressional powers, all presidential nominations for the cabinet/Supreme Court are subject to Congressional approval. I agree that the president should have control over the structure of the cabinet.

• To establish such executive departments as may be necessary
• To appoint the cabinet with the advice and consent of the Senate
• To appoint the justices of the Supreme Court with the advice and consent of the Senate
• To veto acts of legislation passed by Congress
• To exercise a line-item veto over the budget
• To issue pardons for crimes committed under federal law; but the President may not pardon himself nor overturn the result of a trial of impeachment
• To appoint the vice president in the event that the office falls vacant
• To command the armed forces of the Republic of Atlasia
• To make treaties with the advise and consent of the Senate

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

I think it would be more efficient to have a simple up-or-down vote on the pardoning power, and then consider additional restrictions afterwards (much as we did with the secession issue, minus the weeks of dithering over identical amendments). I have my own thoughts on the advisability (or lack thereof) of weakening executive authority, but I'll save that until after the vote.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

We will now begin a principle vote on the powers of the presidency. Please vote AYE, NAY, or Abstain on each of the following ten (10) questions (except #3, where you are asked to choose between two options). Voting will last 48 hours or until all delegates have voted.

NOTE: Several delegates have expressed support for restricting the president's ability to issue pardons. Because this is a complicated issue not really suited for a principle vote (which is designed primarily for 'yes or no' questions), I have decided to kick the can down the road until after the current vote. As a result, Question 1 on the below ballot only asks whether you think the president should be able to issue pardons. If your answer to Question 1 is "Yes, but [insert restriction here], you should still vote AYE on Question 1 - we will discuss possible restrictions at a later date.

OFFICIAL BALLOT
Principle Vote on Presidential Powers

The President shall have the power...

1.  To grant reprieves and pardon individuals of crimes past and present.*
[   ] AYE    [   ] NAY    [   ] Abstain

*NOTE: We will discuss possible restrictions on this power at a later date.

2.  To introduce legislation into the queue of the Senate.
[   ] AYE    [   ] NAY    [   ] Abstain

3.  (Pick one)
      [   ] To appoint the cabinet
      [   ] To appoint the cabinet with the advice and consent of the Senate
      [   ] NOTA

4. To appoint the justices of the Supreme Court with the advice and consent of the Senate
[   ] AYE    [   ] NAY    [   ] Abstain

5. To establish executive departments as necessary
[   ] AYE    [   ] NAY    [   ] Abstain

6. To veto acts of legislation passed by Congress
[   ] AYE    [   ] NAY    [   ] Abstain

7. To exercise a line-item veto over the budget
[   ] AYE    [   ] NAY    [   ] Abstain

8. To appoint the vice president in the event that the office falls vacant
[   ] AYE    [   ] NAY    [   ] Abstain

9. To command the armed forces of the Republic of Atlasia
[   ] AYE    [   ] NAY    [   ] Abstain

10. To make treaties with the advise and consent of the Senate
[   ] AYE    [   ] NAY    [   ] Abstain

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

OFFICIAL BALLOT
Principle Vote on Presidential Powers

The President shall have the power...

1.  To grant reprieves and pardon individuals of crimes past and present.*
[ X ] AYE    [   ] NAY    [   ] Abstain

*NOTE: We will discuss possible restrictions on this power at a later date.

2.  To introduce legislation into the queue of the Senate.
[ X ] AYE    [   ] NAY    [   ] Abstain

3.  (Pick one)
      [ X ] To appoint the cabinet
      [   ] To appoint the cabinet with the advice and consent of the Senate
      [   ] NOTA

4. To appoint the justices of the Supreme Court with the advice and consent of the Senate
[ X ] AYE    [   ] NAY    [   ] Abstain

5. To establish executive departments as necessary
[ X ] AYE    [   ] NAY    [   ] Abstain

6. To veto acts of legislation passed by Congress
[ X ] AYE    [   ] NAY    [   ] Abstain

7. To exercise a line-item veto over the budget
[ X ] AYE    [   ] NAY    [   ] Abstain

8. To appoint the vice president in the event that the office falls vacant
[ X ] AYE    [   ] NAY    [   ] Abstain

9. To command the armed forces of the Republic of Atlasia
[ X ] AYE    [   ] NAY    [   ] Abstain

10. To make treaties with the advise and consent of the Senate
[ X ] AYE    [   ] NAY    [   ] Abstain

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

RESULTS
Principle Vote on Presidential Powers

The President shall have the power...

1.  To grant reprieves and pardon individuals of crimes past and present.
PASSED (16 Ayes, 0 Nays, 2 Abstentions)

2.  To introduce legislation into the queue of the Senate.
PASSED (14 Ayes, 4 Nays, 0 Abstentions)

3.  (Pick one)
     To appoint the cabinet (5)
      To appoint the cabinet with the advice and consent of the Senate (13) PASSED
      NOTA (0)

4. To appoint the justices of the Supreme Court with the advice and consent of the Senate
PASSED (18 Ayes, 0 Nays, 0 Abstentions)

5. To establish executive departments as necessary
PASSED (12 Ayes, 4 Nays, 2 Abstentions)

6. To veto acts of legislation passed by Congress
PASSED (18 Ayes, 0 Nays, 0 Abstentions)

7. To exercise a line-item veto over the budget
PASSED (15 Ayes, 3 Nays, 0 Abstentions)

8. To appoint the vice president in the event that the office falls vacant
PASSED (18 Ayes, 0 Nays, 0 Abstentions)

9. To command the armed forces of the Republic of Atlasia
PASSED (18 Ayes, 0 Nays, 0 Abstentions)

10. To make treaties with the advise and consent of the Senate
PASSED (18 Ayes, 0 Nays, 0 Abstentions)

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

I offer the following amendment:

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Delegates have 24 hours to object to Truman's amendment. HOWEVER, because it will be much easier to adopt this amendment and then make changes as necessary that it would be to reject this text and then start again from scratch, I respectfully ask that you refrain from objecting to this amendment. This is by no means a final text nor is it intended to settle every question before us: rather, my objective was to incorporate the changes made by the last several principle votes and to carry over those provisions of the current Constitution relating to the absence or removal of the President (Section 3).

Once/if this amendment has been adopted, we will proceed with a debate on the pardoning power.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

I'm surprised everything passed. Glad to see it!

Yeah, I expected Qs 2, 5, and 7 to fail. This is certainly a pleasant surprise.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

Seeing no objection, Truman's amendment has been adopted.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

Time for amendments! The current text of this Article can be found here; it is the responsibility of every delegate to read through this text and decide what (if any) changes need to be made before we move to a final vote. Prior to the last principle vote, some delegates have proposed placing restraints on the pardoning power: if y'all still think that's a good idea, now is the time to come forward.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

Delegates have 24 hours to object to Leinad's amendment.

For reference, the new Congress will consist of a 6-member Senate and a 9-member House, so a 2/3 would require the assent of 4 senators and 6 representatives.