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  Talk Elections
  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion
  U.S. Presidential Election Results (Moderators: Torie, ON Progressive)
  When did the parties switch platforms?
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Author Topic: When did the parties switch platforms?  (Read 18685 times)
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tara gilesbie
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« Reply #25 on: January 09, 2016, 06:07:01 pm »


Four of these states swung toward Wallace, one for Nixon, zero for Humphrey. All voted for Nixon in 1972. Carter is the only post-CRA Democrat to win any of these voters back, and even then not incredibly.
Clinton won Louisiana in 1992 and 1996. Georgia also went to Clinton in 1992 and was close in 1996 although Dole won it.

Yes, but only because of black support. Granted, a good chunk of whites in these states clearly voted for Clinton, but the vast of white Southerners voted Republican after 1964 except for Wallace and too a lesser extent Carter.
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RINO Tom
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« Reply #26 on: January 12, 2016, 01:02:41 pm »
« Edited: January 12, 2016, 01:05:09 pm by RINO Tom »


Four of these states swung toward Wallace, one for Nixon, zero for Humphrey. All voted for Nixon in 1972. Carter is the only post-CRA Democrat to win any of these voters back, and even then not incredibly.
Clinton won Louisiana in 1992 and 1996. Georgia also went to Clinton in 1992 and was close in 1996 although Dole won it.

Yes, but only because of black support. Granted, a good chunk of whites in these states clearly voted for Clinton, but the vast of white Southerners voted Republican after 1964 except for Wallace and too a lesser extent Carter.

In 1976, Carter won 46% of the "White South" (compared to Ford's 52%).  Considering that Carter won every Southern state except for Virginia (one of the bigger Southern states) and barely won Texas and Florida (two other big Southern states with a lot of Northern transplants at the time), I think it's perfectly reasonable to say that Southern Whites in the Deep South most certainly voted for Carter, especially when you look at his victory margins and how many people voted in each state (I rounded the numbers in the parentheses but used the exact numbers, available on Wikipedia, for the calculations):

JIMMY CARTER SOUTHERN MARGINS

BORDER SOUTH
VA: +1.34% Ford (1.70 million total)
OK: +1.21% Ford (1.09 million total)
TX: +3.17% Carter (4.07 million total)
FL: +5.28% Carter (3.15 million total)
KY: +7.19% Carter (1.17 million total)
NC: +11.05% Carter (1.68 million total)
TN: +13.00% Carter (1.48 million total)
WV: +16.04% Carter (750,000 total)

That'd put Carter at winning just over 52% of the votes in the Border South.

DEEP SOUTH
MS: +1.88% Carter (769,000 total)
LA: +5.78% Carter (1.28 million total)
SC: +13.04% Carter (802,000 total)
AL: +13.11% Carter (1.18 million total)
AR: +30.01% Carter (769,000 total)
GA: +33.78% Carter (1.47 million total)

That'd put Carter at winning almost 58% of the vote in the Deep South ... I don't think you do that in the 1970s without winning the White vote, or at least coming damn close considering the turnout disparity that still existed between Whites and Blacks in that decade.  Carter did significantly better in the Deep South than in the Border South, and given that the biggest Deep South state gave him over 65% of the vote and that four gave him over 55% of the vote, I think it's safe to say Carter did just fine among Deep South Whites, 12 years after the Civil Rights Act was signed.

All the CRA did was OPEN UP politics in the South; White Southerners now had to choose between two parties that - at least outwardly - supported civil rights.  Both parties (despite popular misconception) continued to make overtures toward racist Whites in the South for years after the Civil Rights Act, and Republicans started to do better as the South became less agrarian (notice how Carter still won the rural, White counties in 1980 yet managed to lose most Southern states to Reagan, thanks to GOP inroads in the growing suburbs...).  It wasn't this magical moment when all these old racist Southern Democrats were like, "I think I'll be a Republican now, even though their party voted more in favor of this than anyone else!"  That's as ridiculous as union voters becoming Republicans because of Obama's support for the TPP.
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Kingpoleon
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« Reply #27 on: January 12, 2016, 01:12:44 pm »

Never. As for Wallace voters, the only two I ever knew were Democratic until 2004 and too senile to vote after that.
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RINO Tom
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« Reply #28 on: January 12, 2016, 01:16:18 pm »

Never. As for Wallace voters, the only two I ever knew were Democratic until 2004 and too senile to vote after that.

Despite what this forum would like to hear, that is probably how most "old school Dixiecrats" probably voted ... what is so appealing to them about a Connecticut, WASPy, dynasty family member of the Party of Lincoln who's clearly pretending to be a cowboy?  LOL.  These folks almost certainly voted for Clinton, and given they were probably already in their 60s by the time Reagan was running, I doubt they voted for the California Republican either.

Now I will say, if any true Dixiecrats were still alive, I bet they would have crossed party lines for the first time in order to prevent a Black man from being elected ... but most are dead.
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Wolverine22
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« Reply #29 on: January 12, 2016, 04:49:51 pm »

Never.  Their platforms may have changed some over the years, but the switch wasn't as radical as liberals like to pretend it was.  That's just an excuse they make to keep repeating the lie that the racist Democrats joined the GOP after Johnson signed the Civil Rights Act.

That's not a lie at all. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 set in motion the South's turn from D to R, hence why Barry Goldwater won 4 states that would have been easily for Johnson in any other circumstance. They fell in love with Reagan and the GOP in 1980 because of his dog whistle racism, and have voted Republican ever since. Since 1976, the Republicans have run further and further to the right, embracing racism more and more with each passing election.
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Wolverine22
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« Reply #30 on: January 12, 2016, 05:02:51 pm »

Never. As for Wallace voters, the only two I ever knew were Democratic until 2004 and too senile to vote after that.

Despite what this forum would like to hear, that is probably how most "old school Dixiecrats" probably voted ... what is so appealing to them about a Connecticut, WASPy, dynasty family member of the Party of Lincoln who's clearly pretending to be a cowboy?  LOL.  These folks almost certainly voted for Clinton, and given they were probably already in their 60s by the time Reagan was running, I doubt they voted for the California Republican either.

Now I will say, if any true Dixiecrats were still alive, I bet they would have crossed party lines for the first time in order to prevent a Black man from being elected ... but most are dead.

Storm Thurmond? Richard Shelby? Fob James? Zell Miller? Buddy Roemer? The biggest racist ever to serve in the Senate, Jesse Helms? How about Trent Lott, Mills Godwin, Nathan Deal, and Sonny Perdue?
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RINO Tom
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« Reply #31 on: January 12, 2016, 05:56:09 pm »

Never. As for Wallace voters, the only two I ever knew were Democratic until 2004 and too senile to vote after that.

Despite what this forum would like to hear, that is probably how most "old school Dixiecrats" probably voted ... what is so appealing to them about a Connecticut, WASPy, dynasty family member of the Party of Lincoln who's clearly pretending to be a cowboy?  LOL.  These folks almost certainly voted for Clinton, and given they were probably already in their 60s by the time Reagan was running, I doubt they voted for the California Republican either.

Now I will say, if any true Dixiecrats were still alive, I bet they would have crossed party lines for the first time in order to prevent a Black man from being elected ... but most are dead.

Storm Thurmond? Richard Shelby? Fob James? Zell Miller? Buddy Roemer? The biggest racist ever to serve in the Senate, Jesse Helms? How about Trent Lott, Mills Godwin, Nathan Deal, and Sonny Perdue?

Strom Thurmond was ONE of 21 Senate Democrats who switched parties in 1964.  The rest were just fine remaining Democrats.  Again, what would their incentive be to join the party that supported it at an even higher rate, even if that party nominated ONE candidate ONE time that opposed that ONE civil rights law (and had a flawless civil rights record before that)?

Richard Shelby was a Democrat until 1994 ... do you think it took him 30 years to realize that the CRA had been passed?

James also became a Republican in 1994.  It is intellectually dishonest for you to act like the Civil Rights Act caused that.  I know you're not that dumb or that much of a hack.

Zell Miller IS STILL A DEMOCRAT, lol.  He endorsed Michelle Nunn just this past year!  Come on, dude.

Buddy Roemer became a Republican in 1991 ... a full three years earlier than those other two.  Conclusion: obviously the Civil Rights Act signed in the 1960s.

Jesse Helms became a Republican in 1970, 6 years after the CRA was signed.  As for him being the most racist, I think that's highly debatable.  Helms introduced legislation that would take away tax-free status to colleges in North Carolina that discriminated based on race.  He hired James Meredith (ya know, the first Black student to ever attend Ole Miss?) on his staff, for God's sake.  If Democrats like Al Gore, Sr. and Robert Byrd are going to get total passes for saying "I'm sorry, I was wrong" (let's forget for a second that Byrd remained a racist sack of sh^t well into his senile term as leader of the Congressional Democrats, a post he held into Obama's Presidency...), then you should extend the same forgiveness to Republicans.

Trent Lott became a Democrat until 1972.  It took this genius 8 whole years to figure out that Democrats were now a party totally committed to racial equality and Republicans had completely absorbed racism?  What a moron.

Godwin became one in 1973.  Yet another one who didn't question their party allegiance after the signing of the CRA.

Deal became a Republican in 1995.  I've noticed a lot clearer trend of a shift to the cultural left in the '80s for the Democrats alienating a lot of Southerners, much more so than civil rights.

Perdue didn't ditch the Democrats until 1998.  Only a moron would tie that to civil rights or dog whistle politics.

Look, as I've said many times before, the Civil Rights Act opened up politics in the South (just as Martin Luther King predicted it would), but it didn't usher the region toward the GOP.  It did temporarily in 1964, but that was clearly an anomaly.  A party whose Senators and Representatives supported the law overwhelmingly let an opponent of the law win a very divided field.  So what?  They ran right back to a Democrat in Wallace (yes, he ran as an independent, but he went right back to the Dems and was unapologetic in his liberal fiscal views during the campaign) in 1968, sure they voted for Nixon in 1972 but so did every other state and they all came right back home to the Peanut Farmer in 1976.  Looking at the county maps, your rural, poor, White Southern counties STILL voted against Reagan in 1980; his strength came from the suburbs.  That is a fact.

The CRA caused Democrats to lose their stranglehold on Dixie; it by no means delivered it to the GOP.  The GOP had to 1) convince the South that its ECONOMIC interests actually lay with the Republicans and 2) wait for several "Dixiecrats" to die off.  Sorry if that gets in the way of your justification for why everyone who ever did anything good politically was a liberal and therefore the legacy of modern liberal Democrats can only then logically be a noble one, but history is a lot more complicated than "the parties switched" (seriously, I can see how a dumb^ss third grader can believe that, but people posting on this site with a wealth of data and knowledge at their disposal??).  Even on civil rights.
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Hillary pays minimum wage
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« Reply #32 on: January 14, 2016, 12:59:38 am »

More important than numbers and data is reasons. Some Republican states have always been that way or at least go further back than you think. KS NE SD ND for example. As time goes on the issues change and the parties are forced to take stands on them based on what already appeals to their base. Time is to thank for the change. RI MA were Democrat just prior to the depression. The parties are half similar when compared to 50 years ago too if you look at the maps.
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hopper
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« Reply #33 on: January 17, 2016, 02:38:27 am »

Never.  Their platforms may have changed some over the years, but the switch wasn't as radical as liberals like to pretend it was.  That's just an excuse they make to keep repeating the lie that the racist Democrats joined the GOP after Johnson signed the Civil Rights Act.

That's not a lie at all. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 set in motion the South's turn from D to R, hence why Barry Goldwater won 4 states that would have been easily for Johnson in any other circumstance. They fell in love with Reagan and the GOP in 1980 because of his dog whistle racism, and have voted Republican ever since. Since 1976, the Republicans have run further and further to the right, embracing racism more and more with each passing election.
Further and Further to the right? I don't think Trump is really that conservative. "The Club For Growth" for example hates Trump because only Bernie Sanders is more fiscally liberal than Trump out of all the Presidential Candidates running currently. You think George W. Bush, McCain, Bob Dole, and Romney were racists? You think all white people voted for Reagan because of dog whistle racism?
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Hillary pays minimum wage
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« Reply #34 on: January 17, 2016, 05:00:54 am »

Never. As for Wallace voters, the only two I ever knew were Democratic until 2004 and too senile to vote after that.

Despite what this forum would like to hear, that is probably how most "old school Dixiecrats" probably voted ... what is so appealing to them about a Connecticut, WASPy, dynasty family member of the Party of Lincoln who's clearly pretending to be a cowboy?  LOL.  These folks almost certainly voted for Clinton, and given they were probably already in their 60s by the time Reagan was running, I doubt they voted for the California Republican either.

Now I will say, if any true Dixiecrats were still alive, I bet they would have crossed party lines for the first time in order to prevent a Black man from being elected ... but most are dead.

Storm Thurmond? Richard Shelby? Fob James? Zell Miller? Buddy Roemer? The biggest racist ever to serve in the Senate, Jesse Helms? How about Trent Lott, Mills Godwin, Nathan Deal, and Sonny Perdue?

You're also the party of Strom Thurmond and mind you Robert Byrd.  Jesse Helms I believe was a Democrat.  You listen to the left and this is what happens.
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Virginiá
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« Reply #35 on: January 17, 2016, 12:23:37 pm »

You're also the party of Strom Thurmond and mind you Robert Byrd.  Jesse Helms I believe was a Democrat.  You listen to the left and this is what happens.

We can't deny that those people were Democrats (even if Strom switched long before he died). Robert Byrd appeared to turn over a new leaf quite some time before he died as well. Obviously I didn't know him personally, but he was definitely not acting racist, or saying racist things, or pushing racist policies for a long time before he died in 2010.

However, now these types of people are Republicans and have been for years, at least in most elections. There are racist northerners but there are quite a lot of racists from the South and will continue to be until the older generation is thoroughly replaced, and even then. It's not that the Republican party in itself has these racist overtones, it's their base of support (the South). Any party that represents these people will end up giving off that image until things change - And as I said, to varying degrees, they are changing.
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Hillary pays minimum wage
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« Reply #36 on: January 17, 2016, 04:25:43 pm »

You're also the party of Strom Thurmond and mind you Robert Byrd.  Jesse Helms I believe was a Democrat.  You listen to the left and this is what happens.

We can't deny that those people were Democrats (even if Strom switched long before he died). Robert Byrd appeared to turn over a new leaf quite some time before he died as well. Obviously I didn't know him personally, but he was definitely not acting racist, or saying racist things, or pushing racist policies for a long time before he died in 2010.

However, now these types of people are Republicans and have been for years, at least in most elections. There are racist northerners but there are quite a lot of racists from the South and will continue to be until the older generation is thoroughly replaced, and even then. It's not that the Republican party in itself has these racist overtones, it's their base of support (the South). Any party that represents these people will end up giving off that image until things change - And as I said, to varying degrees, they are changing.

I have two posting styles.  One is for those who know what's going on and one for talking heads of the far left.  Hopefully, when I reply to you, I'm much more respectful and polite.  You have a deep knowledge of government and history.  My party has had their share of rotten eggs too.  It's just not always as dramatic as some make it out to be.

Looking at 1964 and 1980 we see pivotal points in the electorate.
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hopper
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« Reply #37 on: January 17, 2016, 05:07:42 pm »

You're also the party of Strom Thurmond and mind you Robert Byrd.  Jesse Helms I believe was a Democrat.  You listen to the left and this is what happens.

We can't deny that those people were Democrats (even if Strom switched long before he died). Robert Byrd appeared to turn over a new leaf quite some time before he died as well. Obviously I didn't know him personally, but he was definitely not acting racist, or saying racist things, or pushing racist policies for a long time before he died in 2010.

However, now these types of people are Republicans and have been for years, at least in most elections. There are racist northerners but there are quite a lot of racists from the South and will continue to be until the older generation is thoroughly replaced, and even then. It's not that the Republican party in itself has these racist overtones, it's their base of support (the South). Any party that represents these people will end up giving off that image until things change - And as I said, to varying degrees, they are changing.
Yeah I think Byrd gave up his racist plank in the early 1980's.
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Rockefeller GOP
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« Reply #38 on: January 17, 2016, 07:55:29 pm »

You're also the party of Strom Thurmond and mind you Robert Byrd.  Jesse Helms I believe was a Democrat.  You listen to the left and this is what happens.

We can't deny that those people were Democrats (even if Strom switched long before he died). Robert Byrd appeared to turn over a new leaf quite some time before he died as well. Obviously I didn't know him personally, but he was definitely not acting racist, or saying racist things, or pushing racist policies for a long time before he died in 2010.

However, now these types of people are Republicans and have been for years, at least in most elections. There are racist northerners but there are quite a lot of racists from the South and will continue to be until the older generation is thoroughly replaced, and even then. It's not that the Republican party in itself has these racist overtones, it's their base of support (the South). Any party that represents these people will end up giving off that image until things change - And as I said, to varying degrees, they are changing.
Yeah I think Byrd gave up his racist plank in the early 1980's.

So did Thurmond and Helms, but they don't get a pass from Democrats.
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darthebearnc
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« Reply #39 on: January 17, 2016, 08:18:40 pm »

lmao "the parties never switched platforms"
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Hillary pays minimum wage
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« Reply #40 on: January 17, 2016, 08:20:11 pm »

lmao "the parties never switched platforms"

Go on?
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darthebearnc
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« Reply #41 on: January 17, 2016, 08:48:50 pm »




Red - States that voted majority R before 1964 and majority D since 1964
Blue - States that voted majority D before 1964 and majority R since 1964
Green - States that voted majority R both before and after 1964
Orange - States that voted majority D both before and after 1964
Yellow - States that voted for both parties equally before 1964 and majority R since 1964

This seems to imply (correctly) that either the parties or the states switched platforms sometime around 1964.
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Hillary pays minimum wage
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« Reply #42 on: January 17, 2016, 08:52:45 pm »




Red - States that voted majority R before 1964 and majority D since 1964
Blue - States that voted majority D before 1964 and majority R since 1964
Green - States that voted majority R both before and after 1964
Orange - States that voted majority D both before and after 1964
Yellow - States that voted for both parties equally before 1964 and majority R since 1964

This seems to imply (correctly) that either the parties or the states switched platforms sometime around 1964.

I'm glad to see this. Platforms evolve with issues as they change. They're partly similar and partly different. It's not as simple as saying they changed it stayed the same. Nice work!
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Intell
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« Reply #43 on: January 17, 2016, 08:55:14 pm »

lmao "the parties never switched platforms"

They didn't, their bases just changed.
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darthebearnc
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« Reply #44 on: January 17, 2016, 08:56:57 pm »

lmao "the parties never switched platforms"

They didn't, their bases just changed.

Huh

Their bases changed because their platforms changed.
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Wolverine22
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« Reply #45 on: January 17, 2016, 09:24:41 pm »

Never.  Their platforms may have changed some over the years, but the switch wasn't as radical as liberals like to pretend it was.  That's just an excuse they make to keep repeating the lie that the racist Democrats joined the GOP after Johnson signed the Civil Rights Act.

That's not a lie at all. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 set in motion the South's turn from D to R, hence why Barry Goldwater won 4 states that would have been easily for Johnson in any other circumstance. They fell in love with Reagan and the GOP in 1980 because of his dog whistle racism, and have voted Republican ever since. Since 1976, the Republicans have run further and further to the right, embracing racism more and more with each passing election.
Further and Further to the right? I don't think Trump is really that conservative. "The Club For Growth" for example hates Trump because only Bernie Sanders is more fiscally liberal than Trump out of all the Presidential Candidates running currently. You think George W. Bush, McCain, Bob Dole, and Romney were racists? You think all white people voted for Reagan because of dog whistle racism?

Reagan went to Emmet Till's hometown and gave a speech about "states' rights." I'll let Lee Atwater explain it further: https://youtube.com/watch?v=MAPeFRNtTP4
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Rockefeller GOP
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« Reply #46 on: January 17, 2016, 09:36:33 pm »

lmao "the parties never switched platforms"

They didn't, their bases just changed.

Huh

Their bases changed because their platforms changed.

I know you're like some high school kid, but parties don't just "switch" platforms.  That's insanity.  If you think it's that simple, there's no way around the fact that you're a moron.
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Old School Republican
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« Reply #47 on: January 17, 2016, 10:12:52 pm »




Red - States that voted majority R before 1964 and majority D since 1964
Blue - States that voted majority D before 1964 and majority R since 1964
Green - States that voted majority R both before and after 1964
Orange - States that voted majority D both before and after 1964
Yellow - States that voted for both parties equally before 1964 and majority R since 1964

This seems to imply (correctly) that either the parties or the states switched platforms sometime around 1964.

Calvin Coolidge was not more liberal then FDR then Wilson in any way. FDR and Wilson dominated the south while Coolidge dominated the North east and west
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« Reply #48 on: January 17, 2016, 11:02:39 pm »

The parties didn't switch. The party coalitions (who votes for which party and more importantly, why) changed.
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RINO Tom
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« Reply #49 on: January 18, 2016, 12:27:21 am »

The parties didn't switch. The party coalitions (who votes for which party and more importantly, why) changed.

And this should be obvious and very distinguishable from the laughable fairytale that "the parties switched" for just about anyone with a working brain.
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